Calvinism is Temporally Minded. Missing Revelation.

[Laura Lee]

My conviction is that God is 100% Sovereign and in control of all things. So, that does make me Reformed. I appreciate John Calvin. Think he had a great mind. Read the Institutes... fully... 15 years ago. Read them more than once. Have read the Canons of Dordt, Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession. So, it's not really that I haven't read Calvinism or have Arminianism leanings.

So, sharing that so that persons don't debate with me that God is Sovereign and we don't have free will. I believe God is Sovereign and we don't have free will.

My conviction is that the 5 Points are temporally centered and miss about 70% of the revelation of scripture relative the eternal whole counsel of God.

For example, it all starts with the creation of mankind and the fall of Adam... and is all about man in time on earth in flesh (the 5 Points of Calvinism).

My debate is that Calvinism is temporally minded... missing revelation... producing errors in the 5 Points.

Rather than looking "outside the box" of Calvinism to "see what was missed"... the 5 Points remain temporally minded... and never see what they missed.

For example: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Calvinism doesn't start where scripture begins in telling the eternal whole counsel. It is temporally centered because it has no position whatsoever in telling the saints where the darkness came from... and "what it has to do with"... the eternal whole counsel plan of God.

Calvinism "doesn't care".

Calvinism "never looks".

Calvinism says, "All mankind fell in Adam"... knowing that God predestined the elect to salvation. And doesn't explore the fall of angels.... that preceded the fall of man.

Why not?? Because Calvinism is man-centered and temporally minded.

I know that will be protested. But, until Calvinists begin exploring the true eternal whole counsel plan of God which includes not only man... but creation... there are things it will miss.

For example... the true purpose of the Genesis creation is not included in the setting forth of Calvinism.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

My position is that the Genesis creation was created for the destruction of the devil and his evil works.

A view that begins and ends in focus on Adam in time... cannot consider an eternal plan in which God's purpose for the Genesis creation and the cross is the destruction of satan.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

In the Calvinist system, man is primary and the exclusive focus of the system... and that is the extent of the system: the primacy of man.

In the Whole Counsel of Scripture, God's war against the evil of sin begins in the angelic realm... the Genesis creation is created for the destruction of the devil... there is no other way to destroy the devil but through the cross of the Genesis creation... this battle is the underlying primacy of the eternal whole counsel plan of God revealed in scripture... and man is ancillary.

My view is that man is not primary but ancillary in the eternal whole counsel plan of God. Calvinism in making man primary and the exclusive focus of it's system has missed 70% of the revelation in scripture and is, as the result, lacking and confused in the 5 points which are outside of the larger context and muddled as the result.

In brief, in failing to study the fall of the angels and the purpose of the Genesis creation and cross in relation to angels... Calvinism has made errors of omission and does not see the eternal whole counsel plan of God revealed in scripture in fullness or in proper context in relation to the whole.

Looking forward to debate!

 

[Laura Lee]

The Calvinist states all things from the view of the fall of man and the redemption of mankind provided through Jesus Christ. Well, the fall of man and the redemption of mankind is the fall and redemption of a temporal race.

Mankind was created as a temporal race. That mankind was created as a temporal race is evidence that mankind is ancillary to a larger plan that is eternal.

To see the eternal purpose... one must "step back further" to see past the temporal race of mankind. Man was made a temporal race because mankind is ancillary to the primary purpose of the cross: the destruction of the devil.

The eternal purpose of God in Jesus Christ is the purpose of the creation of the Genesis creation and mankind in the Genesis creation. (Ephesians 3:9-11; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 1:3-13; John 1:1-17)

The Genesis creation was willfully planned by God to be a temporal creation with a temporal race of man upon it.

The fall of the devil and his angels preceded the creation of Genesis and mankind.

In Genesis 1:1, prior to the creation of the Genesis creation and mankind upon it... darkness pre-existed. Darkness is the evidence of sin. There was a fall of sin that preceded the Genesis creation and could only be the fall of the devil himself and his angels. The darkness is evidence of the fall of angels pre-existent to the Genesis creation.

There was no way to destroy the devil and his angels prior to the Genesis creation and the creation of mankind.

Hebrews 2:14. Satan was destroyed on the cross. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

The devil and his angels fell in spiritual bodies. There was no way to destroy satan and the spirit of sin prior to the Genesis creation and the creation of mankind... because there was no blood in existence.

Blood is in the flesh of man.

Persons are so focused on man, they do not see the larger conflict between God and satan.

Jesus cried out in the Garden of Gethsemane for a different way if possible to take the cup from Him. But, in God the Father's will... there was no other way.

A man-centered view thinks of only the redemption of man... that there was no other way to redeem mankind other than the cross of Jesus Christ. This is true. But, I declare it is ancillary not primary.

Primarily, because the fall of the devil and his angels preceded the creation of the Genesis creation and mankind, there was no other way to destroy satan but through the cross.

A man-centered focus will only consider the redemption of mankind declaring the destruction of the devil ancillary to the redemption of mankind.

But, I declare this is a reversal of the thinking of God Himself.

God Himself knew that the cross of Jesus Christ, the Genesis creation, and the creation of mankind... was the only way to destroy satan.

To God Himself from His eternal mind, the destruction of satan was primary and the redemption of mankind ancillary.

In fact, the Genesis creation was created for the destruction of satan... and mankind himself as a race was created for the destruction of satan.

Calvinism is wearing temporal blinders that does not see what is beyond it's peripheral eternal vision... as it focuses on man rather than God Himself.

To agree with God is to declare this, "The Genesis creation was created as a temporal creation in which the temporal race of man would be created having flesh and blood... so that Jesus Christ would take on flesh and blood by which to destroy the devil. For the devil could not be destroyed any other way."

That is the eternal whole counsel plan of God.

Man is not primary. Man is ancillary.

The Genesis creation is not primary. The Genesis creation is ancillary.

The Genesis creation is a ticking time bomb predestined to be destroyed with the flesh and blood bodies of mankind... for both these were intended by God to be temporal... and were brought into existence quite primarily to be the "better mousetrap" into which the devil would be captured and destroyed.

