Calling things that are not as though they are.

I think it is the way you are approaching this is why you aren't finding what you are looking for. God never told us to "alter reality", He is just telling us to speak in faith believing in what we ask God to do. I don't know if this verse will help, but here it is:
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

And here is God's definition of faith:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What is faith if not believing for things to happen that are supernatural or against all reality as we know it?

ichtus423 said:

I think it is the way you are approaching this is why you aren't finding what you are looking for. God never told us to "alter reality", He is just telling us to speak in faith believing in what we ask God to do.

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So, do we have any responsibility to stop to consider whether or not something is in God's will before we ask it?

I don't know if this verse will help, but here it is:
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

And here is God's definition of faith:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

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Both of these verses are referring to faith. We're not talking about faith, we're talking about the idea of "calling things that are not as though they were".

What is faith if not believing for things to happen that are supernatural or against all reality as we know it?

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The problem is that, while faith is good, faith in something that isn't Biblical is presumptuous. And presumptuous where God is concerned is sin.

MikeMcK said:

So, do we have any responsibility to stop to consider whether or not something is in God's will before we ask it?

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Yes, God's will should be our priority. But whether we know for sure whether it is God's will or not, He will grant whatever we ask based on what He knows is best at the time. That means we will not always get what we ask for simply because many of the things we ask or "speak as though they are", are desires of the flesh.

MikeMcK said:

Both of these verses are referring to faith. We're not talking about faith, we're talking about the idea of "calling things that are not as though they were".

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Calling things as though they were is the tangible form of faith itself. We need faith in believing what we are speaking of. The Bible says in Proverbs 18:21:
Death and life are in the power of the tongue.
The Bible itself speaks of the power we possess in what we say. And as Believers in Christ, we operate in authority through Jesus Christ when we speak of things as though they were.

MikeMcK said:

The problem is that, while faith is good, faith in something that isn't Biblical is presumptuous. And presumptuous where God is concerned is sin.

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Yes, this is very true. That is why I personally don't take the whole "speaking things as though they were" thing and run with it like I can command whatever I want. Many people do this and it can easily form into a sin. I humble myself before the authority of Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to discern what it is I should be speaking. And yes, I know I'm not perfect, we all fall short at times, but as ambassadors of Christ, we should demonstrate maturity in what we present ourselves to look like before the world. I know this is a little off topic, but if the world is saying we are quacks for walking around commanding healings and financial abundance, maybe we should look at the way we show ourselves, and ask ourselves if we are demonstrating a behavior that God will be pleased with. What I'm trying to say is, I strongly believe in "speaking of things as though they were," but we should all be allowing the power of God to back up our words, and not run around like lunatics while the world sees us as oblivious to "reality."
wow, sorry I went on a looong little bunny trail...lol. I just had to get some stuff off my chest.

ichtus423 said:

Yes, God's will should be our priority. But whether we know for sure whether it is God's will or not, He will grant whatever we ask based on what He knows is best at the time. That means we will not always get what we ask for simply because many of the things we ask or "speak as though they are", are desires of the flesh.



Calling things as though they were is the tangible form of faith itself. We need faith in believing what we are speaking of. The Bible says in Proverbs 18:21:
Death and life are in the power of the tongue.
The Bible itself speaks of the power we possess in what we say. And as Believers in Christ, we operate in authority through Jesus Christ when we speak of things as though they were.




Yes, this is very true. That is why I personally don't take the whole "speaking things as though they were" thing and run with it like I can command whatever I want. Many people do this and it can easily form into a sin. I humble myself before the authority of Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to discern what it is I should be speaking. And yes, I know I'm not perfect, we all fall short at times, but as ambassadors of Christ, we should demonstrate maturity in what we present ourselves to look like before the world. I know this is a little off topic, but if the world is saying we are quacks for walking around commanding healings and financial abundance, maybe we should look at the way we show ourselves, and ask ourselves if we are demonstrating a behavior that God will be pleased with. What I'm trying to say is, I strongly believe in "speaking of things as though they were," but we should all be allowing the power of God to back up our words, and not run around like lunatics while the world sees us as oblivious to "reality."
wow, sorry I went on a looong little bunny trail...lol. I just had to get some stuff off my chest.

