• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured By Grace Through Faith

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by StevenBelievin, Jul 20, 2017.

  1. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    How were the Old Covenant believers saved?
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,711
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Confusion arises as to folks thinking they are not under any law salvation wise when they clearly do not realize that Paul was talking about the ceremonial laws and judicial laws of Old Law of Moses and not all law (like the Laws or commands in the New Testament). Romans 3:1 asks the question, what profit is there in circumcision? Galatians 5:2 says, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Obviously circumcision is an Old Testament Law or Command and not a New Testament Command or Law.

    When Jesus died upon the cross He started a New Covenant (New Testament) and it's own laws; The Old Covenant is no more and as a result it's ceremonial laws and judicial laws are no longer in effect. God's Eternal Moral Laws for man from the onset of the beginning of creation have never changed. They existed before the written Law and they exist after. But the ceremonial laws and judicial laws of the Old Covenant are no more. That is why Paul is condemning the Law and circumcision. He is also condemning the Law because we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But God's grace is not a license to sin (Jude 1:4), but God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness (See Titus 2:11-12).

    For if you believe you are not under any Law salvation wise, then clearly you are not under the Law in 1 John 3:23 that says to believe in Jesus. But can an adult person who has a free will choice be saved without believing in Jesus? Surely not. I mean, who exactly do you think Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 6:15? Unbelievers or believers? Jesus says if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven in Matthew 6:15. So can an unbeliever be forgiven by the Father if they forgive everyone they know? No. Most certainly not. They need to believe on Jesus as their Savior and believe in His death and resurrection first. So Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. So yes. You can be unsaved by not forgiving others. Jesus says so Himself. There are other sins that can separate you from the Lord salvation wise, as well. See Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Luke 9:26, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8.

    I mean, why do you think Jesus was casting out believers from His presence in Matthew 7?
    It was not because they did wonderful works. It was because they did wonderful works and they worked iniquity and sin. They were doing evil and good and thought they were right with God. Jesus says in verses 26-27 that if you do not do what he says you are likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Jesus did not make a parable about how you cannot out sin His grace.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  3. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

    +6,912
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    His yoke is easy, and His burden is light, if we follow Him, abide in Him --

    1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

    7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

    9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other."
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,499
    Messianic
    Single
    The one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is by grace through faith, so the people in the OT were saved in the same way that we are. According to John 8:56, Abraham saw Messiah's day and was glad, so those who were saved in the OT looked forward in faith to the promise of a Redeemer, just as we look backward in faith to what he accomplished on the cross, and by the grace through the same faith Abraham was careful to obey all of God's commands, just as we ought to be. For example, in Psalms 119:29, David asked God to put false ways far from him and to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law and in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Noah found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man. It was by no accident that Noah was a righteous man, but by grace God taught him how to rightly live and Noah was a righteous man because he was careful to obey all of God's commands through faith.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  5. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    Wrong. Old Covenant believers were saved by Law. The Law was a guardian, pedagogos, babysitter, mistranslated as tutor, that kept them safe until the new way of faith came.

    You could believe God's word or you could neglect the commandments of God by holding to the traditions of men. See how this is done and who got saved :

    Luke 18:10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    Humility saves. The Law was meant to humble, so if it didn't humble, that means you hadn't followed it, had not believed God, but had bowed your knees to Baal.

    How is the New Covenant superior?
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +19,724
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    The same as we are. By God's grace alone on Christ's account alone.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  7. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

    +10,320
    Non-Denom
    Quite true. To assert that OT saints were saved by their obedience to the Law mocks the very nature of God. God is not schizophrenic - saving people by works for a couple of thousand years or so and then saving them by faith through grace after that. God's salvation, like His own nature, is immutable.
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,499
    Messianic
    Single
    Abraham and David were justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8), so God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified when a perfectly good means of becoming justified by faith was already in place. The idea that the Law was given to provide a means of becoming saved is a fundamental misunderstanding of both God's Law and of His character, which Paul spent a lot of time trying to correct by explaining that we are justified by faith apart from the Law, yet our faith uphold t. Nowhere did God require outward obedience to any of His Laws in order to become saved, but rather God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed His Law while their hearts were far from them, so since the beginning everything has been about a relationship with God based on faith.

