C. S. Lewis, a writer of pagan myths, magic and witchcraft?

[reddogs]

Since C.S. Lewis said he was a converted Christian, why did they he, along with his close 'fellow christian' friend J.R.R. Tolkien write stories that contained or exalted elements of magic, wizards and witchcraft synonymous with paganism or worse that are condemned in the Bible?
(Trouble in Narnia: The Occult Side of C.S. Lewis)

Here are a few interesting comments I came across...

"It's folly to predict the future, but being a fool, I'll say that maybe in 150 years it will be the Chronicles of Narnia that are the most remembered of Lewis's work.

In order to write to a post-Christian culture, Lewis used pre-Christian, pagan ideas.

C.S. Lewis's ideas about returning to a paganism before coming to Christian faith still apply today. He recognized that we live in a post-Christian world, and for him that was the most basic category when trying to understand present society. We talk about modernism and now postmodernism, but if Lewis was around I think he'd still be saying that the fact that we're post-Christian is more fundamental.

Contemporary people have no background at all in Christian faith. They need to be brought to paganism to prepare the way..." C.S. Lewis, the Sneaky Pagan

He was friends with another writer of books, J. R. Tolkien, who wrote stories of pagan myths and fantasy.
There is even a book on it, "J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis: A Legendary Friendship
A new book reveals how these two famous friends conspired to bring myth and legend?and Truth?to modern readers" and his website confirms it..From Atheism to Paganism to God - Official Site | CSLewis.com

"Many fans are aware that C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were close friends who had a great deal in common. Tolkien helped return Lewis to the Christianity of his youth, whereas Lewis encouraged Tolkien to expand his fictional writing; both taught at Oxford and were members of the same literary group, both were interested in literature, myth, and language, and both wrote fictional books which propagated basic Christian themes and principles.

At the same time, though, they also had serious disagreements--in particular, over the quality of Lewis' Narnia books--especially where the religious elements were concerned.

Although Lewis was very proud of his first Narnia book, The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, and it would spawn a massively successful series of children's books, Tolkien didn't think very highly of it. First, he thought that the Christian themes and messages were far too strong--he didn't approve of the way Lewis seemed to beat the reader over the head with such obvious symbols referring to and Jesus." https://www.learnreligions.com/c-s-lewis-and-j-r-r-tolkien-christia...

"Personally, I did not come across the writings of Lewis until I was in college, long after I had been reading the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. Indeed, though I had been reading Tolkien since I?d turned age ten, way back in 1977, I had no idea that he and Lewis were so close until taking a course on ?Philosophy, Science Fiction, and Fantasy? at the University of Notre Dame in the fall of 1988. There, in Professor Sayer?s class, we learned not only of the friendship of the two men but of their mutual desire to reform the world through the art of storytelling."C.S. Lewis: Man of Faith or Warmed-Over Pagan? ~ The Imaginative Conservative

They made up a circle of friends which had some curious interests..."Tolkien was the philologist and Anglo-Saxon scholar, Lewis the Christian apologist who wrote on medieval allegory before earning fame with a science fiction trilogy, wartime BBC broadcasts on Christian faith, and later ?The Screwtape Letters? and Narnia books. Owen Barfield loved English folk dance and wrote the influential ?Poetic Diction,? developing a theory of language that anticipated later developments in the study of consciousness, as well as what became known as New Age thought. The disarmingly fey Williams had no problems reconciling his Anglicanism with a belief in magic and the tarot, participating in esoteric rites such as the ?Ceremony of Consecration on the Threshold of Sacred Mystery.? https://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-ca-jc-philip-carol-zale...

It seems the fiction of C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien (and the circle of friends) can seen as something which can be taken in and be 'entertained' by Christians and pagans alike.
Lewis and Tolkien, 'Narnia' and 'Lord of the Rings'

 

[Aussie Pete]

Since C.S. Lewis said he was a converted Christian, why did they he, along with his close 'fellow christian' friend J.R.R. Tolkien write stories that contained or exalted elements of magic, wizards and witchcraft synonymous with paganism or worse that are condemned in the Bible?
(Trouble in Narnia: The Occult Side of C.S. Lewis)

Here are a few interesting comments I came across...

"It's folly to predict the future, but being a fool, I'll say that maybe in 150 years it will be the Chronicles of Narnia that are the most remembered of Lewis's work.