God willfully put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil into the Garden of Eden because it was the plan of God to entrap the devil into the flesh of man... so that Jesus would then take on flesh and blood... and take the sin of all the world into Himself in order to destroy the devil on the cross in His death.

That's why the Genesis creation was created... and this temporary creation and race of mankind.

Calvinism is not solving the logic puzzle... because it is temporally and man-centered in it's view.

Step back and see the larger picture.

If you were in Heaven talking to God when the devil and his angels fell... what would He tell you was His plan to destroy the devil??

He told you in the Bible. See before time and think before time.

God pre-planned to create the temporary Genesis creation and the temporary race of mankind for this purpose: to manifest Himself as God made a man to destroy the devil on the cross.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So long as you think from a central view positioned in time and in flesh on earth... you cannot see the eternal plan from the position of God Himself... who planned all in Himself in eternity.

It is an illusion to think from the perspective of mankind... because you are not seeing that mankind is not primary but ancillary to the primary objective of the cross and Jesus Christ: destruction of the devil and his evil works.

The redemption of mankind is an automatic result of destroying the devil... and is not the reason for the creation of the Genesis creation and mankind.

Rather, the Genesis creation and mankind were created for the primary purpose of destruction of the devil... and this is the only way... in the manifold wisdom of God in His Sovereign eternal whole counsel plan... that the devil COULD BE destroyed (and was).

No, we are here for the destruction of satan... and this world and our human flesh... is the mousetrap of his destruction in the manifold wisdom of God.

It was necessary in God's plan for Adam and Eve to fall into sin... and it was satan's "death sentence" in the larger view.

Who hath known the mind of the Lord or been His counsellor??

 

[Inkfingers]

The fall of the devil and his angels preceded the creation of Genesis and mankind.

How do you compare that belief with Ezekiel 28:13-15, where Satan is in the Garden and apparently has not fallen at that time?

In Genesis 1:1, prior to the creation of the Genesis creation and mankind upon it... darkness pre-existed. Darkness is the evidence of sin. There was a fall of sin that preceded the Genesis creation and could only be the fall of the devil himself and his angels. The darkness is evidence of the fall of angels pre-existent to the Genesis creation.

I think you are taking "darkness" the wrong way there. In Jewish cosmology, the day begins at nightfall (so in darkness), and thus it would be simple for them to craft a creation story that begins in darkness also.

 

[Laura Lee]

There is a "house of darkness"; a "doors of the shadow of death"... the "gates of death". Does this sound like hell? Like when Jesus says the gates of hell would not prevail against His church?

God speaks in Genesis of the First Day... bringing darkness into the Genesis creation... before there was any sun or moon or stars or even a firmament of Heaven.

God speaks of the First Day in Job 38 when He laid the foundation of the earth. Jesus, the Light, is the foundation of the Genesis creation and this foundation was laid when God said, "Let there be light". God declares that He opened the gates of death... the doors of the shadow of death... and darkness came into the Genesis creation.

This is not about man. This is about God letting spiritual darkness out of hell into the Genesis creation... on the First Day.

This is not a Bible "all about man". The Bible says that if a man who is nothing thinks himself something he deceiveth himself. No, man is nothing in this plan. Man is a temporal race according to his flesh.

To make man central to one's theology... primary... is to miss 70% of Bible revelation, I testify. The doctrines of man are elementary and principle doctrines. Hebrews 6.

If we are to go onto maturity... we must go past Calvinism into full counsel eternal whole counsel revelation... and we must examine God's plan from His view.

On the First Day... Jesus Christ entered the creation of Genesis with the morning stars... and in the process opened the gates of death... the doors of the shadow of death... the house of darkness... hell this must assuredly be... and let the darkness into the Genesis creation.

This is a battle between God and satan we are witnessing here in our human lives. To think that man is central is a vision turned inward... that never thinks to examine what is declared in scripture that doesn't revolve around man.

Well, God didn't put Job 38 in the Bible because none of this mattered in His eternal whole counsel plan. God doesn't give us information that is unnecessary to revelation of His eternal whole counsel plan... as He declares He opened the gates and doors of the house of hell to let darkness into this creation.

These are not things a Calvinist studies. Can the eternal whole counsel plan of God be fully revealed if we do not see these things?

I say, "No, because, in order to 'check the 5 Points" against the whole counsel... we must see the whole counsel."

I've checked the 5 Points against the whole counsel. They are in error. But you will never find the errors until you see more of the whole counsel. That's why the barriers must be broken to see all of the whole counsel... then the 5 Points can be revised and updated to be fully correct in alignment with the whole counsel of scripture.

They are frightfully errant today... and the errors are severe.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Job 38 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel
by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man;
for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth,
as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof,
and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 and brake up for it my decreed place,
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further:
and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days;
and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 that it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden,
and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea?
or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee?
or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth?
declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth?
and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 that thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof,
and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

 

[Laura Lee]

There is a "house of darkness"; a "doors of the shadow of death"... the "gates of death". Does this sound like hell? Like when Jesus says the gates of hell would not prevail against His church?

God speaks in Genesis of the First Day... bringing darkness into the Genesis creation... before there was any sun or moon or stars or even a firmament of Heaven.

God speaks of the First Day in Job 38 when He laid the foundation of the earth. Jesus, the Light, is the foundation of the Genesis creation and this foundation was laid when God said, "Let there be light". God declares that He opened the gates of death... the doors of the shadow of death... and darkness came into the Genesis creation.

This is not about man. This is about God letting spiritual darkness out of hell into the Genesis creation... on the First Day.

This is not a Bible "all about man". The Bible says that if a man who is nothing thinks himself something he deceiveth himself. No, man is nothing in this plan. Man is a temporal race according to his flesh.

To make man central to one's theology... primary... is to miss 70% of Bible revelation, I testify. The doctrines of man are elementary and principle doctrines. Hebrews 6.

If we are to go onto maturity... we must go past Calvinism into full counsel eternal whole counsel revelation... and we must examine God's plan from His view.