    In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was one of the weightier aspects of the Law, and in John 14:15, Jesus said if we love him, then we will obey his commands, so obedience to God has always been about having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, about demonstrating our love for God, and thereby growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. A relationship with Christ is the goal of the Law for righteousness for all who have faith (Romans 10:4), so outwardly obeying the Law without having a focus on growing in a relationship with Christ is completely missing the whole point of the Law, which is why Paul counted doing that as rubbish (Philippians 3:8). In Romans 9:30-Romans 10:10, Israel did not fail to obtain righteousness because they did what God commanded them to and God gave them faulty instructions, but rather they failed to obtain righteousness because they pursued the Law as through righteousness were by works and sought to establish their own instead of pursuing the Law as though righteousness were by faith in accordance with the righteousness of the Law that Moses wrote about.

    The Law teaches us how to walk in God's ways (Deuteronomy 8:6) and God's ways are eternal and are not dependent on any covenant. God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so the way to live in accordance with God's righteousness is likewise eternal (Psalms 119:160), which means that it did not change when the Law was given or when Jesus came. In other words, if the way to act according to God's righteousness changed when the Law was given or when Christ came, then it would only because God's righteousness first changed, but God's righteousness does not change. So the Law is God's instructions for how to participate in the divine nature and to reflect His attributes to the world, His holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7).

    Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6). So now that he has come, we do not need to rely on God's Law to teach us how to walk in His ways, but can learn to walk in His ways by following Christ's teachings and his example of obedience to the Law. We now also have the indwelling of the Spirit, who has the role of teaching us to obey God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

    According to Hebrews 8:6, the New Covenant is superior because it has a superior mediator and is based on better promises, but it notably does not say that it is based on superior laws because that would involve following a superior God with superior attributes. It also does not say that God found fault with His righteous standard, but with the people for breaking His covenant. So the solution to the problem is not to do away with God's righteous standard, but to do away with what was hindering us from meeting it, which is why God sent Jesus to free us from sin to make us free to obey His commands.

    God's original plan was to make a covenant where the people would hear His voice and obey His commands (Exodus 19:5), and which the people originally agreed to (Exodus 19:8), but they got cold feet upon hearing God's voice and wanted a different covenant where God would speak to Moses and they would listen to Moses instead (Exodus 20:19), which God nevertheless agreed to. In lieu of hearing God's voice direct them how to walk in His ways, it became necessary for Moses to write down those instructions (Deuteronomy 5:22-33). There are many verses that equate the Mosaic Covenant to a marriage covenant, so essentially Israel agree to God's marriage proposal, but on the wedding day, she decided she only wanted to interact with her husband through a mediator. While Moses was certainly a great man, he could not be everywhere, and Israel quickly ran into problems that they could have been avoided if they had been listening to God's voice. So it eventually became necessary for God to make New Covenant that would not be like the Mosaic Covenant, not in regard to God's ways changing, but in regard to it being what the Mosaic Covenant was originally intended to be, where man would not need to act as a mediator to teach us how to walk in God ways, but where we would all have a relationship with God where we would listen to His voice (Jeremiah 31:34).

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that failing to be humble equates to bowing down to Baal, but I would agree that it would be missing one of the weightier matters of the Law that it was intended to teach. I also wouldn't say that humility saves, but rather we are saved by faith, and that the tax collector was justified because he was putting faith in God to be merciful to him, which took the form of humility. Just being humble in itself is not what saves because there are more people who are humble than who have a relationship with Christ based on faith.
     
  9. HighCherub

    HighCherub Active Member

    361
    +157
    United States
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Republican
    The Catholic Church also believes in faith through grace. The issue between Protestants in Catholics isn't Faith vs Works, that's just what a lot of people mistakenly interpret it is.

    Protestants hold to an imputation of righteousness, whereas Catholics hold to an infusion of righteousness.

    Imputed Righteousness sits on a certain sovereignty of election in God's will, where the righteous are predestined by a former, and ongoing, will of God.
    Infusion holds to a limited predestination in which God continuously examines man's will and chooses as men become saints, yet maintains a certain fate of the Church.
     
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    Wrong. Israel already had a Covenant with God through Abraham, where they were promised that God's people would be known through Isaac.

    Genesis 21:12
    But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.

    The Sinaitic Covenant was added because of transgression. Sin was decimating the population. A provision had to be made to ensure that Israel did not go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah

    Galatians 2:16
    Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

    Worldly Israelites would in the future substitute the commandments of God with the traditions of men. The purpose of the Law was to deflect the wrath of God, so that those who believed God's original commandments would be humbled by them, and turn to God (because even they sinned), who would preserve them from being carried away into exile.

