Calling things that are not as though they are.

[BarbB]

Nah, your Jewish tradition starts the narrative to late. Look at the whole story and you will see the anguish in the tears of our Lord. He is utterly surrounded by Jewish tradition at this point, and the unbelief of it is what causes Him to weep.

Racist apologetics wants to cloud the issue, but it is clear why Jesus wept.

Huh - where's the Jewish tradition? I have no Jewish tradition - I was raised a Presbyterian.

I see what you mean, TOL, but I just have to work with what I have - which is the verses as I printed.

 

[TreeOfLife]

gett ing in kind of late in this thread...sorry.

Did Jesus himself call things that were as though they were not?

Luke 8:52 talking about the little girl he said she was not dead, but sleeping (paraphrasing). Was she in fact dead, or was she sleeping? Just curious.

Do you want to comfort the parents by giving them back their beloved daughter, or prove a doctrine?

 

[TreeOfLife]

Huh - where's the Jewish tradition? I have no Jewish tradition - I was raised a Presbyterian.

I see what you mean, TOL, but I just have to work with what I have - which is the verses as I printed.

And I understand. No worries Sis.

 

[Tamara224]

Really? You do realize that scripture says the exact opposite of that right?

No, I'm not aware that it does, actually, becaue it doesn't.

I'm aware that it says to lean not on your own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)

I'm aware that is says to study to show myself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

I'm aware that it says I'm not supposed to waste my talents. (Matthew 25).

I'm aware that it says the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. (1 Corinthians 1:20 & 3:19). But praise God, we're not of this world! (1 Corinthians 2:12).

I'm aware that it says the natural (wo)man cannot discern spiritual things, but a spiritual (wo)man appraises all things. (1 Corinthians 2:14-15).

I'm aware that it says the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. (John 16:13).

Perhaps you could point out the error you believe I have made?

 

[TreeOfLife]

No, I'm not aware that it does, actually, becaue it doesn't.

I'm aware that it says to lean not on your own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)

I'm aware that is says to study to show myself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

I'm aware that it says I'm not supposed to waste my talents. (Matthew 25).

I'm aware that it says the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. (1 Corinthians 1:20 & 3:19). But praise God, we're not of this world! (1 Corinthians 2:12).

I'm aware that it says the natural (wo)man cannot discern spiritual things, but a spiritual (wo)man appraises all things. (1 Corinthians 2:14-15).

I'm aware that it says the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. (John 16:13).

Perhaps you could point out the error you believe I have made?

Has anyone ever spoken to you about the "renewing of the mind"?

 

[Tatu]

Has anyone ever spoken to you about the "renewing of the mind"?

Bam!

 

[OnlyByHisGrace]

Do you want to comfort the parents by giving them back their beloved daughter, or prove a doctrine?

no, I'm really curious, everyone said she was dead. (except Jesus) Was she? Did Jesus, being fully man while on Earth, call things other than what they were?

As far as the parents, of course you want to give them their little girl back and as far as proving doctrine, Jesus' life was doctrine. That's why I'm wondering which way it was, was she sleeping as Jesus said, or did he call it differently...

I've never really thought about this subject until now. I've never been around someone who had asthma that said they did not have it. I've heard people say they were getting better or that they were in the process of being healed, but never said they were already healed when they weren't. So I pose my question, is that what Jesus did?

 

[TreeOfLife]

no, I'm really curious, everyone said she was dead. (except Jesus) Was she? Did Jesus, being fully man while on Earth, call things other than what they were?

As far as the parents, of course you want to give them their little girl back and as far as proving doctrine, Jesus' life was doctrine. That's why I'm wondering which way it was, was she sleeping as Jesus said, or did he call it differently...

I've never really thought about this subject until now. I've never been around someone who had asthma that said they did not have it. I've heard people say they were getting better or that they were in the process of being healed, but never said they were already healed when they weren't. So I pose my question, is that what Jesus did?

Now you must define "dead" if you truely want an answer.

 

[Tamara224]

Has anyone ever spoken to you about the "renewing of the mind"?

Tree, if you're going to accuse me of something... just do it.

You claimed that Scripture said the "exact opposite" of what I had said. Now that I asked you to show me where it was, instead of answering you are apparently attempting to lead me down a rabbit trail so that you can call me names without seeming to do so. You have failed to just come out and give me the scripture to back up your claim...hmm. Methinks thou dodst dodge too much.

If I have misunderstood your intentions, please let me know... but if you can't just back up your claim, then give it a rest.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Tree, if you're going to accuse me of something... just do it.

You claimed that Scripture said the "exact opposite" of what I had said. Now that I asked you to show me where it was, instead of answering you are apparently attempting to lead me down a rabbit trail so that you can call me names without seeming to do so. You have failed to just come out and give me the scripture to back up your claim...hmm. Methinks thou dodst dodge too much.

If I have misunderstood your intentions, please let me know... but if you can't just back up your claim, then give it a rest.

No, You provide scripture to back up your legalistic claim, and I will break it down so all loving children of God can see the truth.


How's that?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Has anyone ever spoken to you about the "renewing of the mind"?

