By two or three witnesses?

[hislegacy]

I’m not Catholic, I don’t adhere to Apostolic Succession.

you might want to debate in the Catholic forum.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

What is the biblical support for apostolic succession?

Matt. 10:1,40 – Jesus declares to His apostles, “he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me.”

Matt. 16:19; 18:18
Luke 9:1; 10:19
Luke 10:16
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION - Scripture Catholic
Biblical Arguments and Evidences for Apostolic Succession
Apostolic Succession in the Bible

"Scriptural references to Apostolic Authority
No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Acts 5:13 (Note: this shows that the early Christians had a reverence for them)


We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. Acts 15:24


As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. Acts 16:4


For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God. 2 Corinthians 2:17 (Note: this shows that the office they hold is more then self appointed authority).


having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone Eph. 2:20 (Note: the word founation is used to describe "the apostles and prophets", not just St. Peter)


Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. Acts 20:28 (Note: this is a clear testimony that the Holy Spirit appointed the Twelve to be "overseers" and "shepherds of the church")


As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. John 17:18 (Note: the Bible compares the ministry of Jesus to that of the Twelve)"
Apostolic succession - OrthodoxWiki

Apostolic Succession

Philippians 1:1-2
Paul and Timothy, true servants of Jesus Christ, to the bishops, deacons and all true Christians at Philippi, grace and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ the Lord!

1 Timothy 3:1-7
The sort of men to bear office: bishops
It is quite true to say that a man who sets his heart on holding office has laudable ambition. Well, for the office of a bishop a man must be of blameless reputation, he must be married to one wife only, and be a man of self-control and discretion. He must be a man of disciplined life;

Acts 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Apostolic Succession In The Church – Our Catholic Faith

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The earliest church patriarchs, such as Origen, Pliney and Trajan always pointed to Cannon.

While the didache is attributed to this time period, it is more an instruction manual not scripture. Because of that, it holds no authority other than what man places in it.

It is true that all the Church Fathers appeals to Scripture, but related to Church Discipline the authority of the Bishops and other Church Leaders were in charge.

Origen also, quoted books you do not believe to be Scriptures:

"5. But that we may believe in the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, I ask of you, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist. In the book of the Shepherd also, in the first commandment, he speaks as follows: First of all believe that there is one God who created and arranged all things, and made all things to come into existence, and out of a state of nothingness. Perhaps also the expression in the Psalms has reference to this: He spoke, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created. For the words, He spoke, and they were made, appear to show that the substance of those things which exist is meant; while the others, He commanded, and they were created, seem spoken of the qualities by which the substance itself has been moulded."
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

Origen appeals to those who have apostolic authority by succession:

"He has but just now found his way to the catholic fold to get healing and safety; you have a rank among the very shepherds of that fold. But we would not that a sheep which comes to the Lord's flock for shelter from error, should be healed of his sores in such a way, as first to infect and destroy the shepherd by his contagious presence.

Chapter 7.— To Think the Soul Corporeal an Error.
But if you say to me, He has not taught me this; nor have I by any means given my assent to this erroneous opinion of his, however much I was enchanted by the sweetness of his eloquent and elegant discourse; then I earnestly thank God. Still I cannot help asking, why, even with kisses, as the report goes, you expressed your gratitude to him for having taught you what you were ignorant of, previous to hearing his discussion. Now if it be a false report which makes you to have done and said so much, then I beg you to be kind enough to give me this assurance, that the idle rumour may be stopped by your own written authority. If, however, it is true that you bestowed your thanks with such humility upon this man, I should rejoice, indeed, if he has not taught you to believe the opinion which I have already pointed out as a detestable one, and to be carefully avoided as such. Nor shall I find fault [IV.] if your humble thanks to your instructor were further earned by your having acquired from discussions with him some other true and useful knowledge. But may I ask you what it is? Is it that the soul is not spirit, but body? Well, I really do not think ignorance on such a point is any great injury to Christian learning; and if you indulge in more subtle disputes about the different kinds of bodily substance, I think the information you obtain is more difficult than serviceable. If, however, the Lord will that I should write to this young man himself, as I desire to do, then perhaps your loving self will know to what extent you are not indebted to him for your instruction; although you rejoice in what you have learned from him. And now I request you not to feel annoyance in writing me an answer; so that what is clearly useful and pertinent to our indispensable faith may not by any chance turn out to be something different."
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Soul and its Origin, Book II (Augustine)

