California ID class is sacked

[Edx]

basically: you propose that every high school student should spent the rest of his life to verify all the knowlegde that is currently presented in high school? .

Reposted for effect.

Ed

 

[Mystman]

ouch.

that's one large typo >_<

 

[Tomk80]

Tom, I surprised usually your ideas are well formulated and logical, I tend to disagree but such is the nature of ideas on society. Usually you don’t try to prove a point and feed another’s argument. I’m going to post twice because I see two things wrong with your post the first which I think is more important is the elitism commentary, the next post will be about a misunderstanding that we seem to have run across.

On to elitism, this part of your post is very confusing you can see other mentions to this as well. Your basic premise seems to be that in order to be able to comment on something of an academic nature you must be formal educated. I won’t argue the fact that being formally educated helps but I will argue the fact that you can effectively think critically with out years of post-secondary schooling. To say that you can’t would just be a simple re-statement of my assertion. That however good natured our schools systems (speaking more to the US), they have been taken over and are being used as a method of control. Just because someone does not have a B.S. after their name does not mean they can not contribute to society, in forms of thought. Your assertion by its very nature is elitism.

One Love.

Not really. If you want to be sure that children get the right information, the information that is presented needs to be checked. The only ones who can do that, are those with an intimite grasp of the subject, ie. the experts. Someone who hasn't got a full grasp of the theory, isn't going to be able to check it. If you want to make sure that the right information is presented to children, so that every child gets the right information, you need the experts to check the information.

Creationism makes very clear that checking this information without having prefessional assistance often does not lead to a good understanding of the basic concepts.

 

[Tomk80]

Ok now this misunderstanding point. I’ll use the most basic teaching method. Its called Show, Do, Evaluate.

The teacher shows how a tool works in this case how to properly use testing equipment, then the students do the experiment come up with results, then the teacher will evaluate the process and the results.

Thus the name Show, Do, Evaluate.

What happens in schools is give answers and evaluate. I have no problem for the most part subject matter that is covered in high schools my problem is with how it is covered.

One Love.

But a theory like evolution cannot be presented in this way. Much of the evidence takes years of examination (such as allele fluctuations in populations) or an advanced knowledge of testing methods (for example, sequencing of ERV's in DNA).

Most of the theories cannot be evaluated in school in the way that would be necessary. What do you propose to do with these theories? Ignore them?

 

[Deamiter]

closed for review.

 

[Deamiter]

Let's not get onto the topic of sexism here okay?

 

[Erock83]

But a theory like evolution cannot be presented in this way. Much of the evidence takes years of examination (such as allele fluctuations in populations) or an advanced knowledge of testing methods (for example, sequencing of ERV's in DNA).

Most of the theories cannot be evaluated in school in the way that would be necessary. What do you propose to do with these theories? Ignore them?

Well instead of having the teacher do all the work by demonstrating a concept why don’t the student do it? If your answer is money then you just feed my elitism argument. If your answer is laziness then aging you feed my elitism argument. If your answer is time then let’s find the time. The mean time that a high schooler is in class per day as dropped by one hour over the last 10 years (again US number). There is the time but for some reason they are spending less time in the class room. Why? Not sure I have not done enough reading and thinking on this topic to give a good reason why but the time is there we just need to make it happen. Lets not be complacent about education lets be pro-active. Being complacent only allows the religious right a window of opportunity to slip ideas like IDism and YEC into classrooms.

One Love.

 

[Tomk80]

Well instead of having the teacher do all the work by demonstrating a concept why don’t the student do it?

How? By doing the research a biologist spends years doing? How do you picture this?

If your answer is money then you just feed my elitism argument. If your answer is laziness then aging you feed my elitism argument. If your answer is time then let’s find the time.

For which discipline. You're not talking about a single discipline here. And what do you want them to present?

The mean time that a high schooler is in class per day as dropped by one hour over the last 10 years (again US number). There is the time but for some reason they are spending less time in the class room. Why? Not sure I have not done enough reading and thinking on this topic to give a good reason why but the time is there we just need to make it happen. Lets not be complacent about education lets be pro-active. Being complacent only allows the religious right a window of opportunity to slip ideas like IDism and YEC into classrooms.

One Love.

So again, what do you want them to do and how. What is your lesson plan?

 

[Erock83]

How? By doing the research a biologist spends years doing? How do you picture this?

I have no problem with repetition of thing to teach the basics. I’m not advocating that HS become cutting edge laboratories just that they take the subject matter they want to teach kids and give them the tools and guidance to learn those basic instead of just handing out that information and hope students understand the methods of how those basics came to be basics.

One Love.

 

[Mystman]

I have no problem with repetition of thing to teach the basics. I’m not advocating that HS become cutting edge laboratories just that they take the subject matter they want to teach kids and give them the tools and guidance to learn those basic instead of just handing out that information and hope students understand the methods of how those basics came to be basics.

One Love.

How about a concrete example?

For example: genetics. How would you teach that to high school students?

 

[Erock83]

How about a concrete example?

For example: genetics. How would you teach that to high school students?

Well I think we can all agree that it would be bad for the teacher just to stand up in front of the class and tell them verbatim out of a text book.

“Your DNA defines all physical things in your of your body”

This is bad for a lot of reasons

1) Boring

2) Why should I care

3) What the Hell is DNA?

4) Yeah right my daddy said I was made by God

5) So on and so forth I can only think like a 14 y/o for so long before wanting to puke

Instead it could be a two part thing.

Teacher: What defines or causes people to have different hair and eye color?

Go to the library and come back in groups of three and present your findings to the class.

