• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Cain and Abel

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Oct 30, 2017.

  1. Ygrene Imref

    Ygrene Imref Well-Known Member

    +1,055
    Other Religion
    Celibate
    And, it doesn't take a child to know that the bible characters had their fathers named - especially the first born males. So why is there not one place in the canon that named this important figure - the first murderer? Surely, we would want more than vaguity to substantiate that ADAM was the father of the first murderer.

    And, how does this reconcile with Christ when He says the father of a spiritually derelict lot was the Devil - the father of lies, and a murderer from the beginning? GOAT and SHEEP; there is even a motif to let you know despite missing information.

    Everyone else of note has their father named by name (not implication.)

    It explicitly tells us who Seth's father was, but not Cain. Cain in his own lineage has no naming of a Father. Even Christ's lineage was up to Seth, who was the son of Adam, who was the son of God.

    Why is Cain's father not listed anywhere by name? Because Cain is not the son of Adam, and the ecumenical authority couldn't have the laity or "middle management" know that there is a real spiritual assault on the human race - from seed to the end of the life.

    They also don't want people to know that there are lines of people who are NOT 100% human, as there is plenty of evidence of "gods" having relations with humans even beyond the apocrypha.

    One place where Cain's father is named by name will solve all of this. By name (e.g. Adam is the father if Cain/Cain, who is the son of Adam.)

    You can't say nothing can be added to the bible, while ignoring the fact that a canon is precisely an anthology of accepted additions and removals. This is especially the case when the clarity is in the very books removed from acceptance.

    The actual living Word of God is the One you can't add to, or take away from. The bible canon, apocrypha, and any other artifact of man is at best inspired by the Most High God. I would be careful making an idol of the paper book bible, when the real thing is literally alive.
     
  2. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    I did not disregard the verse---I'm the one that posted it, you only posted Hebrews 6:8. Neither verse has anything to do with the present discussion. The ground would yield thorns and thistles after the fall---and after the murder of Abel--the ground would no longer yield it's strength. Pretty plain. Why do you argue against the plainly stated word of God??
     
  3. Mercymessianicjudiasm

    Mercymessianicjudiasm Member

    179
    +20
    United States
    Messianic
    Single
    You do what you accuse me of. The ground was cursed PRIOR to the murder of Abel, the land was rejected by YHWH as Hebrews 6:8 states, as Cain offering was rejected (Genesis 4:5); ready to be burned. The land yielded thorns and thistles which meant that it did not yield its strength unto Adam and Cain, as Hebrews 6:7 says the land was blessed by the rain.
     
  4. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    Yes--it was cursed at the fall---it would now yield thistles and thorns. Hebrews has nothing to do with it.
    Hebrews states the end of thistles and thorns will be to be burned--and I also added that it also is restated in the parable of the wheat and tares. Tares and thistles and thorns are the same thing and a metaphor for sinners---burned in hell fire. Still has nothing to do with the very clear wording of Adam's sin brought about the thistles and thorns and Cain's sin brought about the weakness of the earth--it no longer yielded it's strength. Plain. There is absolutely no need to go on about this. As I said---All God had to say was that Cain would now be a vagabond--but He first added--henceforth the earth would no longer yield it's strength---why do you continue to disregard such a simple thing?? Thorns and thistles are not the same thing as not yielding it's strength. A highly prolific garden will also yield a lot of weeds. To not yield it's strength means that crops and even weeds would no longer be as prolific. Why is this such a problem for you??
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,138
    Messianic
    Excellent points
     
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,138
    Messianic
    Yep, weather being a very important factor in the "prolific" factor. That canopy in the Garden of Eden was gone, and all the blessings that went with it.
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others

    What is so ambiguous about ADAM KNEW EVE AND SHE CONEIVED AND BARE CAIN?? It doesn't get any clearer than that!!

    Gen_4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch:

    Is it ambiguous as to who the father of Enoch was??? You consider that an implication?!

    Where is it stated that anyone other than Adam was his father? If it is not stated, than it is you that is adding to the word of God. The word of God CLEARLY states it is Adam. It does not even hint, imply nor vaguely suggest any other. To believe anything else is to not believe in the living word of God as truth for it is the Dead Sea Scrolls that proved that the version of the OT that Jesus read is the same we have now and Jesus never said one single word that anyone other than Adam sired Cain and Abel and Seth. It is an attempt to destroy the word of God and place man's theories above His word which ends placing those theories above God--His word is who He is. When He speaks it is so. He spoke a world into existence---to add to those words is to take away from His power and to end up not knowing Him and if you do not know Him---He will not know you.
     