On the First Day... Jesus Christ entered the creation of Genesis with the morning stars... and in the process opened the gates of death... the doors of the shadow of death... the house of darkness... hell this must assuredly be... and let the darkness into the Genesis creation.

This is a battle between God and satan we are witnessing here in our human lives. To think that man is central is a vision turned inward... that never thinks to examine what is declared in scripture that doesn't revolve around man.

Well, God didn't put Job 38 in the Bible because none of this mattered in His eternal whole counsel plan. God doesn't give us information that is unnecessary to revelation of His eternal whole counsel plan... as He declares He opened the gates and doors of the house of hell to let darkness into this creation.

These are not things a Calvinist studies. Can the eternal whole counsel plan of God be fully revealed if we do not see these things?

I say, "No, because, in order to 'check the 5 Points" against the whole counsel... we must see the whole counsel."

I've checked the 5 Points against the whole counsel. They are in error. But you will never find the errors until you see more of the whole counsel. That's why the barriers must be broken to see all of the whole counsel... then the 5 Points can be revised and updated to be fully correct in alignment with the whole counsel of scripture.

They are frightfully errant today... and the errors are severe.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Job 38 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel
by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man;
for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth,
as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof,
and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 and brake up for it my decreed place,
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further:
and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days;
and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 that it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden,
and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea?
or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee?
or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth?
declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth?
and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 that thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof,
and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

 

[Laura Lee]

How do you compare that belief with Ezekiel 28:13-15, where Satan is in the Garden and apparently has not fallen at that time?

There is a Mount Zion on earth. There is a Mount Zion in Heaven. Heaven above us has terra... a River... a Tree of Life... New Jerusalem. Satan fell before the Genesis creation was created. Therefore, Ezekiel 28:13-15 reveals that the devil fell from the Garden of Eden above us that exists in the original creation above us in which God created the angels.

The Garden of Eden on earth, like the Mount Zion on earth, is a "replication" on an earthly level of what pre-existed above.

There is a Jerusalem here... and New Jerusalem above.

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake 22 but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Things on earth throughout scripture are a "pattern" of that which is above. The Bible tells us to think of the things above, not of earth. So, when we see a Garden of Eden on earth... we should first think that it must be a "pattern" of that which is above. Because there was darkness pre-existent to the Genesis creation... and God has made a "Mount Zion" on earth that is a "shadow" and "pattern" of that which is above... so, then we know there is a Garden of Eden above us... and this is where the devil fell from.

The devil did not fall in sin on earth. The devil fell in sin before the Genesis creation. There could be no darkness in Genesis 1 if there were not darkness in existence at the time. And there could be no darkness without sin.

Hebrews 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

I think you are taking "darkness" the wrong way there. In Jewish cosmology, the day begins at nightfall (so in darkness), and thus it would be simple for them to craft a creation story that begins in darkness also.

The Jewish people did not craft a creation story. The Holy Spirit gave these words.

There was neither sun nor moon nor stars nor even a firmament of Heaven on the First Day. Light and darkness came into the Genesis creation.

Jesus is the Light. Job 38 reveals that God opened the doors of death and hte gates of the shadow of death... the house of darkness... to release the darkness into the Genesis creation.

The Light, Jesus, was Spiritual: God.

The darkness likewise is testified to be spiritual darkness. The principalities and powers of darkness are devils. Ephesians 6.

God bless.

 

[Inkfingers]

The Garden of Eden on earth, like the Mount Zion on earth, is a "replication" on an earthly level of what pre-existed above.

Nothing in that passage suggests a heavenly Eden.

The Jewish people did not craft a creation story. The Holy Spirit gave these words.

The Bible is inspired but not dictated by God. We are not Muslims making claims like they do with the Quran.

There was neither sun nor moon nor stars nor even a firmament of Heaven on the First Day. Light and darkness came into the Genesis creation.

Jesus is the Light. Job 38 reveals that God opened the doors of death and hte gates of the shadow of death... the house of darkness... to release the darkness into the Genesis creation.

The Light, Jesus, was Spiritual: God.

The darkness likewise is testified to be spiritual darkness. The principalities and powers of darkness are devils. Ephesians 6.

God bless.

No, evil is compared to darkness because without light we cannot see.

That does not mean darkness itself is evil; if it were, God would not have made day and night but would have all time equally lit.

The words are simply Jewish cosmology.

 

[Laura Lee]

Nothing in that passage suggests a heavenly Eden.

Satan fell from the Garden of Eden. It is illogical to declare that Satan fell after the Genesis creation was created. There could be no darkness in existence were there no sin pre-existent to the Genesis creation.

The Garden of Eden is Paradise. The scripture declares that Heaven is the Paradise of God. Scripture clearly states that Paradise, the Garden of God, is above where New Jerusalem is.

The Holy Mountain stated in Ezekiel 28 is the Mount Zion that is above... and there is the Paradise, the Garden of God above as scripture declares.

My case is irrefutable. You cannot refute and declare that there is no Garden of God in the Paradise of Heaven. You cannot declare, through scripture, that there is no Paradise in the Heaven above us. Scripture declares there is.

There are only 2 choices:

1. The devil and his angels fell before the Genesis creation; or
2. The devil and his angels fell after the Genesis creation.

I have proven irrefutably that they fell before:

1. Darkness pre-existed the Genesis creation proving sin existed prior to the Genesis creation... that is an irrefutable case right there.
2. I have proven that Heaven above is called "Paradise" and this equals the Garden of God. "Eden" means "Garden of God" and "Paradise"... and exists in Heaven. Of course there is a Garden of God in Heaven above us.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond,
the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper,
the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes
was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


2 Corinthians 12:4 how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The Bible is inspired but not dictated by God. We are not Muslims making claims like they do with the Quran.

2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost gave the words. They are not crafted by men.

No, evil is compared to darkness because without light we cannot see.

That does not mean darkness itself is evil; if it were, God would not have made day and night but would have all time equally lit.

The words are simply Jewish cosmology.