30min latter students give presentation the teachers takes the good conclusions puts them on a list and the bad conclusion and puts them on a list them next class period explains why the methods which reached the good conclusions are valid and shows how the methods that reached the bad conclusions caused the faulty results. Then the teacher can expand upon the findings. Ahh critical thinking and self motivated education. I need a Newport.

One Love.

 

[Mystman]

...

This post doesn't really mesh with the ones about kids needing to do their own experiments.

Wether kids are spoonfed info from a book or from a teacher: they are still spoonfed.

 

[Erock83]

This post doesn't really mesh with the ones about kids needing to do their own experiments.

Wether kids are spoonfed info from a book or from a teacher: they are still spoonfed.

Sure it does because reading and exploring published works is an active learning process. Sitting in class while staring at the hottie across from you while a teacher drones on and on is inactive. When a student is required to sift through information they will start to learn with the help of a good teacher to start thinking critically to what it means and will be able to apply it to other disciplines, both the active learning and the problem solving method. That has been proven and proven over and over again by child and educational psychologist. My point is we need to start applying this knowledge, not doing so is just a crime to the youth and the educational system.

One Love.

 

[Tomk80]

This post doesn't really mesh with the ones about kids needing to do their own experiments.

Wether kids are spoonfed info from a book or from a teacher: they are still spoonfed.

Indeed. Also notice that in the above idea, the teacher still checks whether the kids are correct. So they aren't exploring the issue 'on their own' as you implied in previous posts. For this to work in the way you describe it, the teacher still has a course syllabus that would be determined by experts. So a solution to the 'elitist dominance' that you see wouldn't be reached through this method.

Not that I disagree that having such assignments in the curriculum isn't worthwhile. The reason I went to Maastricht University is because they apply such a method of teaching. This method is also adopted in many universities around the world. However, experience has also shown that solely using this method isn't the best way either, so a teacher telling the class certain things (or in college/university going to lectures) is needed to complement this method. In universities in the Netherlands, a balance between both methods is currently being sought by many universities.

So, I agree that using the above method in education would be very worthwhile and a very good idea. But it shouldn't be used as the only method, and it isn't a solution to the problem of elitist dominance that you see.

 

[Erock83]

Indeed. Also notice that in the above idea, the teacher still checks whether the kids are correct. So they aren't exploring the issue 'on their own' as you implied in previous posts. For this to work in the way you describe it, the teacher still has a course syllabus that would be determined by experts. So a solution to the 'elitist dominance' that you see wouldn't be reached through this method.

Not that I disagree that having such assignments in the curriculum isn't worthwhile. The reason I went to Maastricht University is because they apply such a method of teaching. This method is also adopted in many universities around the world. However, experience has also shown that solely using this method isn't the best way either, so a teacher telling the class certain things (or in college/university going to lectures) is needed to complement this method. In universities in the Netherlands, a balance between both methods is currently being sought by many universities.

So, I agree that using the above method in education would be very worthwhile and a very good idea. But it shouldn't be used as the only method, and it isn't a solution to the problem of elitist dominance that you see.

They check weather the methods used to formulate the answer were correct, we are talking about Pp not redefining the gravitational coefficient. You as well as half the people on this board would be throwing a hussy fit. If a science teacher was telling students that the acceleration of gravity is 19.8 m/s^2, don’t have a problem with answers I have a problem with how those answers are taught.

Your right just educating students to think critically won’t end elitism but I see it as a wonderful tool to one combat the immoral abuse of our schools as tools of elite, and two I would hope that well educated and critically thinking students would come out of schools with a overall rejection to the notions of elitism.

One Love.

 

[Tomk80]

They check weather the methods used to formulate the answer were correct, we are talking about Pp not redefining the gravitational coefficient. You as well as half the people on this board would be throwing a hussy fit. If a science teacher was telling students that the acceleration of gravity is 19.8 m/s^2, don’t have a problem with answers I have a problem with how those answers are taught.

Yes. So you see that you need to have someone overseeing the learning process, who makes sure that the students aren't using the wrong information sources and who can guide them with learning how the methods to research a subject?

Your right just educating students to think critically won’t end elitism but I see it as a wonderful tool to one combat the immoral abuse of our schools as tools of elite, and two I would hope that well educated and critically thinking students would come out of schools with a overall rejection to the notions of elitism.

One Love.

So what do you mean when you talk about a school system without elitism. How is that going to work? Who is going to check whether the students use the correct methods to research a question and come up with the right answers? What other way is there than to have this done by the experts in the particular field this is about?

 

[Erock83]

Yes. So you see that you need to have someone overseeing the learning process, who makes sure that the students aren't using the wrong information sources and who can guide them with learning how the methods to research a subject?

Ahhhh teachers

So what do you mean when you talk about a school system without elitism. How is that going to work? Who is going to check whether the students use the correct methods to research a question and come up with the right answers? What other way is there than to have this done by the experts in the particular field this is about?

I did detail my point about elitism in the school a few pages back feel free to respond to any or all of it. Ask any questions that you may have. I simply feel that teachers need to take a more proactive role. Teachers should be more of guides and much less of lecturers and answer givers.

One Love.

 

[Tomk80]

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Ahhhh teachers




I did detail my point about elitism in the school a few pages back feel free to respond to any or all of it. Ask any questions that you may have. I simply feel that teachers need to take a more proactive role. Teachers should be more of guides and much less of lecturers and answer givers.

One Love.

But again, than the curriculum these teachers teach will still be decided by the experts, right?

 

[Erock83]

But again, than the curriculum these teachers teach will still be decided by the experts, right?

sure, most members of school boards are not educational experts

 

[Edx]

Sure it does because reading and exploring published works is an active learning process. .

You said give them the tools and hope they figure it out, when I jokingly said all you need do is give them a hammer and chisel instead of teaching them geology you seemed to think this was a fabulous idea.

Ed