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Calling all Bible literalists...

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Nathan Poe, Apr 10, 2003.

  1. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    Please, Johnny, it's too early in the day for personal insults.

    Neither I, nor Satan, nor your God of "mercy, grace, and forgiveness" would ever drop-kick anyone into the Inferno for eating shellfish, wearing blended clothes, or touching a dead pig.
    But that's not the God I read about in Leviticus.
     
  2. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    Sounds like we agree.

    God had to write 61 books to help us understand the first five? Sounds like poor writing to me ;)
     


    And what you found in your heart made a lot more sense than what you found in the book, I'll bet.

    Except that revelation is meaningless when it comes second-hand. Moses went up a mountain; Moses came back down with a couple of stone tablets which he told everyone God gave him. Now if a Divine Revelation took place, it was strictly between God and Moses. Beyond that, we'd have to take his word for it. And we're certainly under no oblgation to do so.

    I'll make it easy. It just so happens that I too have had a similar Divine Revelation. God appeared to me just as he did to Moses, re-dictated the Ten Commandments, and charged me to go forth and spread this news to the world. There's just one difference: In the revelation, God appeared to me in the form of an English Sheepdog named "Bosko."

    Now, you are under no obligation to believe my story, and I'll bet you don't. But Moses told the Isrealites that he saw God alone on a mountaintop, and the story gets passed down for thousands of years and put in a book, and you call that the Word of God.

    Would you explain the difference to me?

    If you have the Spirit in your heart, then why bother with the book? 


    Wait a minute, you just said that the Holy Spirit is the teacher. Now the Bible is? I do wish you'd make up your mind. :scratch:

    And when you find evidence that the Flood happened, I'll show you evidence of what happened before it.

    Empty rhetoric. Proves nothing.

    Most of the Egyptian, Greek, and Roman cities of Biblical times are still up and thriving. Your point is...?
     
  3. paulewog

    paulewog Father of Insanity; Child of Music.

    +369
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    The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, and also helps us understand it.

    Actually, no - we're just big, thick-headed, stupid, sin-natured men that need it explained.
     
  4. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Let me see you do better. Why don't you write a book and we can all get together in 3500 years and see if it's still in print.




     
     
  5. paulewog

    paulewog Father of Insanity; Child of Music.

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    and while you're at it, make sure you write it on papyrus scrolls ;)
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    It's the same thing. God writes on peoples heart. He wrote on their heart, he wrote on my heart, he wrote on your heart. He writes the same thing on everyone's heart. That is why Shakespear said:  "to thyself be true". Because God has written the truth on ever human heart.

    I have no problem with second hand stories. I am excited for people to share with me what God is showing them and what God is doing in their life.

    What I have problems with is third hand stories. Things tend to get lost along the way. Some things have been repeated so many times over and over again, that you do not even know what the origional story was.

    It can save time. Moses was 80 years old when he began his ministry and he died at 120 years of age. So he can share with us what he learned in his life time.

    I use to enjoy to read the autobiography books of people who lived in Alaska or in some sort of wilderness area. Once I read a book written by a man who was a horse and buggy doctor.  

    Some people never grow up and some people never grow in understanding. But there are those who do, and by the end of their life they have learned enough to write a book and to share with us what they have learned.

    You know, really, I do not what to insult you, but why do you have trouble understanding third grade level stuff? Maybe your trying to make it to complicated.

    The Holy Spirit is the teacher of the people who gave us our Bible. Before Jesus died on the cross, it was more common for the Holy Spirit to come upon people. Now it is more common for people to be filled with the Holy Spirit of God.

    They lived Holy, Sanctifed, Dedicated, Consecrated lives, so God used them. We can be used by God just as God uses them. God is no respector of persons. He does not favor one person over another person.

    What are you talking about. There is tons of evidence for the flood. They are finding new clay tablets all the time in archeology sites that tell us about the flood.

    Sounds like you need to study up on your history a bit.  

    It only proves nothing if we do not allow God to wash and cleanse us. God does not give knowledge to us for our entertainment. He wants us to be cleansed of our filth and defilement. For those who are not willing to be cleansed, they will live in ignorance.  


    The point was, there is nothing left of Sodom and Gomorah, so there must be a reason that God allowed them to be destroyed. The point it, find out why God allowed those cities to be destroyed. Learn the lesson that history has to tell us. We do not want to be doomed to repeat their mistakes and errors and end up in the same way that they ended up.
     
  7. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    That does add to the challange. If you write on clay, then you can just come back in 3500 years and dig it up and there is a pretty good chance it will still be in good shape.

    If the clay is in a fire, that just bakes it and makes it harder. So that it endures all that much better.
     
  8. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Common guy, this is really basic stuff. What we accuse others of is often what we are guilty of. That is why we need to be so careful when we judge, because we really only know ourselves. We may think we are judgeing others, but really we are only judgeing ourself.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.incommunion.org/pictures/Pogo.jpg

    Also, something else you may want to consider. Things are going to come back on us. If your a skeptic then that is going to come back on you in a equal measure. People are going to be as skeptical with you as you are with them. People are going to treat us, the way we treat them. Maybe not the same people, but it comes back on us just the same.