The darkness in the present creation exists because the devil and his angels as the shadow of death were ushered into this creation on the First Day.

There is no darkness in the Heaven above us at all.

There will be no darkness in this world in the recreation. Darkness is assuredly a clear sign of the presence of evil.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

You may not speak to me out of your own imagination.

You may only speak the Word of God.

This is a scriptural case and may only be refuted by scripture, not your imagination. The Word of God is the Authority.

2 Corinthians 10:5 [Full Chapter]
casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

To speak the imagination of man is to allow the devil to speak.

Speak the Word only and discuss scripture... or it is the devil speaking.

Sola scripture.

 

[Inkfingers]

Satan fell from the Garden of Eden. It is illogical to declare that Satan fell after the Genesis creation was created. There could be no darkness in existence were there no sin pre-existent to the Genesis creation.

The garden was planted, eastward, in Eden.

Planted.

Things don't get planted in heaven.

The Holy Ghost gave the words. They are not crafted by men.

"Moved by" is not "dictated to".

The darkness in the present creation exists because the devil and his angels as the shadow of death were ushered into this creation on the First Day.

Not true.

God seperated the darkness from the light and said it is good. He did not say the light is good and the darkness is bad. All was good.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The garden was planted, eastward, in Eden.

Planted.

Things don't get planted in heaven.



"Moved by" is not "dictated to".


Not true.

God seperated the darkness from the light and said it is good. He did not say the light is good and the darkness is bad. All was good.

I wonder if it's a good idea to encourage her, Inky.

 

[Laura Lee]

The garden was planted, eastward, in Eden.

Planted.

Things don't get planted in heaven.

On earth, cities are built by human hands. Who planted the Garden on earth? God did. God does not plant by human hands... yet God planted the Garden on earth. God planted the Garden in Heaven as well... yet without human hands. God said... and it was created. God creates.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Genesis 2:8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

It is God who planted the Garden on earth. You say God cannot plant a Garden on earth?? He did.

How can you say God did not plant a Garden in Heaven?? Of course He did. The scripture so declares.

God Himself likewise built the City of New Jerusalem... yet not with human hands. God planted a Garden above us, formed Mount Zion above us, and build the City of New Jerusalem above us... all without human hands.

You have no scripture... only a vain imagination in human supposition that God is incapable of planting a Garden above us in Heaven. Scripture declares that Garden is above us. And we see God's ability to plant a Garden in His planting of the replication of the Garden above on earth.

You have no scriptural case. You have only your own unbelief in what the Bible declares. You have not refuted me. I have an irrefutable scriptural case.

"Moved by" is not "dictated to".

Of course it is. Numbers 23:5 And the Lord put a word in Balaam’s mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus thou shalt speak.

Numbers 23:16 And the Lord met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus.

God gives the words.

God seperated the darkness from the light and said it is good. He did not say the light is good and the darkness is bad. All was good.

The darkness pre-existed. God spoke "Let there be light". God never said the darkness was good. God said that the Light was good. What God brought forth was good. The pre-existent darkness was evil. But, God said the light alone was good... and separated the light that was good from the darkness. The darkness was not good.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

If you call darkness good... then you call evil good. God Himself calls darkness evil.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Do you love darkness rather than light??

 

[Laura Lee]

I wonder if it's a good idea to encourage her, Inky.

Neither do you have scripture... but your own vain imagination.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

I made an irrefutable scriptural case... you scoff... and you think your scoffing is of greater import and power than the Word of God.

 

[Laura Lee]

**I have proven through the Word of God that the darkness pre-existed God saying "Let there be light".

The darkness is always evil. (There is no darkness in God or in Heaven; scripture consistently declares darkness to be evil and satan; God never said the darkness was good but rather declared on the First Day that ONLY the Light was good.)

I have proven that there is a Mount Zion above in Heaven above by the City of New Jerusalem and there is a Garden of Eden there.

Ezekiel 28 speaks of Mount Zion above and the Garden of God, the Paradise, above us in Heaven.

The devil and his angels fell from the first estate of Heaven above us per the whole counsel of God... and they comprised the darkness that preceded the Genesis creation. They, the darkness, were brought into the Genesis creation to be the darkness of the First Day.

The principalities and powers of darkness are here... and were present from the First Day... being the darkness itself that pre-existed God stating "Let there be light".

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Man says, "I do not believe"... yet I made an irrefutable scriptural case.

 

[Laura Lee]

The battle we are witnessing, and are a party to, here on earth is the battle between God and satan... good and evil... darkness and light.

This is the battle. Man is not primary. Man is ancillary. The battle is between God and satan... good and evil... darkness and light.

What is man? Man is nothing per the testimony of scripture.

Galatians 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Any person who makes man central to the eternal whole counsel plan of God is self-deceived.

The darkness preceded the Genesis creation... and was therefore spiritual darkness. The Genesis creation is God bringing forth a material creation that is seen from the spiritual that is unseen.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The worlds were framed by the Word of God. What is seen, that which is material, came forth from the immaterial and incorporeal spiritual.

The darkness that preceded the Genesis creation of the material which can be seen... was quite obvious incorporeal and immaterial spiritual darkness.

The First Day, God brought the spiritual darkness into the Genesis creation and from it material darkness appears that we "see". That spiritual darkness is the devil and his angels as declared throughout scripture and is evil. The darkness we see is the fruit of evil.

The Last Day, God will destroy the darkness destroying satan by the brightness of His coming.

The purpose of the Genesis creation is that darkness would be brought into this realm for destruction.

Pre-existent darkness (therefore immaterial and incorporeal - spiritual - darkness; not "natural or material darkness of the Genesis creation") was brought into the Genesis creation:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Jesus destroys the principalities and powers of darkness on the cross:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus destroys satan (darkness) by the brightness (Light) of His coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

On the Last Day, the darkness and night of the First Day are destroyed out of existence.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Zechariah 14:7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The entire purpose of the Genesis creation is to bring spiritual, immaterial and incorporeal darkness (the devil and his angels) into the Genesis creation to merge them with the material of the Genesis creation in the flesh of man. Then Jesus takes on material flesh and blood and destroys the darkness (the devil) on the cross. Then Jesus returns to destroy darkness and night out of existence destroying the devil himself who is the elemental and principality darkness... out of existence.

