"calling of the first disciples" - problem

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bluemarkus

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dear reader and brother in the study of the word.

i am a newborn christian and converted in june 2004, now 23 years old. over the last 2 months i read my bible (christian growth study bible) a lot.

i am currently doing a discipleship training school with YWAM (youth with a mission). in our school we have been told by one teacher that the bible is 100 % contradiction-free. and i was so relieved to hear that. !! but now this problem came up when i read john, and i don´t know what to do about it !

my trheology and image of the word of god has taken damage, please help me.

THE PROBNLEM:

john 1,35-42 says:

*andrew, simon peter´s brother, was a former disciple of john the baptist before he followed jesus.
* the 2 disciples walk after jesus and he turns around when he gets aware of this, then he asks them where they go and things take their turn


mathew 4, 18-22 says:

*simon peter´s brother andrew and simon peter himself
*do their fishing job on the lake,
*then jesus passes by
*and JESUS calls them to follow
*and they do

sow how can this function together ?
don´t you see clear contradiction ?

am i a pharisee ? i thought there was nada contradiction in the word.
i am sad about this.

help me !

be blessed

MB

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visionary

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Two people witness an accident, in their report to the police, there seems to be contradictory accounts of what happened. Upon further investigation it is found that one writer knew a little more background of the two involved and incorporated it into his version.

Same is true in this instance.
 
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johnd

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You will discover that human language / communication / interpretation are flawed. This is why legal documents are so complicated. If man were to write the Bible it would not only have undergone an infinite number of revisions, but it would take the Library of Congress to contain the basic draft.

The Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit upon men who wrote it as they saw it using their own words:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

In very few places in the Bible did God dictate his word verbatim to the writing prophet. Still, it was under God's supervision / inspiration. And it bore in mind the imperfection of human language / communication / interpretation. this is why so much of scripture and theology is repeated in one form or another to convey meaning and to gain understanding omitting opinion.

The Gospel accounts are either eyewitness accounts written by the eyewitnesses or the amanuences of them, or as the Gospel of Luke is a collection of eyewitness testimonies to be used as trial documents for the Apostle Paul's appeal to Ceasar (as is also the book of Acts).

Verbatim eyewitness accounts would be highly suspect of collusion. If four people see a car crash, the police officer gathering eyewitness evidence would get four different accounts of the same event.

The Bible is flawless and can and should be read and studied under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit who inspired it. But human language / communication / interpretation is where any error or perceived error lies.

The wonder to marvel at is that God subjected his pristine, flawless word to human language / communication / interpretation anyway.
 
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bluemarkus

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hello everybody :)

first i want to thank everybody who answered me.

secondly, i want to say that indeed it is a big gift that we can have this word, through which god has already spoken to me directly.

i think i will keep this question in the back of my head and include it in my prayers, maybe one day it will have a checked box at the side .

maybe this also is a sign for me that i should not treat the bible as an idool, but to stay closer to god´s heart and speak to him directly, for he loves it, i know that. he wants me to come in humility and to pour out my heart, not to understand everything.

our god is an awesome god

greetings to all of you guys

:)

MB
 
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Bon

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bluemarkus said:
hello everybody :)
i think i will keep this question in the back of my head and include it in my prayers, maybe one day it will have a checked box at the side .

:)
MB

It will MB,

....as you grow in the spirit to maturity, through your prays and studies of the Word of Yahweh (God).

Right now you are being fed milk....as you are but a baby in Yahshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ), but as you grow in wisdom and knowlegde of the spirit, you will be fed meat (solid food).

1 Corinthians 3:2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal (fleshly).

You see, as we become more and more spiritually mature, we are slowly putting the things of the world...(our fleshly nature) behind us.
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This is an excerpt from an article called
"Spinning the New Testement"
It is in the very nature of language that enables statements of fact to be amenable to multiple interpretation. A single set of facts can provide diverse meanings in many languages. A skilled spin master argues facts to make his or her point plausible and convincing. The search for truth and meaning is not the objective but rather the advancing of a cause, damage control, or winning. In spinning, the goal is for us to adopt the opinions the spin masters want us to reach and to accept the reality they wish us to believe. The effective spin doctor spins the facts to bring us there. It is, of course, quite self-serving and results in an inaccurate understanding of the facts themselves.

Editorial, Scribal, and Translator Spin
Based upon the premises and biases of their own society, ancient scribes, translators, and editors also placed their spins on the New Testament. These distort, obfuscate, and detract from the Gospel and impede an objective understanding of the norms, values, and standards of the ancient Church and the apostles' doctrine. Scores of these spins remain with us to this day. Is this significant? Often it is crucial to both Christian life and doctrine.