In order to write to a post-Christian culture, Lewis used pre-Christian, pagan ideas.

C.S. Lewis's ideas about returning to a paganism before coming to Christian faith still apply today. He recognized that we live in a post-Christian world, and for him that was the most basic category when trying to understand present society. We talk about modernism and now postmodernism, but if Lewis was around I think he'd still be saying that the fact that we're post-Christian is more fundamental.

Contemporary people have no background at all in Christian faith. They need to be brought to paganism to prepare the way..." C.S. Lewis, the Sneaky Pagan

He was friends with another writer of books, J. R. Tolkien, who wrote stories of pagan myths and fantasy.
There is even a book on it, "J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis: A Legendary Friendship
A new book reveals how these two famous friends conspired to bring myth and legend?and Truth?to modern readers" and his website confirms it..From Atheism to Paganism to God - Official Site | CSLewis.com

"Many fans are aware that C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were close friends who had a great deal in common. Tolkien helped return Lewis to the Christianity of his youth, whereas Lewis encouraged Tolkien to expand his fictional writing; both taught at Oxford and were members of the same literary group, both were interested in literature, myth, and language, and both wrote fictional books which propagated basic Christian themes and principles.

At the same time, though, they also had serious disagreements--in particular, over the quality of Lewis' Narnia books--especially where the religious elements were concerned.

Although Lewis was very proud of his first Narnia book, The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, and it would spawn a massively successful series of children's books, Tolkien didn't think very highly of it. First, he thought that the Christian themes and messages were far too strong--he didn't approve of the way Lewis seemed to beat the reader over the head with such obvious symbols referring to and Jesus." https://www.learnreligions.com/c-s-lewis-and-j-r-r-tolkien-christia...

"Personally, I did not come across the writings of Lewis until I was in college, long after I had been reading the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. Indeed, though I had been reading Tolkien since I?d turned age ten, way back in 1977, I had no idea that he and Lewis were so close until taking a course on ?Philosophy, Science Fiction, and Fantasy? at the University of Notre Dame in the fall of 1988. There, in Professor Sayer?s class, we learned not only of the friendship of the two men but of their mutual desire to reform the world through the art of storytelling."C.S. Lewis: Man of Faith or Warmed-Over Pagan? ~ The Imaginative Conservative

They made up a circle of friends which had some curious interests..."Tolkien was the philologist and Anglo-Saxon scholar, Lewis the Christian apologist who wrote on medieval allegory before earning fame with a science fiction trilogy, wartime BBC broadcasts on Christian faith, and later ?The Screwtape Letters? and Narnia books. Owen Barfield loved English folk dance and wrote the influential ?Poetic Diction,? developing a theory of language that anticipated later developments in the study of consciousness, as well as what became known as New Age thought. The disarmingly fey Williams had no problems reconciling his Anglicanism with a belief in magic and the tarot, participating in esoteric rites such as the ?Ceremony of Consecration on the Threshold of Sacred Mystery.? https://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-ca-jc-philip-carol-zale...

It seems the fiction of C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien (and the circle of friends) can seen as something which can be taken in and be 'entertained' by Christians and pagans alike.
Lewis and Tolkien, 'Narnia' and 'Lord of the Rings'

I had occult problems before I was saved. I read a lot of Dennis Wheatley books. I read Tolkien after I was saved. It is occult. Christians can be most ignorant of spiritual matters. I'm English by birth. It was quite usual for supposed Christians to be also steeped in occult and superstition. It is entirely wrong, but lack of spiritual knowledge is the problem.

 

[archer75]

What are the "occult" or "pagan" elements in Tolkien?

 

[Aussie Pete]

What are the "occult" or "pagan" elements in Tolkien?

Have you read "Lord of the Rings"? Occult through and through.

 

[archer75]

Have you read "Lord of the Rings"? Occult through and through.

I have read it more than once and am not sure what you are talking about. Could you give an example? I don't mean to be unpleasant. Maybe I don't understand how you are using that word?

 

[Gary K]

I have read it more than once and am not sure what you are talking about. Could you give an example? I don't mean to be unpleasant. Maybe I don't understand how you are using that word?

I read the Tolkien books years ago. I have to agree that they are full occult symbology and meaning.