This is the primary purpose for the Genesis creation, creation of mankind, and the cross declared by scripture.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

God is Sovereign. He knows the end from the beginning. Looking at the First Day and seeing the result of the Last Day, it is clearly evident that the darkness was brought into the Genesis creation on the First day for destruction on the Last Day... as Jesus the Light destroys the devil the darkness.

God knows His plans. God ordained the entire plan of the Genesis creation creating the Genesis creation for the destruction of the devil and his angels brought into the creation on the First Day and utterly destroyed on the Last Day.

This is God's eternal whole counsel plan.

If you don't see it, and are not teachable, having no respect for God and His Word... then scoff.

But you have proven nothing in so doing. Only scripture proves God's plan and counsel.

I have given an irrefutable case. No man refutes scripturally nor can he. The scripture is plain.

 

[Laura Lee]

Calvinism has no comprehension or vision or understanding of the spiritual realms and principalities. Man is so central and exclusive in the 5 Points of Calvinism... that Calvinism "doesn't care" and "doesn't look".

That's why I say that Calvinism is missing 70% of the revelation of scripture... and majors in the minors making man central when man is not central to God's eternal whole counsel plan.

Calvinism is like a man who is watching a ballgame fixated on the 3rd inning. He cares not how the teams were formed, how they arrived, and cares not for the first and second innings...nor the 4th -9th innings.

Calvinism declares, "I see what happens in the 3rd inning!" and calls this the "whole game". It is not.

Calvinism must expand it's horizons to study the principalities and powers of darkness... the realms of Heaven... step back to see the end from the beginning of the Genesis creation at the supernatural level of the principalities and powers... see before time and after time... and see one whole plan... or it's a 3rd inning level revelation of a ballgame.

That's not full revelation. And to declare it full revelation is vain.

Ephesians 3:10 to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Colossians 1:16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[BryanW92]

Calvinism has no comprehension or vision or understanding of the spiritual realms and principalities. Man is so central and exclusive in the 5 Points of Calvinism... that Calvinism "doesn't care" and "doesn't look".

That's why I say that Calvinism is missing 70% of the revelation of scripture... and majors in the minors making man central when man is not central to God's eternal whole counsel plan.

Calvinism is like a man who is watching a ballgame fixated on the 3rd inning. He cares not how the teams were formed, how they arrived, and cares not for the first and second innings...nor the 4th -9th innings.

Calvinism declares, "I see what happens in the 3rd inning!" and calls this the "whole game". It is not.

Calvinism must expand it's horizons to study the principalities and powers of darkness... the realms of Heaven... step back to see the end from the beginning of the Genesis creation at the supernatural level of the principalities and powers... see before time and after time... and see one whole plan... or it's a 3rd inning level revelation of a ballgame.

That's not full revelation. And to declare it full revelation is vain.

When I was a Methodist, my theology was all about man and what man does and how man accepts God. God was little more than a caretaker who didn't do much except to respond to man's actions.

When I became a Calvinist, all that changed. Man became an extra with God taking the entire stage. I had to worry about the supernormal things because it all hung in the balance, waiting for me to tip the scales.

Now, I can rest comfortably that the supernormal things are there, waiting for me, because God said they would be and because I am confident in my election.

I'm not really sure what you are saying in all these posts. Are you writing them as you type or is this some prepared article or sermon? My experience is that Calvinism is anything but man-centered, which is what I understand that you are saying.

 

[Laura Lee]

When I was a Methodist, my theology was all about man and what man does and how man accepts God. God was little more than a caretaker who didn't do much except to respond to man's actions.

When I became a Calvinist, all that changed. Man became an extra with God taking the entire stage. I had to worry about the supernormal things because it all hung in the balance, waiting for me to tip the scales.

Now, I can rest comfortably that the supernormal things are there, waiting for me, because God said they would be and because I am confident in my election.

I'm not really sure what you are saying in all these posts. Are you writing them as you type or is this some prepared article or sermon? My experience is that Calvinism is anything but man-centered, which is what I understand that you are saying.

Part 1 response

Thank you for asking a question and attempting to understand what I am saying.

First, Calvinism is not man-centered in that it declares God to be 100% Sovereign and in control of all things... declaring that man does not have free will. To declare that man has free will is puffed up vanity, delusion, and pride in sin in rebellion. Heaven is Heaven because all is entirely sanctified in God's Spirit in full reverent submission to the Spirit of God. The desirable state of a being is entire submission to the Spirit of God and thus entire sanctification in the Spirit of God. To promote "free will" and thus the sovereignty of man is an abomination and the pride of the devil in his fall from grace in sin.

With this view, I fully and heartily agree in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, I would declare that Calvinism is Christ-centered in it's foundational declarations of the Sovereignty of God and rejection of "free will theology" declaring all is by grace alone and God alone (and all the alones of the Reformation) in it's theological system.

What I am saying is that Calvinism is woefully man-centered in the extent of it's vision of the eternal whole counsel of God with a singular tunnel vision therein upon the flesh of man. This is the man-centeredness of Calvinism manifesting.

The foundation of the Sovereignty of God and the function of the Kingdom of God and Heaven being wholly by grace of God's own Spirit alone by the will of God the Father is accurate in Calvinism. (I am a Reformed systematic theologian... with zero arminianism leanings whatsoever.)

I declare that due to the limited scope and temporal tunnel vision of Calvinism, Calvinism is "missing" approximately (more or less) 70% of the revelation of the eternal whole counsel plan of God.

Due to lack of 70% of the scriptures contextual awareness in the missing 70% revelation of scripture, the 5 Points are in error.

For example, "Total Depravity" is the condition of the reprobate only and not the elect. This is one error in the 5 Points of Calvinism in it's stated positions... in addition to the 5 Points of Calvinism "missing" the 70% of corresponding scriptural revelation of the eternal whole counsel plan of God.