    My wife for example is a very loving person, and people are very loving with her. People treat her pretty much the way she treats others.  
     
  9. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    I think some guys named Plato, Aristotle, Homer (not Simpson), Lao-Tse, Sun Tzu, and Confucius, among others,  beat me to it.
     
  10. paulewog

    paulewog Father of Insanity; Child of Music.

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    Yes, and they wrote it over that long of a period time....? No. One author, and one lifetime.

    It didn't have to be preserved through being captured, temple destroyed, etc.

    It didn't have to be preserved through all the "bible-burnings," and the many people that have tried to completely get rid of the Bible...

    And yes, I did say "no contradictions" :angel:
     
  11. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Oh yeah, that is some real controversial stuff you got there.

    You could perhaps find enough stuff on Plato or Aristotle to put together a course or two on them.

    So you want to compare someone that you can learn about all there is to learn in three months time. Compared to Moses who you could study for 8 years and you would just be getting started to learn all that he has to teach us.
     
  12. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    This above all, to thine own self be true,

    And it must follow, as the night the day,

    Thou canst not be false to any man.

    Hamlet, I.iii.78-80

    Taken in context, Polonius' advice to Laertes is about maintaining personal reputation, not about God's truth.

    Misquoting Shakespeare is not going to help you.



    And how many hands did the Bible pass through before we got it?

    Is learning from the Holy Spirit too slow for you? What's your hurry? ;) ;) ;)  

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't part of what Moses allegedly wrote take place after his death? How'd he pull that off? Prophecy, right?

    Okay, I'll play along...

    Holy spirit to people to the Bible to us. Ok, I think I'm with you so far...

    Huh? Are there two Holy Spirits here? When was it more common: before or after jesus' death?

    Now you know this doesn't fit the dogma. God does not favor a believer over a non-believer?



    Well, if a clay tablet says it, it must be true.

    And you need to study up on your geology.

    The whole message of Paine's chapter was to claim that we need to trust the evidence more than what somebody wrote down thousands of years before we were born.

    That goes for the Bible or your mystical "clay tablets."



    Ignorance of the world around us seems to be the price of a literal Bible. 




    The point is that there is nothing left of Sodom and Gomorah, and nothing in secular research to prove they even existed (although they may have), muxh less if God destroyed them how and why the Bible claims he did.

    But we do agree on one thing, John: there is nothing left of Sodom and Gomorah.

    Another thing we agree on: Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it. I'm dreading the next Inquisition.
     
  13. paulewog

    paulewog Father of Insanity; Child of Music.

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    They have, however, found a place over there where the rocks are very strange... almost.... they look like they were melted somehow. And nothing is there, either. Nothing. Rock.
     
  14. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    Call it what you want; it's still an "I know you are, but what am I?" arguement. That sort of thing gets old after third grade.


    I sincerely hope so. As a teacher, I want skeptical students. I've told them as much: I'm human. I've made mistakes in the past. I will continue to do so in the future. You think I'm wrong? You know where the library is. Extra credit for anyone who spots one of my errors before I do.

    My teachers were intelligent people who challenged me to think for myself, did not allow me to settle for doing what everyone else did, and encouraged me to be creative and original. I hope all that comes back in a Karmic sort of way...
     
  15. Osthuvud

    Osthuvud New Member

    37
    +0


    A council convened on the NT, but my knowledge about this is nil.  The OT had already been decided by Jewry.  Jesus had no complaints about the OT, so I don't.  There are a couple thousand ancient NT manuscripts that are used to give us our Bible, and too many saints have spilled their blood in defense of the NT.  If God doesn't have enough influence to preserve His word, then He won't be resurrecting anyone either.


    What are you insinuating by that, Poe?

    Actually, a number of the new translations are more to satisfy wants of political correctness.  Only God can judge the heart, but the motives don't appear to be genuine.  As far as risking souls on their honesty, I stick to the KJV. 

    When you say "the Church", you are referring to the Roman Catholic church.  Yes, they had the Bible under lock and key so they could promote any doctrine they chose without dispute.  I believe this is referred to as the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes by Jesus in Revelation 2 and 3.  (Nicolaitane means "destruction of the people" according to the Blue Letter Bible which is a direct translation of the Greek.)  Meanwhile the blood was spilling in the Holy land with the crusades, in Europe with the Inquisition, and then again with the Reformation.

    There are others who feel "the church" is the collection of all true believers in Jesus Christ.  It has nothing to do with human leadership, nothing to do with property.  But as scripture says, the believers are the body of Christ who have the Holy Spirit within them.  Those who burned Tyndale weren't likely part of the true church.

    That's like the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland killing each other for centuries.  Do you think they're Christians too?  Is anyone who refers to themselves as a Christian, a Christian?

     

    You've already made your point that you can find small discrepancies.  Show me one that destroys a crucial doctrine and you'll have an audience with me. 