    Romans 11:2-6
    2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    No longer on the basis of works. No longer indicates there was a time when it WAS on the basis of works.


    HOW IS THE NEW COVENANT SUPERIOR?

    The Old Covenant was inferior in many ways.

    1. The blood of bulls and goats could not really take away sins.
    2, The priest was elected by men.
    3, The tabernacle was built by men.
    4. The spiritual blessing was to sleep until Christ released them.

    The only tangible blessing was that a person accused of spilling blood and who had fled to a city of sanctuary could return when the officiating high priest died. It pleased God to assign a redeeming function to his death, it was God's prerogative to solve the problem of sin by the death of the priest, IN ORDER TO REVEAL TO HIS PEOPLE HOW HE WOULD SOLVE THE WORLD’S PROBLEM OF SIN THROUGH CRUSHING HIS SON.

    Numbers 35:28
    The accused must stay in the city of refuge until the death of the high priest; only after the death of the high priest may they return to their own property.

    In comparison:

    1. The blood of Christ could really take away sins:

    Hebrew 10:8-10
    8After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    2. Christ our High Priest was elected by God:

    Hebrews 7:18-22
    18For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20And inasmuch as it was not without an oath

    21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

    “THE LORD HAS SWORN

    AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,

    ‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

    22so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.


    3. Christ officiates in a tabernacle built by God:

    Hebrew 8:1-2
    1Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

    4. The spiritual blessing was to have life.

    Matthew 27:52
    The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

    John 10:10
    "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

    The better blessing in Christ was grace, not the protection in the grave afforded by Law, as pedagogos, but rest in a Land, the new Man in Christ, that was healed:

    Quote
    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

    by Vern Sheridan Poythress

    The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  11. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married

    Quote
    According to Tall, well-drafted terms should act like a manual or recipe book for doing business and having absolute clarity on what should happen in a given situation. “They should set out what the agreed terms are between parties and more importantly what happens if things go wrong or one party wants to leave or is unable to continue,” she explains. “Terms and conditions can also save a lot of money by addressing all issues at the outset. This in turn avoids disputes later on about what might or might not have been agreed.”

    The exact elements to include depends on the individual business but you should consider including:

    • A clear definition of what products or services will be provided

    • Setting out the payment terms – when is payment due

    • Any guarantees or warranties offered

    • Timelines for delivery and any queries

    • Specifying what happens if either party doesn’t deliver or pay or wants to end the relationship

    • The term of the agreement and what notice is required to get out of it

    • Which law shall govern the contract



    Setting out good terms and conditions for your small business


    Going by the above, the products or services provided by God are in the Old Covenant,


    Deuteronomy 28:1-14
    1Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2“All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the LORD your God:

    3“Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

    4“Blessed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground and the offspring of your beasts, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock.

    5“Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

    6“Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you bewhen you go out.

    7“The LORD shall cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they will come out against you one way and will flee before you seven ways. 8“The LORD will command the blessing upon you in your barns and in all that you put your hand to, and He will bless you in the land which the LORD your God gives you. 9“The LORD will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the LORD your God and walk in His ways.10“So all the peoples of the earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will be afraid of you. 11“The LORD will make you abound in prosperity, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your beast and in the produce of your ground, in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give you. 12“The LORD will open for you His good storehouse, the heavens, to give rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hand; and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13“The LORD will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully, 14and do not turn aside from any of the words which I command you today, to the right or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.



    The payment terms are :

    Deuteronomy 28:1
    1Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today,


    And again:

    Deuteronomy 28:13ff,14
    if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully, 14and do not turn aside from any of the words which I command you today, to the right or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.


    However, Paul says the Sinaitic Covenant could not supersede the Abrahamaic Covenant, where the payment terms were loyalty (always agreeing with God, not complaining!) and the benefit accrued was to be recognised as a member of the the group, God’s People, in whom the world would be blessed. I addition, he says that the Sinaitic Covenant was added because of sin.

    Sin was decimating the population. A provision had to be made to ensure that Israel did not go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah

    Galatians 2:16
    Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

    Worldly Israelites would in the future substitute the commandments of God with the traditions of men. The purpose of the Law was to deflect the wrath of God, so that those who believed God's original commandments would be humbled by them, and turn to God (because even they sinned), who would preserve them from being carried away into exile.

    Romans 11:2-6
    2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    The Law would be a pedagogos, a guardian , wrongly translated as tutor. In Ancient Greece, a slave, pedagogos, would take the children to school, ensuring they weren't run over by chariots, amongst other dangers. He would protect the children until the father arrived home.

