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God could have chosen to give us perfect free will, but he did not.
That's right. So do we understand the issue now?So claim the Calvinists.
On the contrary, what this shows us is that you don't understand the point. If God created billions of humans and the eternal destiny of each of them was undetermined from birth to death, that would indicate a universe out of his control (at least as concerns this issue of salvation), wouldn't it? And if that's so, it would be reasonable to say that it means his sovereignty was limited, if only by his own decision to limit it. But can God limit his omnipotence that way without denying his own character?The typical argument is that if man has free will that this somehow limits God's sovereignty. That's a bogus argument.
That's right. So do we understand the issue now?
On the contrary, what this shows us is that you don't understand the point. If God created billions of humans and the eternal destiny of each of them was undetermined from birth to death, that would indicate a universe out of his control (at least as concerns this issue of salvation), wouldn't it?
No. If that was God's design then it would be completely within his control.
He demonstrates as much here:
Eze 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
and here"
Matt 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
It would be within his control to do it this way or not. If his decision were to surrender his sovereignty, you can't say that he still has it.No. If that was God's design then it would be completely within his control.
It would be within his control to do it this way or not. If his decision were to surrender his sovereignty, you can't say that he still has it.
So according to Calvinists, God is too weak to give man free will.
Unfortunately for your dogma, the bible teaches us that our eternal destiny depends on the choices we make.
Romans 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.6
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Luke 12:47
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
I have suspected all along that the issue has not been framed properly. When we speak of free will (or the lack of same) it normally doesn't mean that we're deciding between the ability to make choices in life or, OTOH, being a mere robot operated in all things by God.It is a reality, as you have just demonstrated.
Or did God force you to post the above comment?
I explained why it does. You are free to give a contrary argument if you think there's something unconvincing about what I wrote.Granting us free will does not reduce God's sovereignty.
So according to Calvinists, God is too weak to give man free will.
Unfortunately for your dogma, the bible teaches us that our eternal destiny depends on the choices we make.
Romans 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.6
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Luke 12:47
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Theologically speaking, this issue matters only in the case salvation or, to be more specific, whether the individual can choose Christ--or not.
Apparently reading comprehension is a difficult concept for you. I said no such thing. In fact, I said the exact opposite.
All by your little lonesome, huh? Salvation is of the Lord, not of man's choice.
That's the issue for all of us. You take one side or the other, but you have to be on one of them.That's the problem for a Calvinist.
That's your conclusion, not mine.You believe that God decides whether or not a person follows Jesus, and therefore, by default, it is God's fault if someone goes to Hell.
We need God's grace to be saved. We can't do it alone.
That doesn't mean we don't have to respond to and cooperate with God's grace.
According to you, it is God's fault that any man goes to Hell because God alone is responsible for their salvation.
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