Show me from that series where God is mentioned, or honored. Show me where God is the source of power that upholds that which is represented as the good. Gandalf is shown as a wizard. What does the Bible say about wizards? Does it say anything positive about them? Gandalf is also represented as gaining levels of personal power. Where does the Bible say that human beings gain personal powers like that? The Bible says any power exercised through a human being that is a follower of God is the power of God, not the individual's personal power. Read Acts chapter 8 and see where the power to do miracles comes from and what Paul told Simon the sorcerer. He believed it was a personal power he could control, just like Gandalf in the LOR series. Same with the elfs. In the stories they had supernatural powers and were eternal beings in their own right. Once again that is not even close to being Biblical. Eternal life belongs only to God and to whom He grants it

The amount of spiritualism in those books is incredible, and spiritualism is the work of the devil. The Bible never associates it with God or His people.

 

[archer75]

Show me from that series where God is mentioned, or honored. Show me where God is the source of power that upholds that which is represented as the good. Gandalf is shown as a wizard. What does the Bible say about wizards? Does it say anything positive about them? Gandalf is also represented as gaining levels of personal power. Where does the Bible say that human beings gain personal powers like that? The Bible says any power exercised through a human being that is a follower of God is the power of God, not the individual's personal power. Read Acts chapter 8 and see where the power to do miracles comes from and what Paul told Simon the sorcerer. He believed it was a personal power he could control, just like Gandalf in the LOR series. Same with the elfs. In the stories they had supernatural powers and were eternal beings in their own right. Once again that is not even close to being Biblical. Eternal life belongs only to God and to whom He grants it

The amount of spiritualism in those books is incredible, and spiritualism is the work of the devil. The Bible never associates it with God or His people.

Hi, thank you for posting. I don't want to sound combative, but I do want to mention a few ways in which I think you are not operating with a complete set of information about Tolkien's novel.

So, first of all, this is a work of fiction. It is not a retelling of any part of the Bible.

It is, however, basically a Christian work and is consistent with Christian faith.

Some responses to what I have bolded above:

Show me where God is the source of power that upholds that which is represented as the good. Okay. The book clearly shows Gandalf as the main "planner" for the side that is represented as the good. Right? When he crowns Aragorn, he says "Now come the days of the King, and may they be blessed while the thrones of the Valar endure!"

Now, who are the Valar? We don't see much about them. But in Appendix A (which is part of the novel), we read that when a king of men who wanted to "take" eternal life for himself made war on the Valar, they "laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Numenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea..."

That is, we see that Gandalf in some way honors the Valar. And the Valar themselves, when men attack them, lay down their (delegated) authority and call upon the One - that is, God, as God is called here. The "highest authority."

The Valar are depicted as stewards of the world, as is Gandalf. But they are not the creators of all existence or the final authority.

So, in the end, although the "small" characters see Gandalf as a person who can do some unusual things (although we don't see a ton of that in the book, there is a bit), the book shows that Gandalf answers to those who sent him as they sent the other "wizards" - as "messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him" (Appendix B) An angel, of course, is a messenger of God. Gandalf is fictionalized angel, a kind of prophet-angel, who does not act on his own authority but on the authority delegated to him by the Valar, who themselves have authority delegated to them by the One (the name, in the novel, used the creator whom you and I know as God). So that is also my reply to The Bible says any power exercised through a human being that is a follower of God is the power of God, not the individual's personal power. --Yes, and indeed, Gandalf's power and authority are from God, not from himself or some occult ritual.

The elves, or some elves, have abilities that to you and me are magical, but these abilities are natural to them. They have greater gifts of making things, singing, and so on, because they are a fictional race of human-like creatures and that is what the author decided. They are, to our eyes, extra good t making armor, at writing songs, etc. A very few Elves do appear to have skills that are clearly beyond human powers, such as Galadriel's "mirror." But this is addressed even in the book itself:

"For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean, and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy." (Galadriel says this.)

That is, an elf-character recognizes that to "us" (or to hobbits) this looks like magic. But it is merely an ability of hers, a personal ability, just as some humans are stronger than others, but being a very strong human does not mean you trafficked with demons to get that way. She clearly distinguishes what she does from the works of Sauron (Satan, more or less).

And the Elves are certainly not eternal beings in their own right. It is true that they do not die of old age as we do, only of accidents or being killed. But the Elves are "bound to the world" and exist only as long as it does, which is not forever. Men (humans) are said to have a special "gift" from God, that when we die we go "beyond the circles of the world." Not even the Elves or the Valar know what happens then.