I am declaring that Calvinism in it's temporally minded tunnel vision fixation on focus of the flesh of man... is in errors of

1. omission missing 70% of the eternal whole counsel revelation;
2. rightly dividing it's points due to it's errors of omission and incapacity thereby to place the 5 Points in larger context accurately and pristinely.

This is what I declare to be the errors of Calvinism in temporal mindedness and man-centeredness.

I have proven that the entire purpose of the Genesis creation is destruction of the devil and his kingdom: darkness.

Because Calvinism fixates upon the flesh of man in time on earth... it does not hit "bullseye" in the purpose of the Genesis creation declared by scripture.

Why does it "miss it"?? Because the Calvinist system does not examine the spiritual dimension and posits all of it's points in relation to the flesh and experience of man in time on earth in flesh... never seeing that mankind as a race is ancillary. Flesh is ancillary.

As I go further, perhaps Calvinists will begin to agree with me... seeing the 70% of revelation of the eternal whole counsel that Calvinism never pauses to consider in it's tunnel vision.

How can one comprehend that Total Depravity is true only of the reprobate and not the elect... if one only fixates on flesh?? One cannot. It is an error that cannot be corrected until the temporal blinders of tunnel vision are broken... and one sees past the temporal into the eternal... past the material into the incorporeal spiritual. God is Spirit. It's rather "ignoring God" to fixate on flesh never considering the spirit of the elect and reprobate in contrast to the Spirit of God. (The elect being born of the Spirit of God in spirit as the seed of promise; the reprobate being children of the devil as the seed of the serpent.)

Let's review a couple of things to "see more" now that it is established and proven irrefutably that the purpose of the Genesis creation and the cross is the destruction of the devil and his evil works (darkness and thus the entire kingdom of darkness which is in the Genesis creation and pre-existed).

Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Now, we see that according to the flesh, the elect were children of wrath by nature even as others.

That's the flesh.

Calvinism stops there as if "that is all".

But Jesus declares:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Therefore, the flesh is one level. The spirit is another level.

Is the flesh of all mankind in the fall "totally depraved"?? I would answer, "yes". The scripture declares nothing good dwells in the flesh. Therefore, the flesh in the fall was fully corrupted by sin. Thus, the flesh of all mankind in the fall of Adam is "totally depraved"

But we, as human beings, are not mere flesh. We are spirit, soul, and body (flesh).

Jesus Christ declares that we the saints are elect according to foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We are born of the Spirit as the sons of God being born in spirit of God.

John 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

When the scripture declares that we are elect according to foreknowledge, it is as if Calvinism declares that our FLESH was foreknown by God... rather than our spirits.

So, Calvinism is making the same error of Arminianism in "seeing down the corridor of time" making foreknowledge and election of no content but rather being FORESIGHT.

But scripture declares that our election is not according to mere FORESIGHT... but is the content of our spirits and not our flesh.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The scripture declares that we the elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world.... chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Our spirit man does not come forth from the flesh of Adam. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Our election is according to a pre-destined and foreknown spirit literally IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world... and we are born FROM CHRIST and THROUGH CHRIST in our most holy salvations: our spirits are born of God's Spirit.

This time of salvation in which our spirits are born of God... is predestined before the foundation of the world.

Our spirits born of God do not come forth from the flesh of Adam but rather the Spirit of God.

Yes, all mankind fell according to the flesh in Adam.

However, what was in Christ in spirit predestined to be born of the Holy Spirit... never changed in the fall of Adam.

Adam fell according to the flesh in his sin.

Adam fell in his body.

But, the fall of Adam had no power to alter nor change what was already pre-existent in the heart of God in the Spirit of God: the spirits of the elect who were IN CHRIST and predestined to be born of the Spirit.

Now, in the loins of Adam were all mankind that was to be born of his flesh.

Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

So, even as Levi was in the loins of Abraham and was counted to have paid tithes to Melchisedec with Abraham who paid the tithes (Levi being in the loins physically of Abraham)... so too all mankind according to the flesh of Adam was in Adam and was counted to have sinned with Adam when Adam sinned.

So, Calvinism is proven correct in stating that all mankind sinned in Adam with Adam being in his loins in the sight of God Almighty.

But, that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, our flesh became fallen according to the flesh and according to the flesh we were all likewise with the reprobate the children of wrath.

But, what Calvinism never addresses, nor considers, nor sees... because Calvinism is singleminded in tunnel vision with focus on flesh... is that our spirits as the elect sons of God in Christ are not born from the flesh of Adam.

Our spirits come forth from Christ and are born of God as the elect.

And, even as our bodies were in the loins of Adam awaiting birth according to the flesh... likewise, our spirits were in Christ in spirit awaiting birth according to the Spirit.

For we were elect foreknown of God in Christ before the foundation of the world.

All mankind was literally in the loins of Adam in his creation simply awaiting "when they would be born in the fullness of times"... but literally present in the loins of Adam though not yet conceived in their generations and times.

Well, this same truth of our presence in the loins of Adam according to the flesh of Adam... was/is true of the elect in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Our spirits were/are literally in Christ, though we had not yet been born of the Spirit... nor having human bodies either born of Adam.

There is a two-tier level of spirit and flesh.

Now, I do declare with the scripture that my spirit which was to be born of God in Christ was in Christ before the foundation of the world... whileas my flesh which was to be born of the flesh of Adam was in the loins of Adam in his creation.

And I do declare with scripture that I, as God's elect, was a child of wrath according to the flesh with all the rest.

I do declare with scripture that according to the flesh... the elect and reprobate are exactly the same.

However, I do declare with scripture that I am not the same as the reprobate nor am I equal to the reprobate in my spirit as the elect (now saved) foreknown by God!

The fall of Adam had no power to alter my election! Nor the pre-existent state of my spirit in God in Christ as I awaited being born of the Spirit (even as I awaited being born of the flesh of Adam in physical conception)!

