Calvinism, explained.

EmSw · Feb 14, 2016

thatbrian said:
Oh, it's absolutely Calvinistic. As we've stated over and over again, we are not robots.

Absolutely, we are not robots. Pre-programming only exist for robots, who can only operate according to the wishes of the programmer. We all know man doesn't operate only according to the wishes of a Programmer. Or do we?

thatbrian said:
"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" (Romans 10:14)

I love this verse; notice those who have not believed are to call on Jesus? Also notice, the unbeliever took action in calling on Jesus. In other words, the unbeliever did something to be saved. Amazing what one will learn if he only lets the Word speak to him.

I'm sure some will like to insert 'regenerated' in place of 'believed'. But, 'regeneration' and 'believe' are not the same thing. In fact, if we substituted 'regeneration' in place of every 'believe' in this passage, we would get the following -

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not 'been regenerated'? And how are they to 'be regenerated' in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"

If one wants to make that substitution, then regeneration only comes by hearing Jesus, and that is preceded by someone preaching to them. Do you believe regeneration comes by preaching?

Besides, believing comes by the choice of man (remember, man is not a robot); can one say that of regeneration?

Now we come to a man calling on Jesus. What is man to call for? Any guesses? Well, we don't have to guess; Paul tells in verse 13 -

For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So we now see salvation is preceded by man calling on Him. Can a man be saved without calling on Him? Since man is not a pre-programmed robot, is calling on Him not a choice man makes of himself? Does not a man DO this to be saved?

thatbrian said:
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “. . . go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:18-20)

I especially love that last part, don't you? We are to teach all nations to OBEY EVERYTHING Jesus commanded. When you go to make disciples, do you teach them to OBEY EVERYTHING Jesus commanded? So, we are not only to bring the word to them, but also teach them to OBEY EVERYTHING Jesus commanded. Were you taught to OBEY EVERYTHING Jesus commanded?

thatbrian said:
Also, God's sovereignty and mans responsibility are not mutual exclusive. They both exist simultaneously. The story of Joseph is a good example of this. Joseph's brother were completely responsible for the evil things they did to him, yet God worked in and through that evil to feed many people who would have otherwise died, and He protected the messianic line, as well.

thatbrian said:
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today." (Gen 50:20)

Verse 21 - Now therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” And he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

tulipbee · Feb 14, 2016

Calvinists believe that people make real choices; they are not robots.
But Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate will is not free but bound

EmSw · Feb 14, 2016

tulipbee said:
Calvinists believe that people make real choices; they are not robots.
But Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate will is not free but bound

How can they call upon the Lord for salvation if their will is not free?

tulipbee · Feb 14, 2016

EmSw said:
How can they call upon the Lord for salvation if their will is not free?

I know I'm a theology major when: I'm watching the walking dead & you
bring up free will & I think of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Free will is but
self determination and the "self" of our determination is bound to sin.
True love is Romans 5:8. When you say "your free will", we know you're
thinking synergism. When we say Calvinism/God is sovereign, we mean
Monergism. I went through my Bible and circled all the times the
phrase "free will" shows up. Now my Bible has no circles in it.

EmSw · Feb 14, 2016

tulipbee said:
I know I'm a theology major when: I'm watching the walking dead & you
bring up free will & I think of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Free will is but
self determination and the "self" of our determination is bound to sin.
True love is Romans 5:8. When you say "your free will", we know you're
thinking synergism. When we say Calvinism/God is sovereign, we mean
Monergism. I went through my Bible and circled all the times the
phrase "free will" shows up. Now my Bible has no circles in it.

Wow, how many times did you circle 'self-determination'?

Look what I found (all verses from CJB) -

Isaiah 1:19
If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good of the land;

Exodus 35
5 ‘Take up a collection for Adonai from among yourselves — anyone whose heart makes him willing is to bring the offering for Adonai: gold, silver and bronze;
6 blue, purple and scarlet yarn; fine linen, goat’s hair,

Exodus 35:21
and they came, everyone whose heart stirred him and everyone whose spirit made him willing, and brought Adonai’s offering for the work on the tent of meeting, for the service in it and for the holy garments.

Exodus 35:22
Both men and women came, as many as had willing hearts; they brought nose-rings, earrings, signet-rings, belts, all kinds of gold jewelry — everyone bringing an offering of gold to Adonai.

Ezekiel 3:7
But the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, because they aren’t willing to listen to me; since all the house of Israel are obstinate and hardhearted.

Psalm 110:3
On the day your forces mobilize, your people willingly offer themselves in holy splendors from the womb of the dawn; the dew of your youth is yours.

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if I do it unwillingly, I still do it, simply because I’ve been entrusted with a job.