I.e. -- these beings are blessed inasmuch as they are oriented to the authority that comes from God, but they are not the "ultimate" stewards of creation, as humans are. And humans are the ones who live "beyond the world" - i.e. have immortal souls, etc.

So, I still am not sure what you mean by spiritualism, or what spiritualism you find in the novel. But I have at least replied to some of what you wrote above. Happy to discuss it more. Take care.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I have read it more than once and am not sure what you are talking about. Could you give an example? I don't mean to be unpleasant. Maybe I don't understand how you are using that word?

Wizardry for a start. One of the key characters is Gandalf. I read the book 35 years ago, so the details are a bit vague. Power in rings? Occult.
The plot is the same as virtually every adventure style novel. Good v evil, good wins out. No mention of God, Lord Jesus, or the real spiritual warfare that rages as we read this. "Good and Evil" are the attributes of the Tree of Knowledge in Eden. The fruit of that tree is spiritually deadly. Tolkien is relatively harmless, but people are easily seduced by the fantasy world it portrays. It can lead people into more overt occult stuff like Harry Potter.

Hi, thank you for posting. I don't want to sound combative, but I do want to mention a few ways in which I think you are not operating with a complete set of information about Tolkien's novel.

So, first of all, this is a work of fiction. It is not a retelling of any part of the Bible.

It is, however, basically a Christian work and is consistent with Christian faith.

Some responses to what I have bolded above:

Show me where God is the source of power that upholds that which is represented as the good. Okay. The book clearly shows Gandalf as the main "planner" for the side that is represented as the good. Right? When he crowns Aragorn, he says "Now come the days of the King, and may they be blessed while the thrones of the Valar endure!"

Now, who are the Valar? We don't see much about them. But in Appendix A (which is part of the novel), we read that when a king of men who wanted to "take" eternal life for himself made war on the Valar, they "laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Numenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea..."

That is, we see that Gandalf in some way honors the Valar. And the Valar themselves, when men attack them, lay down their (delegated) authority and call upon the One - that is, God, as God is called here. The "highest authority."

The Valar are depicted as stewards of the world, as is Gandalf. But they are not the creators of all existence or the final authority.

So, in the end, although the "small" characters see Gandalf as a person who can do some unusual things (although we don't see a ton of that in the book, there is a bit), the book shows that Gandalf answers to those who sent him as they sent the other "wizards" - as "messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him" (Appendix B) An angel, of course, is a messenger of God. Gandalf is fictionalized angel, a kind of prophet-angel, who does not act on his own authority but on the authority delegated to him by the Valar, who themselves have authority delegated to them by the One (the name, in the novel, used the creator whom you and I know as God). So that is also my reply to The Bible says any power exercised through a human being that is a follower of God is the power of God, not the individual's personal power. --Yes, and indeed, Gandalf's power and authority are from God, not from himself or some occult ritual.

The elves, or some elves, have abilities that to you and me are magical, but these abilities are natural to them. They have greater gifts of making things, singing, and so on, because they are a fictional race of human-like creatures and that is what the author decided. They are, to our eyes, extra good t making armor, at writing songs, etc. A very few Elves do appear to have skills that are clearly beyond human powers, such as Galadriel's "mirror." But this is addressed even in the book itself:

"For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean, and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy." (Galadriel says this.)

That is, an elf-character recognizes that to "us" (or to hobbits) this looks like magic. But it is merely an ability of hers, a personal ability, just as some humans are stronger than others, but being a very strong human does not mean you trafficked with demons to get that way. She clearly distinguishes what she does from the works of Sauron (Satan, more or less).

And the Elves are certainly not eternal beings in their own right. It is true that they do not die of old age as we do, only of accidents or being killed. But the Elves are "bound to the world" and exist only as long as it does, which is not forever. Men (humans) are said to have a special "gift" from God, that when we die we go "beyond the circles of the world." Not even the Elves or the Valar know what happens then.

I.e. -- these beings are blessed inasmuch as they are oriented to the authority that comes from God, but they are not the "ultimate" stewards of creation, as humans are. And humans are the ones who live "beyond the world" - i.e. have immortal souls, etc.