Therefore, my pre-existent spirit in Christ foreknown of God in Christ before the foundation of the world (from which as I was born like unto being born of the flesh of Adam being in his loins)... was not touched, moved, nor altered in one whit by the fall of Adam in his flesh.

My spirit in Christ remained fully pristine and righteous... though being conceived in sin in this flesh my spirit did not enter my body at conception... but rather now requires as Jesus stated that I be born again of the Spirit in spirit.

I declare with scripture that as the elect of God in Christ... I am not flesh but spirit as the child of God born of God's Spirit.

When was my spirit... EVER "totally depraved"?? WHY IT NEVER WAS!!

I simply was not yet born!!

Declaring the flesh of the elect to be fully fallen is acceptable.

But how dare any declare me in my spirit foreknown of God and elect of God in Christ "the child of the devil" according to my spirit??

I never was. Never.

I was always the child of God in election though not yet born of the Spirit for my election was in Christ before the foundation of the world in literal seed form in the "loins of the heart of Jesus" in God in Christ... even as my flesh was in literal seed form in the "loins of Adam" according to the flesh.

Calvinism errs in declaring any elect saint of God in Christ "totally depraved" considering only the flesh.

Calvinism errs in declaring any elect saint of God in Christ "the child of the devil" which is according to spirit not flesh.

 

[Laura Lee]

Part 2

Adam is a man.

We are all children of Adam according to the flesh. (Then in salvation we become children of God - the 2nd Adam - and of His body which is a Heavenly not earthly body today... having transcended, of course, into a Heavenly body now seated at the right hand of God the Father in which He will return. We will gain the redemption of our bodies as a Heavenly body at the return of Jesus as is to say... and this earthly body will be changed then. We have now the body of Christ in Him...a nd this a Heavenly body in Him... I should say.)

But at spirit level... I never had a spirit conceived of the devil's spirit that was my spirit.

I was elect of God in Christ foreknown before the foundation of the world... and I even before the foundation of the world was a child of God elect of God by foreknowledge in my spirit... and am known by God even in my formation in the womb according to the flesh of Adam to be His child and His elect separated from the womb unto Him and appointed to salvation.

So, Calvinism errs and errs greatly in declaring that the elect are/were ever "children of the devil" which would be spiritually in a spirit conceived of the devil himself in pre-existence before the foundation of the world.

My spirit was/is a child of God in foreknowledge and pre-existence before I was born of the Spirit even as I was in the loins of Adam in pre-existence as Levi was seen and known by God in the loins of Abraham in pre-existence before Levi was born.

Calvinism is 2nd grade level compared to doctorate level.... because it considers not these things... and attributes to the elect what is only true of the reprobate.

Yes, the reprobate are totally depraved spirit, soul, and body. The elect are never such.

The elect are never children of the devil. And this is why Jesus says that His sheep know His voice. They are elect according to foreknowledge and have always been the children of God in spirit and in truth and never in their spirits lost this status in Him... but were retained in Him... and awaiting being born of the Spirit in salvation... but are fully assured by election according to foreknowledge to be so.

Calvinism does err in equating the elect and reprobate at spirit level... simply because at flesh level they are the same.

Yes, the elect are dead in sins and trespasses according to the flesh... and it is no wonder to us to know that that which is of the Spirit is wholly by Grace in God's own Sovereign will and power that we be born of the Spirit having no power in our flesh or the will of our flesh... and knowing that our will in our spirits is derived wholly of God's Spirit of whom we are born.

But being dead in sins and trespasses according to the flesh does not alter nor change the election of the saints which is by foreknowledge in God in Christ in literal pre-existence no different than our physical pre-existence in teh loins of Adam... unalterable... and assured of salvation in predestination of birth through Jesus Christ.

And Calvinism, being temporally minded with flesh fixation in Adam in time on earth... never comprehends our election and predestination at spirit level in Christ.

This is one tier Calvinism does not see.

And the error made is to declare election unconditional when it is according to a literal foreknowledge in Christ; and to declare the elect "totally depraved" with the reprobate as children of the devil when we never were.

Seeing the spirit level... is what is needed. And all I have stated is the testimony of scripture at the spirit level that Calvinism never looks to see nor incorporates in it's system.

To see the spirit level and incorporate it into the Calvinist system through the Word of God is to correct the Calvinist system.

Enough here for now and thank you again for your question and effort to understand what I am saying.

Before judging what I say, it is necessary to first understand it rather than assuming if one has not heard it that it is not worth attempting to understand... and dismissing as these others have.

When you truly understand what I am saying, only then can you fairly measure it against the scripture.

God bless!

 

[Laura Lee]

The scripture declares that before Jacob and Esau were conceived in the womb... their states as elect or reprobate were already decided.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

"Being" the sheep is a "state of being" that is not according to the flesh but the Spirit. The elect shall be born of God and they were foreknown of God before the foundation of the world... not predestined in mere "decision" that is intellectual... but spiritual state of being being literally "in Christ" from whom they in spirit shall come forth in spirit in birth.

Romans 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

It is not "merely intellectual" or "arbitrary" on God's part. It is a literal spiritual state of being in Christ as seed not yet born... the seed of promise... that is literal and predestined from position "in Christ" in seed form before/from the foundation of the world... even as all mankind was literally in "seed form" according to the flesh in physical creation in Adam.

What is the "difference" between Esau and Jacob?? There is no difference at flesh level. For all are equally born of the flesh of Adam.

But, God plainly declares throughout scripture that the reality of mankind is two tiered:

1. spirit
2. flesh

The exact sameness of Jacob and Esau was clearly shown to us by God... that their flesh was exactly the same at the level of being twins in the same womb of the same mother having the same father.

God is declaring that before their births... God differentiated between Esau and Jacob for a "difference" that had nothing to do with their flesh.

So, if the difference had nothing to do with their flesh... then what was the difference that produced the rejection of Esau and the acceptance of Jacob?

Calvinism says, "Nothing".

Is that the truth?

Does fixation upon flesh declaring "that is all - only flesh"... stand the test of scripture?

Is God arbitrary in acceptance and rejection of two persons who are exactly the same in all respects?