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AAAAAAAAmen.

Bro your posts are amazing.

Welcome.

(By the way -- and this is going to sound really bad -- but don't ever expect MikeMcK to concede a point. He's never wrong.)

The real question is, "what makes us think we actually know what things "are" now"?

All things in the physical universe are nothing but electrical impulses transmitted into a reciever. (the mind). Based on that fact, it is impossible for the exsistance of the universe to be "proven" by empirical evidence.

Words of Faith and Life may indeed be more important than the general church believes. IMO.

Tatu said:

(By the way -- and this is going to sound really bad -- but don't ever expect MikeMcK to concede a point. He's never wrong.)

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And don't ever expect Tatu to admit that he wouldn't know the Bible if somebody smacked him in the head with it.

MikeMcK said:

And don't ever expect Tatu to admit that he wouldn't know the Bible if somebody smacked him in the head with it.

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Some read the Word and believe it.........
others read it and argue with it.

If I printed Genesis 1:1 on a Hallmark card, gave it to my friend who then used it as a coaster for his beer, and I blasted him with foul words for his apparent irreverence......who would be the idolator?

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abrahamic promises are for us too.

ichtus423 said:

Calling things as though they were is the tangible form of faith itself. We need faith in believing what we are speaking of. The Bible says in Proverbs 18:21:
Death and life are in the power of the tongue.
The Bible itself speaks of the power we possess in what we say. And as Believers in Christ, we operate in authority through Jesus Christ when we speak of things as though they were.

Click to expand...

God speaks of things that are not as though they were, God does this, not we.

Proverbs 18:21 is a Proverb. Not a Doctrinal study into a mysticle power of speaking.
It was written by a King who litterally had the authority in his kingdom to order someone to die.

It applies to us in the metaphorical sense that when we say things good or bad of people it affects those who hear it, and affects the speaker.

It is not saying we have the power in our words to command things into reality that are not.
Nor does it mean that we can speak "death" to something and that it will then die.

Atlantians said:

Don't forget that only God calls things that are not as though they are.

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Following your logic Abraham is God then, Abram called himself Abraham and his wife Sarah, before he ever had even a son!
Abram had the assurance to call himself Abraham meaning the father of multitude, because he trusted God enough, when God said to him, you are now Abraham - the father of a multitude and your wife to be Sarah, he believe God and was bold enough to go around all his surroundings and publish himself as Abraham and his wife Sarah...

Atlantians said:

It is not saying we have the power in our words to command things into reality that are not.
Nor does it mean that we can speak "death" to something and that it will then die.

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Actually, if you take what Jesus says and line it up with this proverb, we do have the power to command something to die. Jesus said in John 14:12 :
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."
Now if Jesus tells us this while he is commanding demons to flee, causing the blind to see, and bringing the dead back to life, then why are you saying that we cannot speak life or death into something, when we can do even greater things?? What exactly did you think Jesus was talking about when he told us this?

This verse simply doesn't mean what many people are trying to make it mean.

You can get a better sense of what the verse is saying if you look at it in multiple translations and consider the context of the phrase in question.

Lets look at it.

In the KJV we have the classic rendering...

"As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. "

Looking at my new favorite the ESV we see a slightly different rendering which can give us a little insight into what is being said..

"as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist."

The context of this passage is an exposition by Paul on the fact that the covenant God made with Abraham (the covenant of salvation) was a covenant of faith and that the heirs of that covenant are those who have faith, and believe that God will do what he promised.
The entire premise of the passage is that Abraham received the covenant because he believed God. Thus, it is not a covenant or promise which passes simply to Abraham's blood, but rather to all who believe God, as Abraham believed God.