So, I still am not sure what you mean by spiritualism, or what spiritualism you find in the novel. But I have at least replied to some of what you wrote above. Happy to discuss it more. Take care.

The Bible says any power exercised through a human being that is a follower of God is the power of God, not the individual's personal power.

Not true. Christians can and have inadvertently taken on a demonic counterfeit of the Holy Spirit. It is a great deception, enabled by a false understanding of "supernatural" v spiritual. There is so much spiritual ignorance that many Christians accept any "sign" or "wonder" as being of God. The last major manifestation of this was about 25 years ago (in the Western world, anyway). It was known as the Toronto Blessing. It was satanic through and through. We spent about a year investigating the phenomenon. We did not arrive at our conclusions lightly.

 

[archer75]

Wizardry for a start. One of the key characters is Gandalf. I read the book 35 years ago, so the details are a bit vague. Power in rings? Occult.
The plot is the same as virtually every adventure style novel. Good v evil, good wins out. No mention of God, Lord Jesus, or the real spiritual warfare that rages as we read this. "Good and Evil" are the attributes of the Tree of Knowledge in Eden. The fruit of that tree is spiritually deadly. Tolkien is relatively harmless, but people are easily seduced by the fantasy world it portrays. It can lead people into more overt occult stuff like Harry Potter.


Not true. Christians can and have inadvertently taken on a demonic counterfeit of the Holy Spirit. It is a great deception, enabled by a false understanding of "supernatural" v spiritual. There is so much spiritual ignorance that many Christians accept any "sign" or "wonder" as being of God. The last major manifestation of this was about 25 years ago (in the Western world, anyway). It was known as the Toronto Blessing. It was satanic through and through. We spent about a year investigating the phenomenon. We did not arrive at our conclusions lightly.

The bold text you quoted was not my statement. I was responding.

Good does not "win" by force or magical power. Good "wins" by renouncing power, or at least trying to. Does that sound pagan? And do you have any response to my points about the content of the book?

 

[Gary K]

Wizardry for a start. One of the key characters is Gandalf. I read the book 35 years ago, so the details are a bit vague. Power in rings? Occult.
The plot is the same as virtually every adventure style novel. Good v evil, good wins out. No mention of God, Lord Jesus, or the real spiritual warfare that rages as we read this. "Good and Evil" are the attributes of the Tree of Knowledge in Eden. The fruit of that tree is spiritually deadly. Tolkien is relatively harmless, but people are easily seduced by the fantasy world it portrays. It can lead people into more overt occult stuff like Harry Potter.


Not true. Christians can and have inadvertently taken on a demonic counterfeit of the Holy Spirit. It is a great deception, enabled by a false understanding of "supernatural" v spiritual. There is so much spiritual ignorance that many Christians accept any "sign" or "wonder" as being of God. The last major manifestation of this was about 25 years ago (in the Western world, anyway). It was known as the Toronto Blessing. It was satanic through and through. We spent about a year investigating the phenomenon. We did not arrive at our conclusions lightly.

You were responding to me in your second paragraph. I said, "followers of God, not "professed followers of God". There is a big difference between the two. Anyone can be a professed follower, but only those who obey God and walk in the Spirit are actually the followers of God.

Any power that the disciples/apostles displayed was the power of the Holy Spirit that used them to accomplish the purposes of God. They did not use the Holy Spirit to do what they determined the Holy Spirit's power should accomplish. It's the difference between Balaam and Elijah. One was motivated by self and what riches he could gain for himself. The other was a true follower of God. Elijah was motivated to honor God in all that he did. He turned people back to God. Balaam worked to separate people from God.

 

[Gary K]

Hi, thank you for posting. I don't want to sound combative, but I do want to mention a few ways in which I think you are not operating with a complete set of information about Tolkien's novel.

So, first of all, this is a work of fiction. It is not a retelling of any part of the Bible.

It is, however, basically a Christian work and is consistent with Christian faith.

Some responses to what I have bolded above:

Show me where God is the source of power that upholds that which is represented as the good. Okay. The book clearly shows Gandalf as the main "planner" for the side that is represented as the good. Right? When he crowns Aragorn, he says "Now come the days of the King, and may they be blessed while the thrones of the Valar endure!"

Now, who are the Valar? We don't see much about them. But in Appendix A (which is part of the novel), we read that when a king of men who wanted to "take" eternal life for himself made war on the Valar, they "laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Numenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea..."

