-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Calling things that are not as though they are.
- Thread starter habeas
- Start date
- Status
charityagape
Blue Chicken Gives You Horns
- May 6, 2005
- 7,146
- 516
- 51
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Thank you..........
One other thing about his message being to the sisters versus the disciples........IMO
The disciples didn't seem very converned about Lazarus UNTIL Jesus said he was dead. The sisters sent what appears to be urgent word and to come quickly..........but when Jesus mentions several days later about going, the disciples are all pretty upset about going....the don't seem to be that concerned about Lazarus' health UNTIL Jesus said he was dead then immediatly they wanted to go. I figure if Jesus loved Lazarus they probably did too, so if Jesus had even mentioned Lazarus when the message first came, why would they be so resistant to going..........
Just my take on the passage.
One other thing about his message being to the sisters versus the disciples........IMO
The disciples didn't seem very converned about Lazarus UNTIL Jesus said he was dead. The sisters sent what appears to be urgent word and to come quickly..........but when Jesus mentions several days later about going, the disciples are all pretty upset about going....the don't seem to be that concerned about Lazarus' health UNTIL Jesus said he was dead then immediatly they wanted to go. I figure if Jesus loved Lazarus they probably did too, so if Jesus had even mentioned Lazarus when the message first came, why would they be so resistant to going..........
Just my take on the passage.
Upvote
0
KingZzub
Blessed to Be A Blessing
- Dec 23, 2005
- 14,754
- 893
- 49
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- UK-Conservative
Christina M said:Yes!
Because facts are subject to change... the truth is not!
Amen, because facts are rooted in the physical world, but the truth is spirit and the Spirit created the physical with words, and us - as spirit beings - can still create the physical with words.
Cheers,
|ZZ|
Upvote
0
probinson
Legend
- Aug 16, 2005
- 24,669
- 4,637
- 48
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Perhaps the Amplified Bible can, uh, amplify the point we're trying to make about Jesus and Lazarus:
Go back to Strong's. If you take a look at verse 33 where it says He "groaned" in His spirit, you will see that the greek word for groan is "embrimaomai", which comes from the root "brimaomai" which means "to snort with anger". Anger! Again!
The point I'm trying to make is that this is not an illogical conclusion or a patently WoF teaching. The context very much supports the notion that Jesus was not only troubled, but indeed very upset that no one believed Him when He said this sickness will not end in death. As a matter of fact, when you consider the way that John writes it and the words he uses to describe Jesus' reaction, it becomes extremely unlikely that Jesus was simply empathizing with Mary and Martha but rather was quite upset and disgusted by the whole thing.
John 11:33-38 (AMP)
33When Jesus saw her sobbing, and the Jews who came with her [also] sobbing, He was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. [He chafed in spirit and sighed and was disturbed.] 34And He said, Where have you laid him? They said to Him, Lord, come and see.
35Jesus wept.
36The Jews said, See how [tenderly] He loved him!
37But some of them said, Could not He Who opened a blind man's eyes have prevented this man from dying?
38Now Jesus, again sighing repeatedly and deeply disquieted, approached the tomb. It was a cave (a hole in the rock), and a boulder lay against [the entrance to close] it.
The amplified Bible says that Jesus "chafed" in spirit, sighed and was disturbed! These are not the traits of a man who is empathizing.33When Jesus saw her sobbing, and the Jews who came with her [also] sobbing, He was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. [He chafed in spirit and sighed and was disturbed.] 34And He said, Where have you laid him? They said to Him, Lord, come and see.
35Jesus wept.
36The Jews said, See how [tenderly] He loved him!
37But some of them said, Could not He Who opened a blind man's eyes have prevented this man from dying?
38Now Jesus, again sighing repeatedly and deeply disquieted, approached the tomb. It was a cave (a hole in the rock), and a boulder lay against [the entrance to close] it.
John 11:38 (NLT)
33When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, he was moved with indignation and was deeply troubled. 34"Where have you put him?" he asked them.
They told him, "Lord, come and see." 35Then Jesus wept. 36The people who were standing nearby said, "See how much he loved him." 37But some said, "This man healed a blind man. Why couldn't he keep Lazarus from dying?"
38And again Jesus was deeply troubled. Then they came to the grave. It was a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance.
The New Living Translation says Jesus was moved with "indignation". Indignation is defined as a feeling of righteous anger. Why would Jesus be angry?33When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, he was moved with indignation and was deeply troubled. 34"Where have you put him?" he asked them.
They told him, "Lord, come and see." 35Then Jesus wept. 36The people who were standing nearby said, "See how much he loved him." 37But some said, "This man healed a blind man. Why couldn't he keep Lazarus from dying?"
38And again Jesus was deeply troubled. Then they came to the grave. It was a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance.
John 11:33-39 (TMSG)
33-34 When Jesus saw her sobbing and the Jews with her sobbing, a deep anger welled up within him. He said, "Where did you put him?" 34-35 "Master, come and see," they said. Now Jesus wept.
36 The Jews said, "Look how deeply he loved him."
37 Others among them said, "Well, if he loved him so much, why didn't he do something to keep him from dying? After all, he opened the eyes of a blind man."
38-39 Then Jesus, the anger again welling up within him, arrived at the tomb. It was a simple cave in the hillside with a slab of stone laid against it. Jesus said, "Remove the stone."
Here again, the Message Bible says that a deep anger was welling up within Jesus.33-34 When Jesus saw her sobbing and the Jews with her sobbing, a deep anger welled up within him. He said, "Where did you put him?" 34-35 "Master, come and see," they said. Now Jesus wept.