    That is why the Law is contrasted with Grace, one being the services of the Old Covenant, the other the services of the New.

    Romans 6:14
    For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

    Paraphrase
    For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the agreement of law (where sin COULD dominate you, forcing you to beg for mercy) but under the agreement of grace (where sin COULD not dominate you, because you are IN Christ, who fulfilled the terms of payment, leaving nothing to be completed, receiving the benefits, becoming the One in whom the world would be blessed, which He executed a will for, in His blood, and died leaving an inheritance, of which He Himself, identifying with the New Man, was the first beneficiary).
     
  12. StevenBelievin

    StevenBelievin Trust In God Supporter

    335
    +202
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Correct. I am astounded how many don't understand this. Paul stated that by the law "no flesh" will be justified in His (God's) sight. Anyone who can read should be able to see from the book of Hebrews that the new covenant superseded the old as it is build on better promises. If the old covenant had been faultless there would have been no need for a new one. Also grace excludes boasting according to Romans 4, so that means those who are in Christ are not under moral or ceremonial law. When Paul uses the term "law" he is referring to the whole of the law which means any works at all.
     
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,499
    Messianic
    Single
    God's holiness and righteousness are eternal, so from the beginning there has been an eternal way to act in accordance with God's holiness and righteousness, which is not dependant on any covenant, though it was later revealed through God's covenants. So anyone who wants to look up how to reflect God's righteousness and holiness to the world can do so by reading the Mosaic Law, regardless of which covenant they are under, but as part of the New Covenant, we are still told to follow God's instructions for how to reflect His righteousness and holiness (1 John 3:10, 1 Peter 1:13-16). While Hebrews says that the New Covenant is based upon better promises with a superior mediator, it does not that it is based upon superior laws with a superior God or that God found fault with His holy and righteous standard, but rather it says that God found fault with the people for breaking His covenant.

    I do not see how this follows at all. There is absolutely nothing about grace excluding boasting that has to do with those who are in Christ not being under the moral and ceremonial law, but rather 1 John 2:3-6 says that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way he walked, which was in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law. Furthermore, the Bible makes no distinction between moral and ceremonial law, but rather it is always immoral to disobey any of God's commands. In addition, 1 Peter 1:13-16 says that we are to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct aka ceremonial laws, so it is saying that we are to follow God's ceremonial laws because that is acting in accordance with the holiness of our God.

    Paul spoke of the law of God (Romans 3:31, Romans 7:22-25, Romans 8:7), the law of sin (Romans 7:23-25), the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2), the law of the Spirit (Romans 8:2), the law of faith (Romans 3:27), the law of righteousness (Romans 9:31), the law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21), and works of law (Galatians 3:10), so if you think that every time Paul used the word "law" that he referred to the same thing, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand him. While I think most of these terms refer to all of the Mosaic Law, such the law of God, the law of the Spirit, and the law of Christ, the law of sin, and works of law both refer to something very different.
     
  14. StevenBelievin

    StevenBelievin Trust In God Supporter

    335
    +202
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I agree with that as well. Why is it that when someone states what the bible says about believers not being under law but under grace they automatically equate that with sin all you want and live however because it doesn't matter? I don't believe that grace is an excuse to sin and nowhere in my original post did I say it's okay to live for yourself because your under grace.

    I realize it was because those under the old covenant didn't obey it, but that's not what the text says. It says "For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second." (Hebrews 8:7) The text says the first covenant was not without fault.

    Let me expound on it. "27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." (Romans 3:27-28) The point is that if it excludes any ability to boast then "the works of the law" would include the whole law including moral and ceremonial. I could boast that I have never committed murder, but it doesn't depend on whether I have or not. I could boast that I have given money or time to people in need, but it doesn't depend on whether I have or not. It depends on Christ's perfection not mine. Period.

    I agree with with all of that, but some like to make the distinction that when Paul says we are not under the law, he is just referring to the ceremonial laws and not the moral ones. Paul in Romans 7:7 uses covetousness as an example of the law. That is an obvious reference to a moral law. It is immoral to covet ones neighbor's wife or possessions.

    Yes, I know all of this, but you knew what I was referring to. I put it in bold and underlined it.
     
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,499
    Messianic
    Single
    I agree that the Mosaic Covenant was not faultless, but what was the fault? Psalms 19:7 says that God's Law is perfect, so the fault is not with God's righteous standard. In Hebrews 8:9, it says that it is because they did not remain faithful to God's covenant.

