Calvinism vs Scriptural libertarian free will (LFW)

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That was in response to what David said and trying to clarify what he did say?

Okay.

 

[1stcenturylady]

This = salvation for only the self-righteous who would aspire towards God. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must already have before we can believe.

Actually all the faith needed to accept Jesus is given to everyone as a "measure of faith" from the Father. The "faithfulness" to endure to the end is then given as a fruit of the Holy Spirit Who is the gift from Jesus to those who have been baptized with the Spirit. You have been believing the two are one and the same, and no correction to you has been accepted. Why? Because you've been infected with Calvinism false theology, and see scripture ONLY through those glasses.

 

[Dave L]

Actually all the faith needed to accept Jesus is given to everyone as a "measure of faith" from the Father. The "faithfulness" to endure to the end is then given as a fruit of the Holy Spirit Who is the gift from Jesus to those who have been baptized with the Spirit. You have been believing the two are one and the same, and no correction to you has been accepted. Why? Because you've been infected with Calvinism false theology, and see scripture ONLY through those glasses.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = salvation. All do not have the Holy Spirit = are not saved.
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) (KJV 1900)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)

 

[1stcenturylady]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = salvation. All do not have the Holy Spirit = are not saved.
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) (KJV 1900)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)

Again, you are confusing faithfulness with faith. Most translations specify "faithfulness" not the abreviated "faith." It is faithfulness that is a fruit of the Spirit.

To receive the Holy Spirit we must FIRST repent. You are saying you can't repent without the Holy Spirit. You have the cart before the horse. This is not hard and you are a smart man, but you can't seem to understand for some reason - being infected by Calvinism I suspect.

Acts 2:38

 

[ClementofA]

How does one with your perspective pray to God? What is the scope of your petitions and thanksgiving?

What relevance is that to this topic or my post:

How is your notion of God any more one of loving omnipotence if He does not use that power to save the lost?

Love Omnipotent will save everyone. Not one soul will He torture forever or for eternity nuke out of existence.

Why didn't He help Eve when the serpent was deceiving her? Why would He banish mankind from Paradise in the first place?

I'm inclined to the view that was His plan all along. Rom.11:32 explains, in part, the why of it.

Why would an omnipotently loving God choose free will to be the determining factor of a man's salvation when mankind is so lost?

Otherwise you're like a computer operated robot God is making to love or hate Himself. So it's not really you doing the loving, it's God controlling His human puppet like a TV remote control to love Himself.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?

"If I found out that my wife’s love for me has all these years been determined by some biochip in her brain by a will or wills other than her, by forces or persons other
than her, my opinion and experience of HER (as friend, lover, partner, etc.) would drastically change. I would no longer be able to perceive her love for me as HER love for me."

"...What makes me feel right about her loving me is knowing that it’s HER who is loving me. Libertarian choice is just a necessary by-product of this that comes in
further down the line."

"... If God determined your daughter’s ‘love’ for you, then in my view you can’t say “My daughter loves me and if God…” since in my view it’s GOD loving you by means of your daughter who is just merely the instrumentation of God’s actions. That’s functionally equivalent to pantheism in my view."

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[ClementofA]

You speak wicked and blasphemous thoughts toward the true and living God.

If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a "god", then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that "god" would be unjust & make that "god" a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists' actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a "god" would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy "god" except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?

 

[ClementofA]

The fellow is believing notions that do not come from the Bible. Although God wants everyone saved, not everyone will believe His Word and they will continue to rebel against Him.

Yet God's "Word" is opposed to what you just stated.

If someone hated me and was a thief and a murderer, would I welcome them into my house. I would be an idiot if I did, and I would be putting my life in danger. So, God, being wiser than me, do you think that He would allow thieves, murderers, etc., who refuse to repent and turn from their rebellion against Him, to enter His kingdom? The Bible is quite clear that He would not!

And, yet, such people who were such unrighteous murderers, etc, shall enter His kingdom (1 Cor.6:11). And all will, eventually, in this eon or future eons, premortem or postmortem, do so.

"God is a God of infinite and unconditional love...And determinism is...not on the menu because ‘love requires freedom’."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[1stcenturylady]

Love Omnipotent will save everyone. Not one soul will He torture forever or for eternity nuke out of existence.

You have been taught a fairytale, and ignorantly believe universalism.


Revelation 21: 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[ClementofA]

I agree, and there is no evidence of genuine conversion to Christ behind what that person said. To avoid being shut out of the kingdom of God, he needs to get undeceived and genuinely born again of the Spirit of God.

Really? BTW, only Nicene creed believing Christians are supposed to post on this forum.