Consider the two most accepted critical texts of the New Testament, namely Eberhard Nestle's Novum Testamentum Graece (Nestle 1993) and the United Bible Societies’ The Greek New Testament (Aland 1993). Both are commendable scholarly efforts to resolve ambiguity and to create the best possible critical Greek text from the hundreds of extant ancient Greek manuscripts and thousands of fragments. Nevertheless, exegesis always precedes translation, even in regard to the editing of these two widely accepted critical texts themselves, in something as simple as word, sentence, and paragraph breaks, let alone in capitalization and in the discernment of proper nouns.

According to R. Omanson, writing in the Bible Review, "literally thousands of decisions are made by translators" relating to the original meaning of words in context as well as grammatical constructions and the segmentation and punctuation of the text (Omanson 1998:43). With regards to these issues, Omanson points out that:

...the editors of these editions do not always agree on where breaks and punctuation marks should appear. And translators sometimes depart from the segmentation and punctuation found in these critical texts based on their own understanding of the New Testament writings. Their decisions can create real differences in meaning, as is shown by comparing several modern translations. (Omanson 1998:40.)

The apostles chose the koine Greek as the language by which they published their apostolic complement to the Hebrew Scriptures. The early koine Greek texts of the New Testament had no punctuation. Their letters were all capital letters, in long strings, known as majuscules. The authors' intention of chapter and paragraph breaks are not always clear. Greek texts are not necessarily duplicates of the originals free of scribal error and editing. As a result, unknown to many laity and clergy, a cloud of ambiguity is inherent in the material. For the most part this ambiguity is not problematic but there are some subtle biblical texts where it is in issue.

More critical, however, is the altering of early New Testament texts to support Greco-Roman Christological doctrine by orthodox scribes of the second and third centuries (Ehrman 1993) and the later redaction of the Greek New Testament in the ninth century by dualistic Greco-Roman theologians when they adopted minuscules, added punctuation, and segregated words. Minuscules are the small or lower case Greek letters, and the small Greek cursive script developed from the uncial. The final product, the underlying structure of the later critical texts, replete with orthodox doctrinal spin, represented the Greco-Roman Christian worldview of those engaged in these efforts. According to church historian Justo González, during the Renaissance came the slow realization that the Christianity which then existed was not what it had once been.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I pray that our Heavenly Father, by His Holy Spirit, opens your mind to His truth and wisdom in your new walk in the spirit.

shalom from Bon
 
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bluemarkus,

I do not remember the details of the explanation for this but I'll look later and see if I can find it. But it had something to do with our Lord spending a fair amount of time with John and his disciples. That it was a community and before and after His baptism (after the temptation), Christ was mingling with them. There is a scripture in John 1, I believe, that has John the baptist pointing out Christ as the lamb of God sometime after his baptism. It does seem to indicate he was there for a little bit, possibly looking for some of the 12.
 
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prodromos

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bluemarkus said:
THE PROBLEM:

john 1,35-42 says:

*andrew, simon peter´s brother, was a former disciple of john the baptist before he followed jesus.
* the 2 disciples walk after jesus and he turns around when he gets aware of this, then he asks them where they go and things take their turn


mathew 4, 18-22 says:

*simon peter´s brother andrew and simon peter himself
*do their fishing job on the lake,
*then jesus passes by
*and JESUS calls them to follow
*and they do

so how can this function together ?
don´t you see clear contradiction ?
The way I understand this is that John 1 describes their initial introduction to Jesus, after which they went back to their daily routine. Matthew 4 happens at a later date and is when Jesus actually calls them to be His disciples. If you think about it, had they not already met Jesus and got to know Him a little then it is highly unlikely that they would have dropped what they were doing and left everything behind when Jesus called them to follow Him. He would have been a stranger to them regardless of what they had heard about Him from others. The fact that they are willing to leave their old lives behind them at His simple command shows they already know and respect Him from earlier encounters.

Them's my thoughts anyways :D.

John.
 
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johnd

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bluemarkus said:
i want to say that indeed it is a big gift that we can have this word, through which god has already spoken to me directly.
Is that direct speech from God to you in any way in conflict with the Bible, Markus?

We are to test the Spirits (1 John 4:1) to see whether they are from God or not. The test must be made by (according to) the revealed Word of God the Bible.

maybe this also is a sign for me that i should not treat the bible as an idool,
No. Not as and idol but as a measuring rod for truth which none of us possess in our rationale.

