Cain and Abel

[visionary]

Found an interesting ancient text on the subject.... which is a little different as to the timing of the snake's intercourse with Eve... but the nature of Cain comes through... like father like son...

After Adam and his wife sinned, and the serpent had intercourse with Eve and injected filth into her, Eve bore Cain. He had the shape from above and from below (the earth)... Therefore, he was the first to bring death into the world, caused by his side, as he came from the filth of the serpent. The nature of the serpent is to lurk, so as to kill, and his issue, Cain, learned his ways. - Zohar Pekudei 21:5

 

[visionary]

Her first punishment was death (ok, many hundreds of years later ) but the punishment of being redeemed through childbirth is also a blessing in that it is a promise that messiah would come from her travail... albeit 4000 years later.

In Satan's curse, directed towards the Serpent, God made a prophecy...

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

It states that the seeds (or descendants) of this Serpent will be at enmity with the seeds of Eve. Only her seed is redeemed. God makes the distinction. I don't understand the dividing between those which God will claim or reclaim in this case, but the curse is there, this "enmity" does full bloom in the end with some people receiving Yeshua as their savior and receiving redemption, and those who reject it. The wheat and the tares, look similar but are not of the same seed.

 

[visionary]

Her first punishment was death (ok, many hundreds of years later ) but the punishment of being redeemed through childbirth is also a blessing in that it is a promise that messiah would come from her travail... albeit 4000 years later.

Narrow focus.. which is on a significant part, but that doesn't chase away the implications I presented.

 

[Ken Rank]

In Satan's curse, directed towards the Serpent, God made a prophecy...

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

It states that the seeds (or descendants) of this Serpent will be at enmity with the seeds of Eve. Only her seed is redeemed. God makes the distinction. I don't understand the dividing between those which God will claim or reclaim in this case, but the curse is there, this "enmity" does full bloom in the end with some people receiving Yeshua as their savior and receiving redemption, and those who reject it. The wheat and the tares, look similar but are not of the same seed.

We have children of the devil today (or later in Scripture) that are not literally his seed but who are submitted to him over God and carry that term. Again, you are using only one possible definition for a word and then suggesting I am being narrow? If anything I am the one being a flaming liberally here.

EDIT - not laughing at you... laughing at my own liberal comment.

 

[visionary]

We have children of the devil today (or later in Scripture) that are not literally his seed but who are submitted to him over God and carry that term. Again, you are using only one possible definition for a word and then suggesting I am being narrow? If anything I am the one being a flaming liberally here.

EDIT - not laughing at you... laughing at my own liberal comment.

I know, don't disagree... just following a trail for which this thread was created for.

 

[visionary]

We have children of the devil today (or later in Scripture) that are not literally his seed but who are submitted to him over God and carry that term. Again, you are using only one possible definition for a word and then suggesting I am being narrow? If anything I am the one being a flaming liberally here.

EDIT - not laughing at you... laughing at my own liberal comment.

Members of the serpent seed would only be able to bruise Yeshua's heel in the process. ... Children of the devil, as you say.... were among the crowds which cried "crucify him"

 

[visionary]

...the members of the mixed multitude are the children of the
primordial serpent that seduced Chavah (Eve) by the tree of knowledge,
so the mixed multitude is indeed the impurity that the serpent injected
into Chavah. From this impurity, which is considered the mixed
multitude, Kayin (Cain) came forth and slew Hevel (Abel)...
- The Zohar, Volume 1, Beresheet A, Section 28.

 

[danny ski]

I find it puzzling that this is the subject of the Cain/Able conversation. The story of Cain and his brother is the cornerstone of our relationship with Gd. It's the first step in the evolution that will culminate with Moses and the Sinai Covenant. It establishes the ground rules for an imperfect beings to have an access to a perfect Being on the most personal level. It's one of the most important lessons on the nature of Gd and the abilities of man.

 

[Open Heart]

And the peshat (plain reading) of the text disagrees with it.

Gen 4.1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain,​

That plainly says Cain was Adam's offspring.

Good plain obvious reading.

 

[visionary]

One angel seeds the first Eve.. the second seeds Mary...

 

[Lulav]

...she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. (Gen 4:1)
she never said that she got the seed from Adam.

I want to add this... Apparently, when Eve first saw her baby, Cain, she may have assumed she had gotten him from somewhere else besides Adam otherwise why say it was from the "Lord".. According to the New Jerusalem Translation the verse translated from Hebrew little differently...

...I have gotten a man from an angel of the LORD.

At that time, there were two groups of evil and the good angels... Besides the laws of God forbid cross breeding..