That is, we see that Gandalf in some way honors the Valar. And the Valar themselves, when men attack them, lay down their (delegated) authority and call upon the One - that is, God, as God is called here. The "highest authority."

The Valar are depicted as stewards of the world, as is Gandalf. But they are not the creators of all existence or the final authority.

So, in the end, although the "small" characters see Gandalf as a person who can do some unusual things (although we don't see a ton of that in the book, there is a bit), the book shows that Gandalf answers to those who sent him as they sent the other "wizards" - as "messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him" (Appendix B) An angel, of course, is a messenger of God. Gandalf is fictionalized angel, a kind of prophet-angel, who does not act on his own authority but on the authority delegated to him by the Valar, who themselves have authority delegated to them by the One (the name, in the novel, used the creator whom you and I know as God). So that is also my reply to The Bible says any power exercised through a human being that is a follower of God is the power of God, not the individual's personal power. --Yes, and indeed, Gandalf's power and authority are from God, not from himself or some occult ritual.

The elves, or some elves, have abilities that to you and me are magical, but these abilities are natural to them. They have greater gifts of making things, singing, and so on, because they are a fictional race of human-like creatures and that is what the author decided. They are, to our eyes, extra good t making armor, at writing songs, etc. A very few Elves do appear to have skills that are clearly beyond human powers, such as Galadriel's "mirror." But this is addressed even in the book itself:

"For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean, and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy." (Galadriel says this.)

That is, an elf-character recognizes that to "us" (or to hobbits) this looks like magic. But it is merely an ability of hers, a personal ability, just as some humans are stronger than others, but being a very strong human does not mean you trafficked with demons to get that way. She clearly distinguishes what she does from the works of Sauron (Satan, more or less).

And the Elves are certainly not eternal beings in their own right. It is true that they do not die of old age as we do, only of accidents or being killed. But the Elves are "bound to the world" and exist only as long as it does, which is not forever. Men (humans) are said to have a special "gift" from God, that when we die we go "beyond the circles of the world." Not even the Elves or the Valar know what happens then.

I.e. -- these beings are blessed inasmuch as they are oriented to the authority that comes from God, but they are not the "ultimate" stewards of creation, as humans are. And humans are the ones who live "beyond the world" - i.e. have immortal souls, etc.

So, I still am not sure what you mean by spiritualism, or what spiritualism you find in the novel. But I have at least replied to some of what you wrote above. Happy to discuss it more. Take care.

It's pretty apparent that we are miles away from each other on this subject. I cannot agree with you on what you have said. God is not given the glory in the LOR series. Men are given the glory and give each other the glory. As Aussie Pete said, objects do not hold powers. The ring in the story and powers it gave to Gollum and Frodo Baggins is pure spiritualism. So is the power of Sauron, Gandalf, the elves, the walking/talking trees, etc.... These characters introduce pantheism and spiritualism in what most modern readers will see as an innocent setting.

Just because the story is in novel form doesn't mean it wasn't meant to teach. Many novels do that. They teach political ideologies, spiritual concepts, satanic concepts, etc.... Ever read the Left Behind series of novels? They teach spiritual ideas. Ever read the novel Philip Dru: Administrator? It was written by Edward House the closest advisor that Woodrow Wilson had. It teaches pure socialism. Many novels are like that. Historical novels teach the facts of history using a fictional character who interacts with real historical figures. C. S. Lewis' Tales of Narnia teaches spiritualistic/pantheistic ideas in a fictional setting. So does the LOR trilogy.

 

[archer75]

It's pretty apparent that we are miles away from each other on this subject. I cannot agree with you on what you have said. God is not given the glory in the LOR series. Men are given the glory and give each other the glory. As Aussie Pete said, objects do not hold powers. The ring in the story and powers it gave to Gollum and Frodo Baggins is pure spiritualism. So is the power of Sauron, Gandalf, the elves, the walking/talking trees, etc.... These characters introduce pantheism and spiritualism in what most modern readers will see as an innocent setting.

Just because the story is in novel form doesn't mean it wasn't meant to teach. Many novels do that. They teach political ideologies, spiritual concepts, satanic concepts, etc.... Ever read the Left Behind series of novels? They teach spiritual ideas. Ever read the novel Philip Dru: Administrator? It was written by Edward House the closest advisor that Woodrow Wilson had. It teaches pure socialism. Many novels are like that. Historical novels teach the facts of history using a fictional character who interacts with real historical figures. C. S. Lewis' Tales of Narnia teaches spiritualistic/pantheistic ideas in a fictional setting. So does the LOR trilogy.