Let me ask you this - If God's word is sovereign, do you have the free-will to either
obey or ignore it? Who makes that choice for you? If you aren't willing to obey, then
I will have to believe Ezekiel 3:7.

tulipbee · Feb 16, 2016

EmSw said:
Wow, how many times did you circle 'self-determination'?

Look what I found (all verses from CJB) -

Isaiah 1:19
If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good of the land;

Exodus 35
5 ‘Take up a collection for Adonai from among yourselves — anyone whose heart makes him willing is to bring the offering for Adonai: gold, silver and bronze;
6 blue, purple and scarlet yarn; fine linen, goat’s hair,

Exodus 35:21
and they came, everyone whose heart stirred him and everyone whose spirit made him willing, and brought Adonai’s offering for the work on the tent of meeting, for the service in it and for the holy garments.

Exodus 35:22
Both men and women came, as many as had willing hearts; they brought nose-rings, earrings, signet-rings, belts, all kinds of gold jewelry — everyone bringing an offering of gold to Adonai.

Ezekiel 3:7
But the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, because they aren’t willing to listen to me; since all the house of Israel are obstinate and hardhearted.

Psalm 110:3
On the day your forces mobilize, your people willingly offer themselves in holy splendors from the womb of the dawn; the dew of your youth is yours.

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if I do it unwillingly, I still do it, simply because I’ve been entrusted with a job.

Let me ask you this - If God's word is sovereign, do you have the free-will to either
obey or ignore it? Who makes that choice for you? If you aren't willing to obey, then
I will have to believe Ezekiel 3:7.

That's why...

"I will give you a new heart and put a
new spirit within you; and I will remove
the heart of stone from your flesh and
give you a heart of flesh." ( Ezekiel
36:26 NASB )

NOT "exhort you" or "recommend", but "give
you a new heart". The OT experience is that
man -on his own- CAN'T obey, can't be faithful,
can't believe !

EmSw · Feb 16, 2016

tulipbee said:
That's why...

"I will give you a new heart and put a
new spirit within you; and I will remove
the heart of stone from your flesh and
give you a heart of flesh." ( Ezekiel
36:26 NASB )

NOT "exhort you" or "recommend", but "give
you a new heart". The OT experience is that
man -on his own- CAN'T obey, can't be faithful,
can't believe !

You are only reading the last part of the story. Let me give you the first part from the Sovereign God.

Ezekiel 18
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Here is a command from the Sovereign Lord. Will you neglect and dismiss this sovereign command from the Sovereign God? If God's Sovereignty is everything to you, why would you not believe and obey this sovereign command?

Concerning 'can't obey, can't be faithful, can't believe', why is it mentioned in Ezekiel about a new heart? Did the children of Israel have a new heart before this? If not, how did any OT saint obey, be faithful, and believe with an old heart before Ezekiel's writings? If they did have a new before Ezekiel, why is God is telling them about a new heart in Ezekiel? Did they somehow lose their new heart they received before Ezekiel? Did their new heart not last?

If God's sovereign word cannot fail, why is it the Reformed, His elect, do not cast away their iniquities to make a new heart? Do you disagree with the Sovereignty of God in Ezekiel 18:31?

tulipbee · Feb 19, 2016

The Christ of Arminianism - loses many whom he has "saved" because they
do not continue in faith. Even if he does give them "eternal security," as
some say, that security is not based upon his will or work but the choice
which the sinner made when he accepted Christ.

The Christ of the Bible - preserves His chosen people so that they can not
lose their salvation but persevere in the faith to the very end. He
preserves them by the sovereign electing will of God, the power of His
death, and the mighty working of His Spirit. (John 5:24, John 10:26-29, Rom.
8:29-30, Rom. 8:35-39, I Peter 1:2-5, Jude 24-25)

jimmyjimmy · Feb 19, 2016

EmSw said:
How can they call upon the Lord for salvation if their will is not free?

Romans 10:14 answers your question. You are reading it in the wrong order. Paul is working back, obviously. It starts with preaching, and ends with believing.

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" (Romans 10:14)

The answers are all right there. Just read the text correctly.

sdowney717 · Feb 19, 2016

Romans 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

They hear the message of the gospel, but not all believe and the reason Paul again shows is in Romans 11, and in Isaiah which Paul references in v16.

"I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."
So those who do find God did not seek God or ask of God, salvation came to them without them seeking after God.
Why?, well read on.

Romans 11
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

tulipbee · Feb 22, 2016

tulipbee said:
The Christ of Arminianism - loses many whom he has "saved" because they
do not continue in faith. Even if he does give them "eternal security," as
some say, that security is not based upon his will or work but the choice
which the sinner made when he accepted Christ.