3But to me, it is the smallest matter that I be examined by you or by a human court. In fact, neither do I examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I have not been justified by this; but the One judging me is the Lord.

5Therefore do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord shall have come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the motives of the hearts; and then the praise will come to each from God.

 

[ClementofA]

Maybe I myself am being a bit presumptuous here, I don't have much experience interacting with ClementofA personally. But if you aren't fully aware of the nature of this person's faith, I wouldn't be quick to draw such a conclusion. It may be possible that, though their language is severe, they are responding out of a disdain against something they are genuinely convinced is against God. Calvinists and the varying brands of opposition (of which I am included in) are often both indignant to the implications of their interlocutor's understanding. I am inclined (not by nature, admittedly) to give grace in presuming they do so out of genuine conviction that would repent if convinced they were corrected, rather than that they are a false convert who hates the true God.

That said, perhaps it is true and ClementofA should be convicted and introspect the genuineness of their faith. But it is healthy not to forget that some of our opponents in theological particulars are genuine brothers seeking to represent God rightly (even when they are perceived to be or actually speaking with excessive tone) and sincerely believe their interlocutor is doing so poorly. I say this as a person who has to remind himself of this daily.

Most importantly, we should watch ourselves as well, being open to correction and prepared to repent of erroneous understandings when convinced they are identified (lest we knowingly be fighting against God).

24And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25He must gentlyreprove those who oppose him, in the hope thatGod may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.

 

[Anto9us]

What do Calvinists think of the FREE WILL OFFERING in the Old Testament?

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

It is not that clem believes those things against God, it is that is what he is seeing as the ultimate conclusion of Calvinism which he is against.

Who is the worst at jumping to conclusions? Him, or those speaking against him?

This implications of Calvinism are a huge problem and I myself am immensely indignant to it. As I said, however, I try to be as graceful as possible and presume innocence before guilt in the sincerity of the Calvinist's desire to represent God. That being said, all the doctrines of God are vastly transformed in their substance by the nature of Calvinism.

Hell, for example, is terrifying either way. But if Calvinism is false, people who go to hell deserve it for freely rejecting the free gift of God that was offered to justify them from their free choices to sin rather than humble themselves and repent (as opposed to Calvinist "free will" where you are like a robot designed with a program that has the variables of being able to slap with your right hand or your left, and then being charged guilty because either way you slap). If Calvinism is true, then the Bible is a charade from beginning to end, with God literally pleading for sinners to repent because He does not desire their death (Ezekiel 33:11), to humble themselves, His "regret" for man's sinfulness before the flood, His looking into men's hearts (1 Samuel 16:7), etc. To compound the problem, not only is life an elaborate charade, but hell is a place where people who were created to sin with no possibility of repentance will consciously endure torment for no authentic decision of their own (again, like the aforementioned robot).

If Calvinism is true, then Ezekiel 33:11 presents a man who embraces a child by the arms, faces him away from himself and says, "Turn back! Turn back and live, for why will you die?", while the child tries with all his might to turn, complaining that he can't because his father holds back and is too strong. The man acknowledges that the child is weaker and unable with any might to turn, but continues to scream "Turn and live!" while he holds him firmly away until he eventually punishes the child for not overpowering him. The calvinist may try to dispute this, saying the child is instead one who doesn't try to turn at all, like the wicked who do not seek God in Psalms 14. The problem is in the world of Calvinism, analogously this man created the child to not turn, and so divinely holds him away while pretentiously pleading his repentant response.

 

[1stcenturylady]

This implications of Calvinism are a huge problem and I myself am immensely indignant to it. As I said, however, I try to be as graceful as possible and presume innocence before guilt in the sincerity of the Calvinist's desire to represent God. That being said, all the doctrines of God are vastly transformed in their substance by the nature of Calvinism.

Hell, for example, is terrifying either way. But if Calvinism is false, people who go to hell deserve it for freely rejecting the free gift of God that was offered to justify them from their free choices to sin rather than humble themselves and repent (as opposed to Calvinist "free will" where you are like a robot designed with a program that has the variables of being able to slap with your right hand or your left, and then being charged guilty because either way you slap). If Calvinism is true, then the Bible is a charade from beginning to end, with God literally pleading for sinners to repent because He does not desire their death (Ezekiel 33:11), to humble themselves, His "regret" for man's sinfulness before the flood, His looking into men's hearts (1 Samuel 16:7), etc. To compound the problem, not only is life an elaborate charade, but hell is a place where people who were created to sin with no possibility of repentance will consciously endure torment for no authentic decision of their own (again, like the aforementioned robot).