I guess we are indeed far apart.

But isn't spiritualism the belief that one can receive messages from the spirits of the dead? What does that have to do with a fictional ring that tempts one?

Also, again I do not mean to be combative, but I notice that you did not actually reply to where I showed that all authority in LOTR is in fact derived from God (although certainly it is not in the forefront of the plot, no).

And indeed, objects do not hold powers. But our feelings about objects can tempt us. Phones, inappropriate contentography, internet...etc. Drugs, alcohol. Why something like this cannot be represented as a ring that is a plot device, I cannot understand.

What "powers" would you say the Ring gave to Frodo or Gollum? Gollum was obsessed with using the ring to eat fish more than once a day. That was the big dream of his deranged mind.

 

[archer75]

Further, I don't care for the Narnia books, and Tolkien disliked them. So, it might be nice not to lump them together...

 

[archer75]

Further...one other remark, if I may.

The ring's amazing power is to turn one invisible. A common device in tales. But we learn early on that it does this by shunting one partly into a kind of spirit realm in which one could get caught permanently by using the ring a lot.

Those characters (the nazgul, ring-wraiths) who succumbed to the temptations of similar rings are presented as definitely evil.

So this would seem to be an anti-spiritualist stance, if anything.

 

[Gary K]

LOTR combines paganism and some Christian ideas. Therefore it is not Christian. You cannot mix paganism and Christianity and still have Christianity. Just like a person can't mix the devil's ideas, which is what paganism is, and God's ideas, which is what Christianity is, and still call the result Christianity. It isn't. Truth plus a lie is not truth. It is a lie.

Tolkien knowing mixed Celtic and Norse mythology, which are pagan religions, with his fascination with Roman Catholicism and fairy tales in the LOTR books. That is a mixture of pantheism and spiritualism with some Christianity mixed in. That is not Christian. It's more pagan than Christian.

The following quote comes from this article: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings

The Lord of the Rings began as a personal exploration by Tolkien of his interests in philology, religion (particularly Roman Catholicism); fairy tales, and Norse and Celtic mythology. Tolkien detailed his creation to an astounding extent; he created a complete mythology for his realm of Middle-earth, including genealogies of characters, languages, runes, calendars and histories. Some of this supplementary material is detailed in the appendices to The Lord of the Rings, and the mythological history was woven into a large, biblically-styled volume entitled The Silmarillion.

Now, if you want to call that mixture Christian that's up to you but to me it is more pagan than Christian. A person cannot mix God's truth with pagan ideas and still present God's truth. It's impossible for truth is God's ideas, and God's ideas alone. The devil's ideas lead away from God. God's ideas lead to Him.

 

[archer75]

LOTR combines paganism and some Christian ideas. Therefore it is not Christian. You cannot mix paganism and Christianity and still have Christianity. Just like a person can't mix the devil's ideas, which is what paganism is, and God's ideas, which is what Christianity is, and still call the result Christianity. It isn't. Truth plus a lie is not truth. It is a lie.

Tolkien knowing mixed Celtic and Norse mythology, which are pagan religions, with his fascination with Roman Catholicism and fairy tales in the LOTR books. That is a mixture of pantheism and spiritualism with some Christianity mixed in. That is not Christian. It's more pagan than Christian.

The following quote comes from this article: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings


Now, if you want to call that mixture Christian that's up to you but to me it is more pagan than Christian. A person cannot mix God's truth with pagan ideas and still present God's truth. It's impossible for truth is God's ideas, and God's ideas alone. The devil's ideas lead away from God. God's ideas lead to Him.

I guess I am not able to engage with you very well about this, because to me, a book can only be judged by looking at what is in the book. It seems you are more comfortable in dealing with abstractions about the book (and I mean this as no insult).

It is widely (though not universally) believed in Christianity that there are things in myth and legend that are precursors or shadows of the Truth of Christianity.

 

[Gary K]

I guess I am not able to engage with you very well about this, because to me, a book can only be judged by looking at what is in the book. It seems you are more comfortable in dealing with abstractions about the book (and I mean this as no insult).