In Proverbs 21:2, "People may think they are doing what is right, but the Lord examines the heart." (NLT). Our flesh search for pleasure, pride, passions and selfish motives therefore God is looking for Christians who will worship and obey Him from their hearts, minds and bodies. Christian Legalism cannot change a heart, only the Holy Spirit can. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified (spiritual). 2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. Romans 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

 

[Tamara224]

No, You provide scripture to back up your legalistic claim, and I will break it down so all loving children of God can see the truth.


How's that?

What legalistic claim? I don't believe I've made any legalistic claims at all. If you could please just tell me what it is you think I have said that is in error, then I could either give support for my position or clarify it or whatever. I have, honestly, no idea what it is you are taking issue with that I have said. Do me the courtesy of telling me where it is you think I'm wrong.

 

[TreeOfLife]

In Proverbs 21:2, "People may think they are doing what is right, but the Lord examines the heart." (NLT). Our flesh search for pleasure, pride, passions and selfish motives therefore God is looking for Christians who will worship and obey Him from their hearts, minds and bodies. Christian Legalism cannot change a heart, only the Holy Spirit can. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified (spiritual). 2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. Romans 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Any chance of getting you to separate your own words from those that are actually scripture?

I have been around awhile and I don't know if you have noticed or not, but I am very careful to separate my scriptural text from my own. That's not by accident. I am confident enough about what I have to say that I would never want it to be confused with my own scriptural support.

Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?!

 

[JimfromOhio]

Any chance of getting you to separate your own words from those that are actually scripture?

I have been around awhile and I don't know if you have noticed or not, but I am very careful to separate my scriptural text from my own. That's not by accident. I am confident enough about what I have to say that I would never want it to be confused with my own scriptural support.

Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?!

Yep.. I do understand how bluntful you are and quick by provoking someone with replies with words.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Yep.. I do understand how bluntful you are and quick by provoking someone with replies with words.

Oh God man! Can't you even be human for just one post?

Yah bonehead! I asked you about nothing but your formatting and yet you felt it necessary to attack me. Duh!

Get over yourself buttonhead, I'm your brother!!

 

[charityagape]

But where the Bible is so clear on other actions and speech, it does not say that here. It simply does not. Clearly Jesus said that to his disciples, but it's simply not in the scriptures in either place that Jesus said this to Martha.

Forgive me if I'm assuming something here, but it sounds as though this was used as a Word of Faith teaching and the link was made and accepted, but to me, there simply is no link.

What is clear to me is that Martha would have believed whatever Jesus said to her. She believed in the resurrection; she believed that Jesus could have healed Lazarus. She would have had no reason to disbelieve him if he had said that Lazarus would not stay dead!

It may have been used as a WOF teaching, but I never heard it before. I just read what you were talking about and went and reread it a couple of times myself. It does not CLEARLY say that Jesus was talking to his disciples. It says:

So the sisters sent word to Jesus, "Lord, the one you love is sick." 4When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." 5Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days.
7Then he said to his disciples, "Let us go back to Judea."

In the above passage it says the sisters sent word and Jesus' response to that was.....

Then only later does it say: Then (then being operative) that he addressed the disciples at all.

 

[BarbB]

Hi charity - Well, like with TOL, I see where you are coming from, but I still disagree that the object of Jesus' remark "This sickness...." was the sisters and not the disciples. It says that Jesus SAID, not Jesus WROTE BACK.

Also, where I'm coming from is this was the first teaching I ever heard by an Assembly of God pastor and it was at my mother's funeral - the two word sentence "Jesus wept" and the pastor was NOT speaking about the unbelief around Jesus; he was speaking of the emotional pain Jesus experienced in his human body with his human emotions. I appreciate your position, but it still isn't as logical either in clear meaning or in exegetical breakdown as Jesus wept in agreement with the sisters.

Can you answer me why Jesus was able to raise Lazarus if there was so much unbelief around him? The Bible does clearly say that he did not do many miracles in certain other towns. And yet he raised Lazarus you would have me believe in the midst of all this unbelief. A response to my sincere question might go a long way toward me rethinking my own understanding of these verses.

 

[charityagape]

I'm sorry I wasn't really clear, I got caught up in explaining something. I think there was a great deal of unbelief floating around and that that could be partly responsible for Jesus' tears.

But I also think he had empathy for the sisters, and felt their pain so to speak.

I don't think that he personally was sad about Lazarus' death, after all he KNEW he was about to come out of that grave before he ever went into it.

 

[Debtfree]

How does it differ from the New Age visualization stuff?

New Age looks to oneself instead of Jesus and the Word of God. New Age denies reality...

The Bible teaches us not to deny reality, but look to the Word of God as our reality.

One may be sick that's a fact, but the Word of God is the truth (by His stripe you WERE healed). Truth always trumps a fact.

Christians are not to deny a fact, but rather to look to the Word of God which is greater than the fact of sickness and disease etc.

Debtfree

 

[BarbB]

...
I don't think that he personally was sad about Lazarus' death, after all he KNEW he was about to come out of that grave before he ever went into it.

I totally agree with you that Jesus did not mourn Lazarus' death - because Jesus knew as soon as he heard about Lazarus' illness that he would use him as an example of both his power and his position as Son of God.

You're explaining quite clearly, actually!