California ID class is sacked

MartinM

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Erock83 said:
Schools have breed people that are dependant on others for answers.

Well, we have to be dependant on others to some extent. The days when one person could hold all the scientific knowledge of the world are long gone.

I fully support classes in critical thinking and logic in schools, but arguing the finer points of specific scientific theories isn't appropriate.
 
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Erock83

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Edx said:
You said get rid of all the teaching, jsut give them the tools and "hope" they figure out how to use it.

Ed

No you teach the tool not the answer. If the tool in this case problem solving or the scientific method, I think we both are on the same page correct me if I’m wrong is a good thing. Learning how to use that skill is much more important than understanding the genetic difference between humans and chickens. Why? Because that tool will give you that answer, as well as answers to just about any question you can ask in any subject. Lets face it, as long as there is religion God will be in school. God will be at home, and at some point in a science class, or a literature class when talking about ToE or Canterbury Tales, respectfully a student will raise their and ask how does this affect me and my religious beliefs. There is nothing you can do to stop that.

My contention knowing that is we need to equip students with the ability to answer that questions because if you don’t the burden falls on the educator. This is something that is one outside the scope of what they should be teaching; again something I think we can both agree on. If the student had been taught to take an idea break it down analyzes it, and come up with an answer. Is that not the point of education to give students tools to come up with answers? I would argue yes. People that make discoveries don’t just go around and parrot things they have been told. That would not be a discovery it would be plagiarism. So the real question I’m posing would be do we want our schools to be plagiarism makers, or do we want our schools to create free and independent thinkers?

Honestly I think we both know the answer to that question is with out a doubt the latter.

One Love.
 
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Erock83

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MartinM said:
Well, we have to be dependant on others to some extent. The days when one person could hold all the scientific knowledge of the world are long gone.

I fully support classes in critical thinking and logic in schools, but arguing the finer points of specific scientific theories isn't appropriate.

Sure you can’t posses all that knowledge but there are really neat things out there called books, libraries which have a lot of books, internet which you can find lots of good information on. There are answers out there why don’t we teach students to find them?

Oh yeah we have become lazy and complacent.

One Love.
 
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MartinM

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Erock83 said:
Sure you can’t posses all that knowledge but there are really neat things out there called books, libraries which have a lot of books, internet which you can find lots of good information on. There are answers out there why don’t we teach students to find them?

Finding the answers to detailed scientific questions from books and journals without guidance can often take several years.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Erock83 said:
It would be a red herring, except the part of my dependency point. Schools have breed people that are dependant on others for answers. E.G. church leaders, teachers, ‘experts’ and so on an so forth. My contention is that if you were teaching people how to think, instead of what to think. This problem would be almost a non-issues, if it was even an issue at all.

One Love.

Well, I don't think anything should be taught dogmatically and see nothing wrong with people puzzling out things for themselves.

But at the same time, we need educators and experts to dispense knowledge, especially basic knowledge. It doesn't make sense to re-invent the wheel every single generation, if previous individuals have already figured things out. This is the great thing about being able to pass on knowledge. It lets us build on what has previously been discovered.

There's also simply too much information in the world for a person to become knowledgable about everything. Again, this is why people specialize. So that different people will have different knowledge of different areas, and when combined, humanity gains greater overall knowledge in total.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Erock83 said:
Sure you can’t posses all that knowledge but there are really neat things out there called books, libraries which have a lot of books, internet which you can find lots of good information on. There are answers out there why don’t we teach students to find them?

Oh yeah we have become lazy and complacent.

One Love.

How odd. When I was taught in school (which wasn't *that* long ago) we'd have projects or essays 'n stuff which required outside research. This was in grade school all the way to high school. Are you telling me people don't do that in school anymore?

And, ironically enough, just today in a 2nd year Uni business course (organizational behavior) we were being given details on an independent research assignment. We have to pick a topic and research it and write a paper on it.
 
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Erock83

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MartinM said:
Finding the answers to detailed scientific questions from books and journals without guidance can often take several years.

Well that is why the teacher is not simply pointless, to provide that guidance.

One Love.
 
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ImmortalTechnique

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the real point, however, is that ID doesn't have any scientific challenge to evolution. insofar as it aligns with evolution, it is simply a theistic evolution position- evolution happened, but god helped it.

where it diverges, it has nothing to offer. all of its positive claims (irreducible complexity, etc.) are patent nonsense, and there is no scientific challenge within them. there is simply nothing to teach
 
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Erock83

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Pete Harcoff said:
How odd. When I was taught in school (which wasn't *that* long ago) we'd have projects or essays 'n stuff which required outside research. Are you telling me people don't do that in school anymore?

I’m not saying that it doesn’t get done is some instances. I just say do it more because that is where learning takes place. Spoon feeding answers should never happen unless there is simply no other way to do it.

One Love.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Erock83 said:
I’m not saying that it doesn’t get done is some instances. I just say do it more because that is where learning takes place. Spoon feeding answers should never happen unless there is simply no other way to do it.

One Love.

Well a certain degree of "spoon feeding" is necessary. Like I said, there's no sense trying to re-invent the wheel each time something is taught.
 
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Dr.GH

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whatsizname said:
I fully support classes in critical thinking and logic in schools, but arguing the finer points of specific scientific theories isn't appropriate.

I agree generally that science is best taught in stages, and always with as much "hands on" experience as possible. The trouble is that the creationists are not teaching "critical thinking" or science. The creationists present so-called "failings of Darwinism" as if these are equated with positive support for their religious fanaticism.
 
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The worst of it is that this material about the 'failings of Darwinism', whether genuine or imagined, is presented in such a way that it gives the impression that other fields of study do not have such 'failings'.

They're teaching these poor kids that the rest of science is 100% accurate.

Way to go if you want stupid kids.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Dr.GH said:
The trouble is that the creationists are not teaching "critical thinking" or science. The creationists present so-called "failings of Darwinism" as if these are equated with positive support for their religious fanaticism.

Not only that, but the very fact they focus almost exclusively on evolution betrays their religious motivations and hypocrisy. You NEVER hear creationists argue that holes in other scientific theories should be emphasized or that other scientific theories should be taught (where's the lobbying for Brans-Dicke theory eh? Eh??).

It's all a bunch of rhetoric to disguise the fact that they are scared of scientific theories that threaten their religious beliefs and/or beliefs of their children.
 
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funyun

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Donkeytron said:
I don't know why the Japanese would be happy with this ruling. The harder fundamentalists work to dumb down the science curriculum, the better off foreign kids will be.

Because not everyone in the world is concerned only with how they themselves can get ahead in life at the expense of others.
 
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DailyBlessings

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funyun said:
Because not everyone in the world is concerned only with how they themselves can get ahead in life at the expense of others.
No, the ones who do are just the most successful.
 
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