If Calvinism is true, then Ezekiel 33:11 presents a man who embraces a child by the arms, faces him away from himself and says, "Turn back! Turn back and live, for why will you die?", while the child tries with all his might to turn, complaining that he can't because his father holds back and is too strong. The man acknowledges that the child is weaker and unable with any might to turn, but continues to scream "Turn and live!" while he holds him firmly away until he eventually punishes the child for not overpowering him. The calvinist may try to dispute this, saying the child is instead one who doesn't try to turn at all, like the wicked who do not seek God in Psalms 14. The problem is in the world of Calvinism, analogously this man created the child to not turn, and so divinely holds him away while pretentiously pleading his repentant response.

If Calvinism believes that God created some to be damned, and some to be saved, then I rest my case against Calvinism.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yet God's "Word" is opposed to what you just stated.

And, yet, such people who were such unrighteous murderers, etc, shall enter His kingdom (1 Cor.6:11). And all will, eventually, in this eon or future eons, premortem or postmortem, do so.

"God is a God of infinite and unconditional love...And determinism is...not on the menu because ‘love requires freedom’."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Jesus came to save us FROM our sins, not IN them. If a person professes Christian conversion and still goes on being a thief and a murderer, then he cannot be truly converted and will be lost.

There are at least three passages in the New Testament that give clear lists of the sins that will shut people out of the kingdom of God if they continue in them. Repentance is an absolute, not negotiable prerequisite for being saved. A person can be never so religious and moral, but if they are habitually practicing any of the sins on those lists, their religion is in vain and they will end up in hell instead of heaven.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Really? BTW, only Nicene creed believing Christians are supposed to post on this forum.

3But to me, it is the smallest matter that I be examined by you or by a human court. In fact, neither do I examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I have not been justified by this; but the One judging me is the Lord.

5Therefore do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord shall have come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the motives of the hearts; and then the praise will come to each from God.

There is a great difference in mouthing the Nicene Creed (which I fully believe, by the way), and being genuinely converted to Christ from the heart. There are definite indications that show the difference between professing religion and being genuinely converted to Christ.

If you really want to know the difference, why not get a copy of the book I recommended earlier in this thread? You can remain complacent if you please and trust that you might make it in the end, but for me, I would rather make really sure that my conversion is real and genuine. What a tragedy for so many who think they are okay and when the get to the gate of heaven they find they are shut out because of some hidden sin that they never repented of. Ignorance is no excuse, because someone who really loves the Lord will go to extra lengths to make sure that their calling and election is sure.

But if you are satisfied where you are, then great! I hope you make it!

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

There is a great difference in mouthing the Nicene Creed (which I fully believe, by the way), and being genuinely converted to Christ from the heart. There are definite indications that show the difference between professing religion and being genuinely converted to Christ.

If you really want to know the difference, why not get a copy of the book I recommended earlier in this thread? You can remain complacent if you please and trust that you might make it in the end, but for me, I would rather make really sure that my conversion is real and genuine. What a tragedy for so many who think they are okay and when the get to the gate of heaven they find they are shut out because of some hidden sin that they never repented of. Ignorance is no excuse, because someone who really loves the Lord will go to extra lengths to make sure that their calling and election is sure.

But if you are satisfied where you are, then great! I hope you make it!

Calvinism aside, relating to true conversion, all you need to make a case is 1 John 3:5-10. There is many more Scriptures to add, but those 5 verses say it as explicitly and potently as it can be communicated.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a "god", then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that "god" would be unjust & make that "god" a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists' actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a "god" would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy "god" except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?

This false god you speak of is a product of your profane imagination

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

What do Calvinists think of the FREE WILL OFFERING in the Old Testament?

17 times "free will offerings" are mentioned in the law.
that means the offerings were not required by the law.
It never means anything to do with mans nature, or mans will.

 

[StillGods]

i think God must like the free will things we offer Him best of all because they are real.

 

[DeaconDean]

If unregenerate humans are totally depraved & can only sin & do not have the ability of contrary choice, then they are just puppets controlled by God & or the forces He has created.

Can you show in scripture where this is stated, that "do not have the ability of contrary choice"? And the thing is, not one single Calvinist has said that.

If man didn't have the ability to "contrary choice" how do you explain that millions of people are doing good things? Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, educating the illiterate?

But here again, that sort of thing won't get an unsaved person to heaven.

As such they are not responsible for their actions.

Again, show me where any Calvinist has made that claim.

For Him to send them to an endless hell for His sins makes Him to be a sadistic monster.

Here again, its not sins that sends one to eternal punishment. It's rejection of salvation through Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Till all are one.