     

    Before I answer this, I can't help but wonder what your motive is.  You seem to know scripture better than most people I know who claim to be Christian (outside of the ones that go to the same church as I do).  Has this forum replaced your third century seat in the Colliseum?

    I am fully aware of the warning at the end of Revelation.  But this warning goes out to all those who add or subtract from it.  That would be the translating perpetrators.  However, going back to the OT, which had no complaints from Jesus himself, Psalm 12 has that covered in verses 6 and 7.  It says that the LORD will preserve his word FOREVER.  That's good enough for me.

     
     

    Whooooooaaah!  So what is this, Poe's Law?

    I guess you really are becoming a celebrity, and with good cause.  You just brought evolution from theory status to LAW.  I think I'm starting to understand who YOU think GOD is.  After all, add one letter to Poe, and you have the title of one who millions of people feel is the most holy person on earth.   :priest:

     

    It's called entropy, and it's the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics.  one of the products of "The Curse". 

     

    PROVE????  Just what have you been smoking?  More laws of the universe????  I think Poe's Law is going to your head.  I checked out your site.  People think that they find something on the internet and it's got to be true.  This joker is talking about Global Warming.  There's a tip right there!

    You can have your made up laws, and your scientists that have to find favorable conclusions to continue to get their government funds.  I'll stick to the Law of God.
     
  16. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

    +753
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    Single
    US-Others
    KJV Micah 6:8
    Where does it say you have to believe dogma? Of course if the bible is truly the mandated word of your god, then you have to believe that it doesn't matter what you believe. It matters what you do, and how you do it.



    KJV:


    Follower followed up at 4/11/03 07:23 PM in Post #19


    Now , Follower, you know how quickly you lose respect for anyone who doesn't agree with you. Usually, the feeling is mutual.



    The last I checked your holy book isn't required reading anywhere.  Though some of your ilk want to require it in public schools.

     



    That's because he was Jewish, right?





    Unless he wanted to be understood. Hebrew was the liturgical language. The common folk spoke Aramaic. Educated people spoke Koine, a form of Greek. The politically ambitious spoke Latin.





    At least one of those three languages would probably have been spoken by 95% or more by the average crowd.





    Preaching beats working for a living all hollow.



    Yesterday at 01:30 PM paulewog said this in Post #16



    I thought the different "authors" were just taking dictation.  I have heard this described as the "Charlie McCarthy - Edgar Bergen" school of theology.





    KJV 1 Chronicles 21:1
    KJV 2 Samuel 24:1


    Look it up: Same census. Is "Satan" a pseudonym? 

     

    Today at 04:37 AM Nathan Poe said this in Post #31 (to Follower)



    Probably, but Follower does not recognize that he needs help. He does though. I have run into him on other threads.

     

    FOC:


    I use my reason and my free will, trying to being merciful to those who are merciful.


    FOC:
    (Galatians 1:8-9 LITV)



    I guess we'll meet in Hell, Nathan. Paul is superior even to God in authority. And Follower is the only licensed interpreter.



    Follower:


    With a little help from Follower.



    JohnR7 chimed in with:


    Plato has Socrates claim that Homer should be burned because he portrayed the gods in a bad light. I believe that Confucius was banned in China. It's controversy that helps keep a book going. Your holy book, JohnR7, has been fought over since it was written; thousands of sects of true believers can't agree with one another what it means. As a collection of diverse works, written with diverse intents, it is remarkable. But consistent it is not!


    JohnR7:


    ROFLSHISM (Rolling on the floor laughing so hard I soiled myself.)



    JohnR7:
     

    Like when two men are fighting and the wife of one of them grabs the other by the private parts you have to cut her hand off? Now there's a situation that keeps coming up!  It's a law of God! It is kind of hard to fathom.  I can believe it would take JohnR7 at least six months.



    As Jesus pointed out you to legalists (rendered as "lawyers" in KJV Luke 11:52 )


    One more time, because it will take at least eight years for Follower and JohnR7 to get it: (KJV Micah 6:8) He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

     
     
  17. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, that could be that you will find dust and ashes as the remains, or melted rock or whatever. But there is nothing in the way of potter, clay tablets or anything like that.
     
  18. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like we are back to Holden and people being phony. 



    There could be some dust and ashes left.

    You are dreading that? Like I said, it is all going to be a one man show. You will prosecute yourself and be your own star witness. You will even be the judge to decide the verdict.

    Or sense your a skeptic, maybe you think it will be a Kangaroo court where the only plea allowed is: Gulity as Charged. But you will be allowed to make any plea you want, it is just that you will only be allowed to use the truth. There will be no falsehoods or lies there on that day. Only the truth.
     
  19. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

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    They found "a place." This has what to do with Sodom and Gomorah?

    "This must be the spot! The Bible says nothing was left, and we found nothing!" :(
     
  20. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

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    Do a little research on the history of Aristotle's works, and you'll find that we're pretty lucky to have anything of his. Burnings, hoardings, etc...
     
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