It is widely (though not universally) believed in Christianity that there are things in myth and legend that are precursors or shadows of the Truth of Christianity.

I'm not taking your comments as an insult. We simply disagree and I've never thought someone disagreeing with me was an insult as I have never thought my disagreeing with someone else was meant as an insult to them. It's about the concepts and ideas, not personalities.

Many things that are widely believed are not true. To point to popularity of a belief as an argument for its veracity is a logical fallacy for the number of people who will believe something is irrelevant to whether that something is true or not. Look at how many people will vote for a politician on what he says. They will believe his words over his actions that prove he's lying as his words and his actions do not agree. The popularity of what he says has nothing to do with his veracity.

What is in the book is a mixture of paganism and Christianity. The web page I quoted made that very clear. That is no abstraction as it points out the concepts that Tolkien put into the book. Paganism and Christianity do not mix as there is no "precursor" to Christianity in the concepts the devil espouses. He is the father of lies and his subtlety in disseminating his lies is far beyond what human con artists can achieve. Our only safe guide is the Bible, not a mixture of the Bible and paganism.

 

[archer75]

I'm not taking your comments as an insult. We simply disagree and I've never thought someone disagreeing with me was an insult as I have never thought my disagreeing with someone else was meant as an insult to them. It's about the concepts and ideas, not personalities.

Many things that are widely believed are not true. To point to popularity of a belief as an argument for its veracity is a logical fallacy for the number of people who will believe something is irrelevant to whether that something is true or not. Look at how many people will vote for a politician on what he says. They will believe his words over his actions that prove he's lying as his words and his actions do not agree. The popularity of what he says has nothing to do with his veracity.

What is in the book is a mixture of paganism and Christianity. The web page I quoted made that very clear. That is no abstraction as it points out the concepts that Tolkien put into the book. Paganism and Christianity do not mix as there is no "precursor" to Christianity in the concepts the devil espouses. He is the father of lies and his subtlety in disseminating his lies is far beyond what human con artists can achieve. Our only safe guide is the Bible, not a mixture of the Bible and paganism.

I guess there's no argument for that, then. Although I still do take issue with using a summary on a website as your guide, but certainly it is true there are elements borrowed from non-Christian stories.

 

[Gary K]

I guess there's no argument for that, then. Although I still do take issue with using a summary on a website as your guide, but certainly it is true there are elements borrowed from non-Christian stories.

The quote from the website was for your benefit. I didn't use it as a guide at all. I recognized the pagan symbology prior to ever seeing that web page as I found that web page only minutes before I posted the quote and the link. I just wanted something to show you that even non-Christian sources recognize that Tolkien used pagan ideas in the writing of the his trilogy.

The LOR trilogy is quite a feat of literature. There is no doubt about that. However, it's like a lot of other authors and reading material. It's a mixture of good and bad ideas. The way I see things the way to recognize error is to study truth, and the only book I know of that is all truth is the Bible. Thus studying and understanding it reveals error.

Here is more on what Tolkien used as background material for LORs. He used the pagan religious myths of Norse and Germanic origin along with the Celtic legends. Tolkien Mythology

 

[archer75]

The quote from the website was for your benefit. I didn't use it as a guide at all. I recognized the pagan symbology prior to ever seeing that web page as I found that web page only minutes before I posted the quote and the link. I just wanted something to show you that even non-Christian sources recognize that Tolkien used pagan ideas in the writing of the his trilogy.

The LOR trilogy is quite a feat of literature. There is no doubt about that. However, it's like a lot of other authors and reading material. It's a mixture of good and bad ideas. The way I see things the way to recognize error is to study truth, and the only book I know of that is all truth is the Bible. Thus studying and understanding it reveals error.

Here is more on what Tolkien used as background material for LORs. He used the pagan religious myths of Norse and Germanic origin along with the Celtic legends. Tolkien Mythology

I'm reasonably familiar with the sources, or at least the fact of the sources.

I just don't think that that material is somehow poisoned from its non-Christian origin. The Cross, or at least a cross (+), was widely used before it had any meaning for Christians, and that's ok with most Christians I have ever met. The language we are writing these posts in is full of vocabulary from ancient pagan languages. English itself was a language of pagan people's early on and into the written period. And yet, it's widely used in evangelism and worship.

So do you disapprove of the study of all written works that are not the Bible?