The Christ of the Bible - preserves His chosen people so that they can not
lose their salvation but persevere in the faith to the very end. He
preserves them by the sovereign electing will of God, the power of His
death, and the mighty working of His Spirit. (John 5:24, John 10:26-29, Rom.
8:29-30, Rom. 8:35-39, I Peter 1:2-5, Jude 24-25)

As you can see, although the Christ of Arminianism and the Christ of the
Bible may at first seem to be the same, they are very different. One is a
false Christ. The other is the true Christ. One is weak and helpless. He
bows before the sovereign "free will" of man. The other is the reigning Lord
Who wills what He pleases and sovereignly accomplishes all that He wills.

If you believe and serve the Christ of Arminianism, you must recognize the
fact that you do not serve the Christ of the Bible. You have been deceived!
Study the Scriptures and learn of the True Christ. Pray for grace to repent
and trust Christ as your sovereign Savior.

Aldebaran · Feb 22, 2016

tulipbee said:
As you can see, although the Christ of Arminianism and the Christ of the
Bible may at first seem to be the same, they are very different. One is a
false Christ. The other is the true Christ. One is weak and helpless. He
bows before the sovereign "free will" of man. The other is the reigning Lord
Who wills what He pleases and sovereignly accomplishes all that He wills.

I just love when Calvanists use this type of language! Just how on earth does Jesus dying on the cross and bearing the sin of everyone who has ever lived make Him weak and helpless? I think the restraint He shows by being able to do this and then NOT force His will on us to accept his gift of salvation is indicative of a God who is quite powerful indeed.

tulipbee · Feb 22, 2016

Aldebaran said:
I just love when Calvanists use this type of language! Just how on earth does Jesus dying on the cross and bearing the sin of everyone who has ever lived make Him weak and helpless? I think the restraint He shows by being able to do this and then NOT force His will on us to accept his gift of salvation is indicative of a God who is quite powerful indeed.

He doesn't need to force a man that won't choose him anyway.

jimmyjimmy · Feb 22, 2016

Aldebaran said:
I just love when Calvanists use this type of language! Just how on earth does Jesus dying on the cross and bearing the sin of everyone who has ever lived make Him weak and helpless? I think the restraint He shows by being able to do this and then NOT force His will on us to accept his gift of salvation is indicative of a God who is quite powerful indeed.

Your ignorance of the doctrines of Calvinism is breathtaking. You might want to read a book or find an online resource to actually try to understand what it is that you are disagreeing with.

Aldebaran · Feb 23, 2016

tulipbee said:
He doesn't need to force a man that won't choose him anyway.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Aldebaran · Feb 23, 2016

thatbrian said:
Your ignorance of the doctrines of Calvinism is breathtaking. You might want to read a book or find an online resources to actually try to understand what it is that you are disagreeing with.

Well, take a moment to catch your breath. I'm simply going by what I've been reading from those who actually subscribe to Calvanist teachings.

jimmyjimmy · Feb 23, 2016

Aldebaran said:
Well, take a moment to catch your breath. I'm simply going by what I've been reading from those who actually subscribe to Calvanist teachings.

Then you have misunderstood in no uncertain terms, which is why I suggest reading books, especially ones penned by dead guys, in order to gain some understanding about what you are disagreeing with.

Aldebaran · Feb 23, 2016

thatbrian said:
Then you have misunderstood in no uncertain terms, which is why I suggest reading books, especially ones penned by dead guys, in order to gain some understanding about what you are disagreeing with.

I am disagreeing with statements that are being made by living people (I'm assuming they are alive) on this thread, and also people I have met in person, who were some of the nastiest people I've ever met who referred to themselves as Christians.

I can't have a discussion with dead people.

jimmyjimmy · Feb 23, 2016

Aldebaran said:
I am disagreeing with statements that are being made by living people (I'm assuming they are alive) on this thread, and also people I have met in person, who were some of the nastiest people I've ever met who referred to themselves as Christians.

I can't have a discussion with dead people.

Don't trouble yourself with church history. You know it all already.

Aldebaran · Feb 23, 2016

thatbrian said:
Don't trouble yourself with church history. You know it all already.

You're starting to remind me of those people I was referring to in my last post.

Calvinism, explained.

White Horse Rider

Worker of the Hive

White Horse Rider

Worker of the Hive

White Horse Rider

Worker of the Hive

White Horse Rider

Worker of the Hive

Pardoned Rebel

Newbie

Worker of the Hive

NCC-1701-A

Worker of the Hive

Pardoned Rebel

NCC-1701-A

NCC-1701-A

Pardoned Rebel

NCC-1701-A

Pardoned Rebel

NCC-1701-A

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