  8. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others

    Yes---but that canopy did not go until Noah. God cursed the ground at Adams fall---not the canopy. The weather was not a factor until the flood---that being the 3rd time that the earth paid a heavy price for the sins of man. It was thorns and thistles---then the earth not yielding its strength--then the flood.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  9. Ygrene Imref

    Ygrene Imref Well-Known Member

    +1,055
    Other Religion
    Celibate
    Christ's lineage reaches all the way to Adam. We know this, not by implication, but because these patriarchs were listed by name - so that we know exactly who it is. Cain - the [SCAPE]GOAT like his father - tried to name his children as the prophetic line of Adam that would bring about the Christ. So, it was important to give the names and sequence of patriarchy to vindicate one's lineage.

    Cain has no patriarchy. He stands alone by himself among all the people listed in the bible. There is not one mention of his father by name.

    Adam's Father is listed by Name - [The Most High] God. We have seen, "Adam, who is the son of God..." in the canon. There is no place in the canon where Cain's father is named - which is interesting for a canon considering Cain is the first murderer.

    His father's name isn't listed in the canon because Cain is not the son of Adam.

    Where does the canon list that, "Cain [was] the son of Adam" directly - or, where is it explicitly stated Cain, the son of Adam?
     
  10. Ygrene Imref

    Ygrene Imref Well-Known Member

    +1,055
    Other Religion
    Celibate
    What do you mean by canopy?
     
  11. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    It i named the very first time that Adam knew His wife and she conceived and bore Cain. Why you wish to ignore that and come up with an unbiblical statement that someone other than Adam was his father is beyond me, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. All that is asked is that you state where in the bible that it states that. What is vague, unsubstantiated, ambiguous and flat out not stated at all is that someone else is his father. Where does it explicitly state that someone else was his father?? The where does it explicitly state that Abel knew Eve and she conceived and bore Abel? Where is Abels' name in the genealogy? Who is the firstborn son of Adam?---you say it is not Cain---the bible does not state what you want for Abel.

    Gen_4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth:
    Who is the father of Seth???
    Gen_5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
    Luk_3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. No mention of Abel being his son.

    The genealogy does not include Cain nor Abel. The firstborn and inheritor was Cain, he lost that when he killed Abel, he was no longer in the genealogy. God expelled him from the family. Seth became the firstborn because Abel was dead. If Cain, had died--the firstborn inheritor would have been Abel, and that above genealogy would have had Abels', name, not Seths'.
    The genealogy of Christ is traced to David--the prophecies in the OT of a messiah was to come from King David. The Messiah promise was to the son of David.

    Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

    In Luke 3 the genealogy goes to Adam. And it goes from Seth to Adam. There is no mention of Abel--just as there is no mention of Cain---neither were able to be called firstborn inheritor anymore.

    Prophecies of Jesus Old Testament
    Scripture
    New Testament
    Fulfillment

    1 Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
    Galatians 4:4
    2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
    Luke 2:4-6
    3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23
    Luke 1:26-31
    4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3
    Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1
    Romans 9:5
    5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19
    Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
    6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
    7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33
    Hebrews 7:14
    8 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
    Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33
    Romans 1:3
    9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
    Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33
    Hebrews 1:8-12
    10 Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
    11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
    12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
    13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
    14 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8
    Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11
    John 7:5
    15 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
    16 Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
    17 Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
    18 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
    19 Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
    20 Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4
    Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
    21 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
    22 Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
    23 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6
    Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37
    Mark 11:7-11
    24 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
    25 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
    Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48
    Matthew 26:14-16
    26 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
    27 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
    28 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
    29 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
    30 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19
    Psalm 69:4 John 15:24-25
    31 Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
    Mark 15:27-28
    32 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
    John 19:28-30
    33 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16
    Zechariah 12:10 John 20:25-27
    34 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
    35 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34
    Matthew 27:35-36
    36 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46
    Psalm 34:20 John 19:33-36
    37 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
    38 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
    39 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
    40 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
    41 Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10
    Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7
    Acts 2:22-32
    42 Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19
    Luke 24:51
    43 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18
    Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19
    Matthew 22:44
    44 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8
    Not one prophecy said anything about Jesus being a son of Adam---that is understood as Adam is the first man. Nothing stated about a pure line of descent from Adam---only from David, and from Abraham. Luke traces it to Adam. Again---if Cain had died---the genealogy would have gone from Adam to Abel. If Cain had not murdered Abel----the genealogy would have read from Adam to Cain to Jesus and He still would have fulfilled all the prophecies pertaining to Him.
     
  12. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

    +591
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    God cursed Cain.
    When you till the ground, it will no longer yield to you its strength; you will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14 Today you have driven me away from the soil, and I shall be hidden from your face; I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and anyone who meets me may kill me.” 15 Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him. 16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

    Seems if it were the ground no one could till it, it wouldn't yield it's strength to anyone.
     