While I do believe the Holy Spirit can and does prompt us when something is not right, I have had this experience at least twice myself which later proved to be correct in both cases, we ourselves are such poor judges of Spiritual character that we must test what we are prompted with by the Word of God.

Be very careful!
 
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bluemarkus

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so, here´s my replies guys/ladies :)

johnd: as to the direct speaking, i am 100% sure that it was from god. no doubt about it.

i think the bible is such a big gift to us because we can check so many things with it, all the doctrines and theologies we get thrown at can we filter through it, what a privilege, all these poor guys out there in the world are led astray by doctrine after doctrine, headline after headline, news after news, trend after trend... so i agree with you, i am also a more rational type, had an agnostic mindset (2 years) before i converted, and i prefer to live by something that´s certain instead by something that (sometimes) needs interpretation (spiritual input), which can also be a big gift, but why ask for special guidance before you haven´t in your veins the very word of god ?
first i need to read the bible at least 1 time. then the summary of all the chapters again. thats my decision. that will be my basis.

@ bible as an idol: i think sometimes god wants me to pray more and open my life more to others, because only accumulating godly wisdom throught bible study is pretty selfish.(at least it can be) i used to be a pretty singularist individual (western style :) ) so i have to take care. thats why i wanted to say with "bible as an idol".

prodromos: yes, when i met with one of my christian friends of my village, we discussed this issue and pretty much ended up with the same result: somehow the disciples and jesus must have met more than one time before they decided to lay down their jobs and dedicate their lives to be disciples of JC. maybe in one story "following" means, going after/walking with him from A to B, and in the other story the writer talks about the calling itself.
i also was fooled by the paragraph titles inside the bibles, which are not the word of god, but are inserted later for better understanding.

bon: that was hard to read for me (german man). i pray and hope that i will grow in spiritual things, i see a need to grow in that sphere in my life.
the article is also interesting to me personally because in the latter part it speaks of the word of god altered by humans and aligned to make it work better with the distinct christianism of the time, place and culture.
3 days ago i discovered that we have a so called "revised luther translation"[in "contemporary language"] in germany in the hands of many simple people. i discovered that in
proverbs 14,1 they get the sense of that verse totally wrong, it says no longer[in the sense] "the good woman builds her house successfully, the bad woman tears hers down", but "the goodness of woman builds her house, but her badness tears it down".
this is a bad thing ! not everything that is called bible is a bible.
let´s not make the word something we(21 century fools) can read better like a john grisham novel , lets rejoice that we have the word of god available, what a privilege !

greetings be to you all

MB
 
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jbarcher

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I'll take a look at the OP (original post/poster) in a moment, but I want to say this...

"only accumulating godly wisdom throught bible study is pretty selfish.(at least it can be)"

Yes, it can be. But the result is, as you live it out in day-to-day life, others are generally, positively affected. Ever had a wise person to go to, someone who would listen and give honest thoughts? You might turn out like that to some in time. :)

Great about not treating the Bible like an idol. :) Now, let me take a look...

John 1:43 seems to "lead into" Matthew 4:18. Let me put them (John 1:37-43, Matthew 4:18-22, both NAS) together to see what that looks like:

(John) The two disciples heard him [John the Baptist] speak, and they followed Jesus. And Jesus turned and saw them following, and said to them, "What do you seek?" They said to Him, "Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?" He said to them, "Come, and you will see." So they came and saw where He was staying; and they stayed with Him that day, for it was about the tenth hour. One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son ofJohn; you shall be called Cephas" (which is translated Peter). The next day He purposed to go into Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, "Follow Me."

(Matthew) Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called them. Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.

There might have been sightings of Jesus, and also that those He first called were not very well known. This is at the beginning of His ministry and popularity, so recalling generally unknown people could well lead to such accounts. Also, the Matthew account has one important character that may mean more accuracy, at least with the James/John calling--Zebedee their father. How'd you like some random guy calling away your sons while they're helping you with something?
 
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Dmckay

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First, relax, take a deep breath and ask the Holy Spirit to clear your mind of the trouble and confusion and ask him to direct your study.

One of the first things that they should have taught you is that there are four Gospel accounts for a reason. Each of the writer's had a different audience and intent for their writing of the gospel that they wrote. This is part of the reason that there are some minor differences in their writings, because they were trying to emphasis different things.