Or, is there an unseen difference that is not of the flesh but rather of the spirit in pre-existence in Christ or not in Christ? Calvinism never considers this... due to temporal mindedness in man-centered singular focus on flesh.

With singular focus on flesh, Calvinism declares, "All mankind fell in Adam and God's decision to accept Jacob while rejecting Esau had no basis in the flesh of Jacob vs Esau and no basis on the acts or performance or character or merit of Jacob vs. Esau according to the flesh. Therefore, the election of Jacob was completely unconditional having no basis other than an arbitrary decision on God's part void of grounds."

Is that what scripture declares?? No.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The scripture declares that Jacob was elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The scripture declares that Jacob was literally in Christ in seed form in spirit before the foundation of the world (and Esau by extension was not).

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The scripture declares that the name of Jacob was written in the Lamb's Book of Life slain from the foundation of the world.

How was the name of Jacob "written in the Lamb's Book of Life". Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Lamb. Jesus is the Life.

In a literal form, as a seed of promise not yet born, the spirit of Jacob was literally "in Christ" (who is the Lamb's Book of Life)... from and before the foundation of the world.

Jacob was in Christ before the foundation of the world... Esau was not in Christ before the foundation of the world... at spirit level.

Jacob was a child of God in spirit not yet born as the seed of promise.

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.

Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Jesus is declaring that the reprobate of John 8 in their spirit man are children of the devil, from beneath (hell) in spirit (John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above, and there is a fundamental difference between them and the children of God in spirit who are the elect.

Esau was just as these.

Jesus can see the heart and spirit level of mankind that we cannot see or differentiate looking at the exterior flesh.

It is the same as wheat and tare. Both look exactly alike on the outside... but the wheat and the tares come forth from different seed and produce different fruit.

Can this be comprehended within the limit of the scope of vision of Calvinism? No.

Because something cannot be seen or comprehended from within a limited scope of vision... does that mean it is not in scripture and does not exist? No.

It means there is something beyond the scope of Calvinism that can be seen and comprehended in and through the Word of God... that a singular focus on the shared flesh of all mankind in Adam... will never see.

One most go back to the First Day... and consider that the scripture declares that the purpose of this creation is the destruction of the devil and his evil works... the destruction of darkness... and see the principalities and powers and the spiritual dimension and reality beyond the flesh of man... to comprehend the mystery and see it revealed in the Word of God.

There is a reason and a grounds for election and predestination.

The reason and grounds does not find it's pivotal causation in the flesh of Adam and all mankind.

The reason and grounds is in a state of spirit before the foundation of the world that was either in Christ or not in Christ... correlating to the unseen spiritual reality that some were in Christ before the foundation of the world... some were in the darkness that pre-existed the First Day.

Some were children of God in spirit in foreknowledge. Some were already condemned in spirit in darkness of the fall of sin into ruin.

That is the only conclusion.

 

[Laura Lee]

Jesus, speaking to the reprobate of their reprobation... declares that they are of their father the devil who abode not in the truth.

Why is Jesus speaking to the reprobate of the fall of the devil and his angels declaring the devil to be their father saying they are from beneath of the devil's domain of the darkness of hell??

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above

John 8:Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Why does Jesus say, "from the beginning" speaking of the fall of the devil and his angels to reprobate He is declaring to be the children of the devil in spirit who are from hell in spirit... the darkness that preceded the Genesis creation "in the beginning"??

Mankind is ancillary... a temporary manifestation of the elect and reprobate in flesh and blood bodies of man... predestined to be destroyed.

Why did God create the race of man?

The Bible answer would be for the same reason God created the Genesis creation in which God created the human race:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The flesh and blood bodies of mankind are temporary vessels... and God speaks of this when He tells us of election and reprobation... Esau and Jacob.

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God has created bodies for the elect both of the flesh of Abraham and of the Gentile flesh.

God has created bodies for the reprobate both of the flesh of Abraham and of the Gentile flesh.

Flesh doesn't matter.

Election and reprobation is proven to be something "beyond" the flesh: the spirit tier level.

And God created all these flesh and blood bodies as vessels... some for the reprobate.. some for the elect.

And declares that He is God and can do what He wills.. and what is man to reply against Him??

And says, "What if I created these vessels for a larger purpose... so I could destroy the vessels of the reprobate??"

Right along with God's larger plan to destroy the devil and his evil works... declaring that the reprobate of John 8 are in their own spirits... of the devil... who sinned from the beginning and did not abide in the truth in the First Estate of Heaven that preceded the darkness... and the creation of earth.

Mankind is ancillary.

The fixation on flesh is blinding to the larger plan and purpose of God revealed in scripture... in which He creates a flesh and blood body vessel as a temporary vessel... for pre-existent spirits... some of whom were holy in pre-existence... and some of them were in the darkness of the fall of the devil and his angels.

Any logical person... who simply views scripture as a logic puzzle... will ask the question immediately...

Are the reprobate the devil and his angels... wearing "earthsuits"??

Let's consider the end of the reprobate.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Why did Jesus Christ in John 8 declare to the reprobate that their reprobation was the result of the fall of the devil and his angels as children of the devil?

Why in the end does Jesus Christ not speak to them of fire prepared for human beings... but for the devil and his angels?

Well, logic declares... that the reprobate are in fact the devil and his angels in their spirits... placed in flesh and blood vessel earth suits... and there is a reason they are rejected by God... with Esau... before they are born or have done anything good or bad.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jesus Christ is declaring that the son of perdition, Judas, who John 8 declares came from hell/the darkness in spirit... and is declared a child of the devil in spirit... is himself... literally in spirit... a devil.

And Judas is in the crowd of those on the left of Jesus on Judgement Day, who Jesus commands to go into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Jesus Christ is not declaring that Judas is a "separate person" from the devil and his angels... but rather is himself, Judas, a devil for whom the lake of fire was prepared being of the company of the devil and his angels.

Meaning, the reprobate are devils made human beings.

Will Calvinism ever see that? No.

But is it scriptural? Yes.