I have heard some commentary on this that the reason she felt she had gotten him from the L-RD was because of the curse given in 3:15. She believed that the seed of the woman (her) would crush the seed of the serpent (who caused their downfall and expulsion from the Garden and from G-d). However I believe she misunderstood since this was the first child born there was no knowledge yet of this phenomena.

The Midrash Rabbah, Bereshith (Genesis) 24:6, trans. Rabbi Dr. H. Freedman and Maurice
Simon (London: The Soncino Press, 1961) stated that Eve got Cain from the serpent seed.

If one studies the book of Genesis and in particular the beginning of Genesis one can see the whole reason for the rest of the bible. In the Garden G-d placed two 'individuals' and I'm not speaking of Adam and Eve. We are told there were two 'trees' in the middle of the Garden, one would bring life and one would bring death. When G-d placed the man he had made into the garden he told him not to partake from the one tree, the one called the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

As someone had pointed out in this thread, the word in Hebrew for sexual encounter is 'yada'. The Hebrew word for 'Knowledge''s word's origin is 'yada'.

Serpent beguiled Eve Genesis 3:13. The word "beguile" means "wholly seduced." Seduced is a sexual intimate term.

Yes, I'm pretty sure this is accentuated from a verse in the NT but can't think of where right now.

Cain was said to be "of the wicked one". 1 John 3:12

7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.​

That 'work' began in the garden.

For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. ​

In Satan's curse, directed towards the Serpent, God made a prophecy...

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

It states that the seeds (or descendants) of this Serpent will be at enmity with the seeds of Eve. Only her seed is redeemed. God makes the distinction. I don't understand the dividing between those which God will claim or reclaim in this case, but the curse is there, this "enmity" does full bloom in the end with some people receiving Yeshua as their savior and receiving redemption, and those who reject it. The wheat and the tares, look similar but are not of the same seed.

Only the seed of the woman (all true mankind) can be redeemed if they are true in their generations. Those that are hybrid, from human women and (fallen) angels are not as they are an abomination of G-ds creation.

This has been the whole story of the bible from the beginning since that curse was pronounced.

If the Serpent stops the seed of the woman from coming, down to the DNA level even then his punishment will not come as he knows that G-d does not lie.

It is still going on today as Yeshua said he would not come until his people declare, 'Baruch atta B'shem Adonai', so that has been the evil one's agenda for the past 2000 years.

 

[Lulav]

One angel seeds the first Eve.. the second seeds Mary...

The Holy Spirit is not an angel or a created being.

 

[visionary]

It was the seeding aspect I was presenting. You are right the Holy Spirit is not an angel.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

First of all, I reject the whole idea of a serpent seed. This is a teaching whose roots are founded first in racism.

[BSecondly, Cain came first... so if he were the "serpents seeds" then Eve was defiled and then gave birth to the one who would be in the genealogy of Messiah?[/b]

Lastly, the Hebrew suggests they might have been twins. Genesis 4:1 has Cain being born, and in Genesis 4:2 it says, "then she bore again" and we get Abel. The word for "and she again" is yasaph which, when used as an adverb (and this is describing yalad, the next Hebrew word which means to give birth) means "to continue." So she gave birth to Cain and then continued and gave birth to Abel.

I believe Seth is the ancestor of Messiah, not Cain.

 

[Lulav]

It was the seeding aspect I was presenting. You are right the Holy Spirit is not an angel.

I understand, but I don't believe that it was the same way.

 

[Open Heart]

The Midrash Rabbah, Bereshith (Genesis) 24:6, trans. Rabbi Dr. H. Freedman and Maurice
Simon (London: The Soncino Press, 1961) stated that Eve got Cain from the serpent seed.

I thought you didn't think the Talmud was authoritative?

 

[visionary]

I thought you didn't think the Talmud was authoritative?

Using commentary is not declaring it is authoritative, just an example of another's opinion along the same lines.

 

[Ken Rank]

I believe Seth is the ancestor of Messiah, not Cain.

It doesn't matter... there is still no way to use the bible alone and turn Cain into a serpents seed. Adam knew Eve and she conceived... end of story.

 

[pinacled]

It doesn't matter... there is still no way to use the bible alone and turn Cain into a serpents seed. Adam knew Eve and she conceived... end of story.

There is more to the Living Soul than authority.
Imagine if you will the Adam was officiating the preisthood in gan eden, a Holy place of eternal dominion to the waters that feed twelve manner of trees.
So then when his help meet yet to be a wife comes to him with a another decree.
He ate of the strange fruit without knowledge of what a covenant is.

 

[Soyeong]

Were they born around the same time?

There could have been any number of children born between Cain and Seth, and Abel was one of them.