    During the 1st century, there was a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences that they taught for how to obey the Mosaic Law and that were needed to be obeyed in order to become saved. For example, in Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshipped God in vain because they taught as doctrine the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so what they were teaching as the Mosaic Law was in fact their own own traditions. It is critically important to correctly distinguish between what is said about these man-made works of law and what is said about God's Law so that we do not mistake something that was only against obeying man's law as being against obeying God's Law.

    In Galatians 3:10-12, it says that these man-made works of law are not of faith, but in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's Law, so God's Law is of faith, and obeying it is straightforwardly about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live and that His commands are for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24). So in Romans 3:27-28, it distinguishes between two laws: a law of works and a law of faith. We are justified by faith apart from these man-made works of law contrary to what the Pharisees were teaching, but our faith does not do away without our need to obey God's Law, but rather our faith upholds God's Law, which means that we are to live in obedience to it by faith (Romans 3:31). God's Law was never given as a means of becoming justified, but rather it was given to those that God had already justified by faith as instructions for how they should therefore live by the same faith.

    In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said he delighted in obeying God's Law and they he served with his mind, but directly contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive that he served with his flesh. This is a summary of what Paul said previously, so it is the law of sin that came about to increase tresspasses (5:20), that stirred up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held us captive (7:6), that gave sin its power (7:8), that seized the opportunity through the commandment to deceive him and put him to death (7:11), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted (7:13-20), while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and the good that he sought to do (7:13-20). So based off of Paul's description of the God's Law and the law of sin, we should be able to correctly identify which law is being talked about in these verses:

    Romans 6:13-19 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

    God's Law instructs us how to present all of ourselves as instruments of righteousness and how to avoid presenting any part of ourselves as instruments of unrighteousness. However, verse 14 specifies that the law that we are no longer under is one where sin had dominion over us, and Paul said that God's Law is not sin, so this does not at all fit Paul's description of God's Law, but rather it perfectly fits his description of the law of sin, so we are not under the law of sin when we are under grace. According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching us to obey His Law, so if we are under grace, then we are under God's Law. This is also confirmed in Titus 2:11-14, where it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which fits perfectly with Paul's description of God's Law. Furthermore, it says that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and God's Law is again His instructions to equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). So God shows His grace to us by teaching us how to rightly live and we are to respond by faith by living in obedience to His commands. We have been saved by grace through faith, not by doing good works, lest anyone should boast, but for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

    God's Law was given to reveal what sin is, so in regard to Romans 6:15, it wouldn't make any sense for Paul to say that we aren't under God's Law, but that we are not free to do what it reveals to be sin. In Romans 6:16, we are to present ourselves to God as obedient slaves, which means that we are to obediently submit to His Laws by faith, which leads to righteousness. In Romans 6:18, we have been set free from sinning in transgression of God's Law to become slaves of doing what is righteous in accordance with God's Law. In verse 19, we are again instructed not to present ourselves as slaves of impurity and Lawlessness leading to more Lawlessness, but now to present ourselves as slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification.

    So I don't see any grounds to interpret Romans 6:14 as referring to not being under ceremonial and nothing in the surrounding context suggests this distinction is being made, but rather he was referring to us not being under the law of sin so that we can be free to obey all of God's commands.
     
  16. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +19,724
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    No one has ever been saved by the Law.

    "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh," (Romans 8:3)

    Salvation is in Christ and Christ alone.

    "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." - Acts 4:12

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  17. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    Weakened is about right. Salvation is about entering rest and the law could not help here. But there are levels of salvation, and the law could protect, act as a guardian, when not distorted into traditions of men, as the parable of the publican and the Pharisee proves.

    The law preserved the Old Testament saints until Christ came.

    Galatians 3:19
    Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

    Galatians 3:24
    Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +19,724
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Ah, so salvation is kind of like the colored belt system in martial arts. Moses was 1st Dan, but now we have like 10th Dan status.

    Or, and it's kind of a radical notion but here me out: salvation is God's work to, ya know, save the world and this He accomplished through the sending of His Son.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    That would make John a third Dan :

    Matthew 11:11
    "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    Thanks , I'll use this if it's OK with you!
     
  20. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +19,724
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Except there aren't "degrees of salvation". Salvation is the divine rescue of the world by God through the sending of Christ. That's what salvation means.

    One isn't partly saved; when the Allied forced liberated a concentration camp the people in the camp were liberated, they were rescued.

    A partial rescue isn't a rescue at all.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
Loading...