36 The Jews said, "Look how deeply he loved him."
37 Others among them said, "Well, if he loved him so much, why didn't he do something to keep him from dying? After all, he opened the eyes of a blind man."
38-39 Then Jesus, the anger again welling up within him, arrived at the tomb. It was a simple cave in the hillside with a slab of stone laid against it. Jesus said, "Remove the stone."
Go back to Strong's. If you take a look at verse 33 where it says He "groaned" in His spirit, you will see that the greek word for groan is "embrimaomai", which comes from the root "brimaomai" which means "to snort with anger". Anger! Again!
The point I'm trying to make is that this is not an illogical conclusion or a patently WoF teaching. The context very much supports the notion that Jesus was not only troubled, but indeed very upset that no one believed Him when He said this sickness will not end in death. As a matter of fact, when you consider the way that John writes it and the words he uses to describe Jesus' reaction, it becomes extremely unlikely that Jesus was simply empathizing with Mary and Martha but rather was quite upset and disgusted by the whole thing.
Upvote
0
- Jun 6, 2002
- 20,785
- 4,501
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
From my book "The Mechanics and Practice of Speaking in Tongues"
We have at least two instances where Jesus spoke directly out of His spirit in groans that could not be expressed with articulate words. These were examples of spiritual tongues and what can be accomplished by their use.
John 11:33-38 ASV
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping who came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
34 and said, Where have ye laid him? They say unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 The Jews therefore said, Behold how he loved him!
37 But some of them said, Could not this man, who opened the eyes of him that was blind, have caused that this man also should not die?
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone lay against it.
By our definition of tongues (that is: speaking in tongues is the act of speaking forth from the utterance of your own spirit) this groaning is a form of tongues. He groaned in the spirit and groaned in himself. The key to this passage is in what Jesus said next. Jesus specifically stated that these groanings were prayers. He pointed this out because those present did not recognize these groanings to be prayers:
John 11:41-42 ASV
41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou heardest me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me.
This groaning in the spirit was an intercessory praying in tongues, the Father heard this groaning and responded with the resurrection of Lazarus. Capture that thought. The resurrection of Lazarus was accomplished by the speaking forth of an intercessory prayer in spiritual tongues. Jesus pointed out that the only reason he spoke any words in known languages was for the benefit of those who did not understand the meaning of the groanings and what was going on. His intent was to let them know what was happening with the groaning: It was prayer, the Father heard it, and the prayer was answered.
John 11:43-44
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
You see, Jesus did not raise up Lazarus when He said the words Lazarus come forth. Lazarus had already been raised up by the intercessory tongues of Jesus. Lazarus was just bumping around blindfolded in the tomb. Jesus merely told him to come out of the tomb.
Another significant point is that Jesus did this with purpose and on purpose. The literal version states he troubled himself:
John 11:33
33 Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, did groan in the spirit, and troubled himself
Another version renders this he stirred himself up (Analytical Literal Translation). This shows that men can by force of will stimulate those spiritual centers within themselves so as to generate utterance (spiritese). By empathizing with the needs of the suffering, the spirit of Christ within us will be grieved into the creation and issuance of tongues. We have the same intercessory spirit as Christ. It is no longer our spirit that lives, it is the spirit of Christ that lives, loves, and intercedes within us.
We have at least two instances where Jesus spoke directly out of His spirit in groans that could not be expressed with articulate words. These were examples of spiritual tongues and what can be accomplished by their use.
John 11:33-38 ASV
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping who came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
34 and said, Where have ye laid him? They say unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 The Jews therefore said, Behold how he loved him!
37 But some of them said, Could not this man, who opened the eyes of him that was blind, have caused that this man also should not die?
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone lay against it.
By our definition of tongues (that is: speaking in tongues is the act of speaking forth from the utterance of your own spirit) this groaning is a form of tongues. He groaned in the spirit and groaned in himself. The key to this passage is in what Jesus said next. Jesus specifically stated that these groanings were prayers. He pointed this out because those present did not recognize these groanings to be prayers:
John 11:41-42 ASV
41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou heardest me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me.
This groaning in the spirit was an intercessory praying in tongues, the Father heard this groaning and responded with the resurrection of Lazarus. Capture that thought. The resurrection of Lazarus was accomplished by the speaking forth of an intercessory prayer in spiritual tongues. Jesus pointed out that the only reason he spoke any words in known languages was for the benefit of those who did not understand the meaning of the groanings and what was going on. His intent was to let them know what was happening with the groaning: It was prayer, the Father heard it, and the prayer was answered.
John 11:43-44
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
You see, Jesus did not raise up Lazarus when He said the words Lazarus come forth. Lazarus had already been raised up by the intercessory tongues of Jesus. Lazarus was just bumping around blindfolded in the tomb. Jesus merely told him to come out of the tomb.
Another significant point is that Jesus did this with purpose and on purpose. The literal version states he troubled himself:
John 11:33
33 Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, did groan in the spirit, and troubled himself
Another version renders this he stirred himself up (Analytical Literal Translation). This shows that men can by force of will stimulate those spiritual centers within themselves so as to generate utterance (spiritese). By empathizing with the needs of the suffering, the spirit of Christ within us will be grieved into the creation and issuance of tongues. We have the same intercessory spirit as Christ. It is no longer our spirit that lives, it is the spirit of Christ that lives, loves, and intercedes within us.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