Matthew was a Jew. He was also the tax collector called Levi who is mentioned later in the gospels. As a Jew, he was writing specifically to a Jewish audience in order to present Jesus as the promised Messiah to His people. You will notice that both Matthew and Luke give detailed geneologies of Jesus. However, if you take the time to read through them you will find that they are different. Contradiction? No! Matthew traces Jesus' geneology through his adopted father Joseph back to David the King to establish Jesus' legal right to be the King.

Mark wrote to the Romans and presents Jesus as a powerful servant. As such he records more of Jesus miracles than any other of the Gospel writers because the Romans were impressed with power. Mark also was not an immediate disciple of Jesus and was probably writing second hand from what he learned from Peter as he worked with him.

Luke was a Greek Doctor and the only Gentile to write in the New Testament. He worked with the Apostle Paul, was very educated, and was a historian at heart. His Gospel is the most detailed and probably the most chronological in scope. the other writers were more interested in telling the Gospel from the point of view that emphasized what they felt was the most important. Luke presented Jesus as the Son of Man emphasizing the humanity of the God/man. He talks more about Jesus relationships with other people, prayer and women. Luke also gives the geneology of Jesus, but he traces it through His mother Mary and takes it all the way back to Adam, really stressing Jesus' humanity.

John was a theologian, and wrote to the whole world presenting Jesus as God. Many say that John is the easist Gospel to read and understand, and usually suggest it as the best starting point for a new Christian. However, after over 30 years of study I have come to realize that this is mistake. John is the most complicated of the gospels and is recognized for its diffference from the other three. Matthew, Mark and Luke are called the synoptic Gospels because they are so similar. Even though they have differing points of view. John doesn't try to present the life of Jesus in any kind of real chronological order. This is part of the reason that you think that you see contradictions. John actually records just seven miracles, with a bit of the surrounding context along with seven sermons or messages of Jesus that go with the miracles. John did this in order to emphasize and prove the diety of Jesus. At times I have been completely blown away over the realization of how John takes these inter-related things and lays them out in a supposedly simple way to prove that Jesus is God.

If you read through the verses that you thought you were having problems with you will notice that at first Simon Peer and Andrew are disciples of John the Baptist. John points them to Jesus and they follow Him to learn more about Him. They haven't yet been called to become Jesus' disciples and later Apostles.

One thing that may be helpful to you is a great book called the Life of Christ in Stereo by Johnstone M. Cheney. Cheney was stricken by TB while studying for the ministry. He was laid up for several years because physically there was little he could do. He began memorizing the Gospels in Greek to keep his mind active and busy. As he did so he realized that the Gospels in Greek could grammatically be fitted together into a narrative story that made perfect sense. If was like all four of the Gospels were just parts of the picture that needed to be fitted toghther to see the whole picture.

His finished work actually has answered many of the supposed contradictions of the New Testament, some of which hadn't even been noticed yet by many individuals. For instance, how many times did Peter deny Jesus? most would say 3 times. But when you read Cheney's compilation of the Gospels you see that during the last supper Jesus told Peter that before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed that night he(Peter) would deny Jesus 3 times. As they walked over to the Mount of Olivet Peter comes to Jesus and says to Him that your wrong, if all these deny you I will stand with you. Jesus then tells Peter before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows twice you will deny me three more times.

After Jesus is taken, if you write down where Peter is, and who he is talking to each time he denies Jesus you find that he denies Jesus three times and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows. He denies Jesus three more times and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows twice. Peter looks up and sees Jesus looking at him sadly, and Peter goes out and weeps bitterly.

There are NO contradictions in the Bible, there are only problems in ou understanding that we have not yet corrected. In over 30 years of studying Scripture in both Hebrew and Greek I have never found a question that could not be answered with enough prayer and study.
 
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bluemarkus

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thank you don

be assured that i did not have more time during my dts to read more, my mates over the last few weeks started to dislike my strongmindedness because i never socialized and always read so much.

now i am through and have gathered many answers, also for christmas i got a brandnew amp bible and i ordered another NASB study bible which i will use.

my school is not a bible school, it is a discipleship training school, that is why we have not so much theology.

if i will be able to gather the money i´d like to do an SBS (school of biblical studies) afterwards.

i can remember from like 10th grade in school that the gospel of johns was something special, but that was a long time ago.

i have rarely time to read christian secondary literature, and am careful in picking my books, but if i´ll find the time (when we will be back from outreach in malawi) i think i will read the proposed book.

everybody be blessed, let us, with the help of the spirit, well represent the bible and its unimaginable power and knowledge in this struggling world

MB
 
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