"Now this is quite a novel idea, and foreign to the Church's discipline and the rule of truth: and yet, when daring to propound it in his books, he does not modestly say, I rather think; he does not say, I suppose; he does not say, I am of opinion; nor does he say, I at least would suggest, or mention — but he says, I give it as my decision; so that, should we be (as might be likely) offended by the novelty or the perverseness of his opinion, we might be overawed by the authority of his judicial determination. It is your own concern, my brother, how to be able to bear him as your instructor in these views. Catholic priests, however, of right feeling (and among them you ought to take your place) could never keep quiet — God forbid it — and hear this man pronounce his decisions, when they would wish him rather to recover his senses, and be sorry both for having entertained such opinions, and for having gone so far as to commit them to writing, and chastise himself with the most wholesome discipline of repentance. Now it is, says he; on this example of the Maccabees who fell in battle that I ground the necessity of doing this. When they offered stealthily some interdicted sacrifices, and after they had fallen in the battle, we find, says he, that this remedial measure was at once resorted to by the priests —sacrifices were offered up to liberate their souls, which had been bound by the guilt of their forbidden conduct. "
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Soul and its Origin, Book II (Augustine)

Origen appeals to the Pope and Councils:

"Chapter 17.— Disobedient Compassion and Compassionate Disobedience Reprobated. Martyrdom in Lieu of Baptism.
The new-fangled Pelagian heretics have been most justly condemned by the authority of catholic councils and of the Apostolic See, on the ground of their having dared to give to unbaptized infants a place of rest and salvation, even apart from the kingdom of heaven."
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Soul and its Origin, Book II (Augustine)

Point is if one takes the time to search thought Origen, Pliney and Trajan --- they will likely find similar results.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Example:

This is a policy of the church at the time. But by that reason Paul was a false Apostle because he spent more than a day, in some cases years at a church.

Hope that helps.

"Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him." Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

The context is a mixed paragraph of Apostles and Prophets. The three days refers only to a prophet, not an Apostle. Reading context matters.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am an historical Christian, not Roman Catholic. The oral traditions passed down by the Apostles is on par with Scripture. You may not like this friend, but that is true. I guess we agree to disagree. But, without the History of the Church and Rule of Faith brought out in the Church Fathers you will fall into error as many have done today. I also gave Scriptures on Apostolic Succession, do you also disregard those too?

Ephesians 4:11-16
J.B. Phillips New Testament
11-13 His “gifts to men” were varied. Some he made his messengers(Apostles), some prophets, some preachers of the Gospel; to some he gave the power to guide and teach his people. His gifts were made that Christians might be properly equipped for their service, that the whole body might be built up until the time comes when, in the unity of the common faith and common knowledge of the Son of God, we arrive at real maturity—that measure of development which is meant by the “fullness of Christ”.

True maturity means growing up “into” Christ
14-16 We are not meant to remain as children at the mercy of every chance wind of teaching and the jockeying of men who are expert in the craft presentation of lies. But we are meant to hold firmly to the truth in love, and to grow up in every way into Christ, the head. For it is from the head that the whole body, as a harmonious structure knit together by the joints with which it is provided, grows by the proper functioning of individual parts to its full maturity in love.

Ephesians 4:11-16
Revised Standard Version
11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

This Historical Church of the Early Church Fathers are also part of the Church the Pillar of Truth.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Didache was considered to be Scripture by some, others did not agree.

It's date is 110 AD and speaks of a different generation of Apostles and Prophets then the original 12 Apostles. So, your argument about Paul does not apply.

"The contents include church orders and ethical teachings as relevant to the second generation of Christians." Does the Didache give biblical instruction? What is the Didache?



Nice Try
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Bye for now friend, I have work to do.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It was the early church fathers who recorded whom wrote the books of the Bible. It was Church Council in 399 CE who decided what was to be Scripture. The Bible did not fall out of the sky completed.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I too thought like you do until I studied Church History and the Fathers.

 

[hislegacy]

I too thought like you do until I studied Church History and the Fathers.

I have studied the first 300 years of the church (before it was Westernized), we have come to different conclusions. We have a difference of Doctrine, I suspect there is no changing either mind set.

But since this is a Word of Faith forum, and I am a Word of Faith minister, who has been teaching doctrine for 30 plus years, I will stay withing the forum guidelines and do humbly suggest that you would be better received in the Catholic forums.

 

[hislegacy]

The Canonization in 397 considered many different books and each of the current recognized books met the following criteria:

1. Apostolic – The book must be written by an apostle, or a ministry partner of one.
2. Orthodox – The book must agree with the the accepted and approved teachings of the church.
3. Christocentric – The book must focus on the person and work of Jesus Christ, especially in relation to His redemptive work on the cross for the world.
4. Inspiration – The book must have the qualities and characteristics of the divinely inspired Word of God.
5. Testimony of the Holy Spirit – The church authorities felt the inner witness of the Holy Spirit in helping them select certain books.
6. Acceptance by the Church – The book must already be widely accepted and used by the majority of churches.

Very simply put, the Apocrypha did not meet those guideline, nor did the diadache. They cannot be held as Canon.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

In respect, I thought we were having a good discussion. I am curious as to what sources you studied. I am always interested in reading other viewpoints as long as they employ primary sources.

How does one move this to the Catholic area?

 

[hislegacy]

In respect, I thought we were having a good discussion. I am curious as to what sources you studied. I am always interested in reading other viewpoints as long as they employ primary sources.

How does one move this to the Catholic area?

I am not Catholic, not allowed to debate there.

 

[ewq1938]