The verse in question 4:17 is preceeded by the statement that Abraham is the father of all who have faith. 4:17 begins

as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations” This statement is being offered as proof of Paul's claim that Abraham is the father not only of the Jews but of all who believe. The scripture quote he offers says that Abraham is the father of MANY NATIONS, not just one nation (ie the Israelites) "the nations" in hebrew of course always referred to the gentiles. So Paul is making a point here that the gentiles are included in God's promise to Abraham.

Next we have the statement...

"in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist."

The first point, which Mike made earlier is that the "who gives life to the dead, and calls into existence the things that do not exist" is referring to God. Not to Abraham, nor any created being. We'll come back to this in a second. I want to further establish context for the phrase here by going on to the next verse.

verse 18
"In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” "

Ok.. Now, the whole point of this story is summed up in this verse. Abraham believed. He hoped against hope, that God's promise to him would be fulfilled.

So far as scripture tells us, this belief on Abraham's part never took the shape of Abraham walking around saying "I have a son" repeatedly.. or "I am the father of many nations".
In fact, in an interesting Irony.. the one time in the whole story that Abraham tried to bring about God's promise under his own initiative, it was an act of foolishness that created a family feud which exists into our day and has cost many wars and lives.

the statement "who calls things that aren't as though they were" is a refrence to the fact that God has the ability, the power to create things from nothing. Like the creation of the world. God said "let there be light, and there was light". This is what the phrase is referring to. God's creative power. This verse also says "who can give life to the dead." Now you may believe, as I do, that people can be raised from the dead. However, how many of you believe that YOU can give life to the dead?

If you think that you are supposed to call things that are not as though they were.. then you should also think that you can give life to the dead.

The point being that neither one of those things are ascribed to us in this verse. They are ascribed to God.
What we are to do is believe that God will do them on our behalf.

Going back to Abraham. He believed God, but did he see this promise fulfilled? The promise in question here was that Abraham would be the father of many nations, and his descendants would be numbered like the stars in heaven, or grains of sand on the beach.
Abraham in his life time never saw this. He saw a down payment of the promise. He saw one son.

Moreover.. Abraham probably (just like all the hebrews since him) believed that this promise meant literal genetic descendants. While Paul's entire point here in this passage is that God fulfilled the promise of many descendants in those who have faith.. ie they are not literal genetic descendants. So, what people thought God meant (and still think God meant) by this promise is entirely different than what God actually meant.

God did fulfill his promise to Abraham, just as Abraham believed he would. God always fulfills his promises and nothing can stop him. As is said in the NT "do not think to yourselves that you have abraham for your father, for I tell you God can raise up from these stones children of abraham..." Even if we all refused to believe, even if all genetic descendants of Abraham were killed off.. God could and would still fulfill the promise he made to abraham, because he is the God who can create things which did not exist before.

So yes, this verse is about having faith, against all odds. But it should also be a caution that God fulfills his promises in his own time and his own ways and our walking around trying to make it happen our way isn't going to change that.. it will most likely just cause us more trouble.

good explanation

Death and life are in the power of the tongue.

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This is absolutely true.

From tongue comes accusation; then comes condemnation, then comes death.

Remember, God sees the eternal consequences of what we say.

Atlantians said:

God speaks of things that are not as though they were, God does this, not we.

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Joshua and Caleb said that the Lord had given the promised land to them. Even before they were in the promised land. Even when the throng of people said THERE ARE GIANTS! and ran away. They said the land was theirs.

It all boils down to this. Are you going to believe God, or are you going to believe your circumstances? Are you going to look at the giants and run, or are you going to say what God says?

Of course I can't create anything with my words. That's not the point. The point is when God says something, I agree with it and not with my circumstances.

Amen Prob...

And the people who (correctly and accurately in the natural, carnal realm) said there were giants in the land were told they brought an EVIL report.

The people who call those things as though they ARE are the ones with the evil report.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

Eph. 3:

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Sounds to me like we actually have the power of God in us to perform what Jesus says we should do - and this verse says that when we do - God gets the glory!
I am encouraged!

Ichtus - I can't get the rep thing to work this evening, but I am sure I'm going to run across some more of your excellent posts again soon, and you are well due for some!