  13. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    It affected everyone---not just Cain. Just like when death passed to Adam and Eve---it passed to everyone, just like when it rained--it rained on everyone. Just like when the thorns and thistles came--they came to all, not just to Adam.
    Just like when Eve was told
    "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
    It came to all women.
    It came to all. Cain became a fugitive and vagabond. He build a city---he was driven from the land--from of the face of the earth--

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    ---That is exactly what happened. He doesn't say it could not be tilled--when it is tilled it will no longer yield it's strength.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  14. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

    +591
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    From this passage, that describes the punishment, how do you arrive to the conclusion that everyone is punished?

    When you till the ground, it will no longer yield to you its strength; you will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14 Today you have driven me away from the soil, and I shall be hidden from your face; I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and anyone who meets me may kill me.” 15 Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him. 16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
     
  15. Mercymessianicjudiasm

    Mercymessianicjudiasm Member

    179
    +20
    United States
    Messianic
    Single
    It is obvious that Cain was cursed. The ground would yield thorns and thistles to Adam.
     
  16. Ygrene Imref

    Ygrene Imref Well-Known Member

    +1,055
    Other Religion
    Celibate
    Abel was dead, and Seth was appointed. There was nothing to suggest Cain had died at the time of Seth's appointment - especially given the Mark of Cain.

    But, Seth's father was named by name, not only by implication - so that I we would know his name.

    Show me one place where the canon EXPLICITLY says that Cain is the son of Adam. Other than that, you are going by implication.

    Everyone else of merit has their father named by name.
     
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others

    OK---are you saying that everyone, after Adam and Eve sinned, does not die? Is everyone not affected by thorns and thistles? Is everyone not affected by the earth not giving her strength? Are not all women affected by the curse place on Eve to give children in pain? Are you not affected by any of the consequences of the sins committed by Adam and Eve? How you can even ask such a question if beyond me. Unless you happen to be still living in the garden of Eden where there is no death, no pain, no thorns and thistles no rain only dew to water the face of the earth----lucky you.
     
  18. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others

    Nobody said Cain was dead!!! Seth became the titular firstborn, the inheritor because Abel was dead and Cain had been exiled and no longer in the line of inheritance---he essentially was disinherited. That is why he is not in the genealogy---it goes from Seth to Adam. It's not a secret, it is not a hidden Jewish practice it is the patriarchal system. I said if Cain had not killed Abel, he would have retained that 1st place and would have been in the genealogy.
    Again--where does it state that anyone else fathered Cain? Name the book, chapter and verse--that would settle the question. Other than that --- you are totally and completely speculating!!

    Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
    I have gotten a man from the Lord---in the MTT: Genesis 4
    it is transliterated as:

    "and the human had known Hhawah his woman and she conceived and she brought forth Qayin, and she said, I purchased a man with YHWH ,"

    PURCHASE(Verb): Definition: To acquire ownership or occupation through an exchange. Hebrew: קנה q.n.h Edenics: coin - for purchasing AHLB: 1428-H(V) KJV Translations: get, gotten, possess, buy, purchase, possessor, buyer, keep Strong's: #7069
    PURCHASED: Hebrew: קנת qe-nat-masc. KJV Translations: n/a Strong's: [Found in names only]
    LIVESTOCK: Definition: Animals kept or raised for use or pleasure. What is purchased or possessed. Hebrew: מקנה miq-neh-masc. AHLB: 1428-H(h) KJV Translations: cattle, possession, flocks, substance, herd, purchase Strong's: #4735

    Can you please state the name of the person that you claim to be the father of Cain, that Eve would have said the she had possessed from God? And please present your verse where that information is obtained from.
     
  19. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

    +591
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    well no, you were saying that Cain's punishment effected everyone. This is what you said:

    It affected everyone---not just Cain. Just like when death passed to Adam and Eve---it passed to everyone, just like when it rained--it rained on everyone

    So I pointed out the passage that has God explaining the curses effects to Cain.

    When you till the ground, it will no longer yield to you its strength; you will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14 Today you have driven me away from the soil, and I shall be hidden from your face; I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and anyone who meets me may kill me.” 15 Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him. 16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,609
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others

    Yes--of course it was a curse to Cain---but it affected the whole of creation also. It most certainly did not affect just Cain. Are you still saying that the curses affect was to him only---that only when he tilled the ground it would not yield it's strength? The first curse was to Adam and Eve:

    Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    It was said to them---but it affected the whole of creation also. The mark was to Cain alone to protect him from getting killed. The ground was cursed for Cain had spilled his brothers blood on it.
    Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
    Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
     
Loading...