By grace or works???

[Wonder]

I can see how there is no sin in someone. People can live a sinless life...Before one comes to Christ he is not guilty because he didn't know better. Then after comeing to Christ, any mistake is taken as that, a mistake, not a sin. If you are a child, then children make mistakes, what is important is that you try. If one comes to Christ and does not what He says, and is made aware, and still do not do, then maybe that would be sin.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Wonder
I can see how there is no sin in someone. People can live a sinless life...

Okay.  Name one.  Other than Christ, of course.  Just one.  Show me the proof of how you know that any person who ever lived, except Christ, lived a life free from sin.

Before one comes to Christ he is not guilty because he didn't know better.

That is completely, totally, undeniably unbiblical.  Ignorance of the specific revelatory Word of God is not an excuse for sin (Rom 2:12).  The Law has been written on the hearts of all men and His power, even unto the Godhead, is seen in His creation so man is without excuse (Rom 1:19, 20).

Then after comeing to Christ, any mistake is taken as that, a mistake, not a sin. If you are a child, then children make mistakes, what is important is that you try.

I agree completely.

If one comes to Christ and does not what He says, and is made aware, and still do not do, then maybe that would be sin.

We are made aware by the Word of God.  We cannot use conviction of the Spirit as an excuse to sin.  It is sin because God says it sin.  Period.

God bless 

 

[NathanStinson]

I agree, noone lives a sinless life, what basis do you have to say that?

 

[Wonder]

What is done in ignorance is not sin.
The Lord said He will write His Laws on our hearts. That has not been done to everyone yet or no man would need to teach.
I think we miss each other on this next point:
quote: me
If one comes to Christ and does not what He says, and is made aware, and still do not do, then maybe that would be sin.
Quote: you
We are made aware by the Word of God. We cannot use conviction of the Spirit as an excuse to sin. It is sin because God says it sin. Period.

If I am reading in the Scriptures and I read, or He tells me that I shall not covet, I am thinking there is nothing my neighbor has that I want, but there is this say sterio I have been wanting from the store. Am I coveting?
If the Spirit convicts me...then I must repent for that is sin, till I repent...if not then it is not sin and only He would know.

Christ died so we can live a sinless life..not to say we never sinned, just the Blood washes us clean...it never happened in His eyes, then we go on to make mistakes in Him.
Thats how He can have the sinless, blameless stand before Him...He died so we can live sinless lives...otherwise we would die in our sin. There are those who understand this and can stand before their Father blameless.

If I were to give names...you wouldn't know them...they do exisit for it is written:
Gen.6:9
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
Deut.18:13
You must be blameless before the LORD your God.
Job. 1:1
In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
Luke 1:6
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
There is more!
I don't think He would ask us to walk blameless, Holy before Him if it were not possible.
In His Love

 

[endure]

reformationist

you believe we must cease sinning.
yet you believe you cannot.

that by itself is enough to make me look elswhere for truth.

but you say that the requirement of ceasing to sin is not a requirement of salvation.
what is it a requirement for?


you said
No.  A hypocrite is someone who knows the Truth and does not do it...

paul did this.
he said one certain subject he preached on he had not yet attained but he pressed towards it. so paul did what i am doing, whether my teaching is correct or not.

when the bible refers to one knowing to do right and not doing it and him being a sinner, its refering to a man who knows to do right and him refusing to do it.  
not a man striving for something he knows is the right correct way and yet not accomplishing it.

i was not reffering to me sinning but these sins not being as big of sins. i was refering to myself being not fully like God but these ways are not neccesarily sinful.
becuase even jesus was not fully like the father, yet he was not sinful. his will was diffrent than the fathers.
these kind of things are what i refer to in myself.
not me commiting actions that are ungodly but not as serious.
there are things a person can do and be diffrent than the father yet not be in sin. becuase even the one that was sinless, jesus, was not fully like the father and needed grace.


i agree that my changing my behavoir is not enough to make me holy by itself, but i dont believe you can be saved without it either. as i showed in my first post to this thread.

you said
I didn't say that it couldn't be entered.&nbsp; I said that it will not be entered in this life.&nbsp; IOW, it is the <B>striving for sinlessness</B> that makes&nbsp;us people after God's own heart.&nbsp;&nbsp;Sometimes we are given the grace by God to respond in godliness, sometimes we are not.&nbsp; That doesn't change our responsibility.&nbsp;

well i did mean that you were saying it couldnt be entered in this life, and this is what christ commands us to do.
becuase paul preached that we cannot let sin reighn in our MORTAL bodies, thats this life.
it is foolishness to preach that we must enter it in this life, and yet know we are not able.
this is what they did if we are not able.

i do not believe the statement of paul "oh wretched man that i am" was refering to his present state, but his past before he was set free from the law of sin and death.
and i do not believe "the law of sin" and "the law of sin and death" are any diffrent.

becuase paul teaches over and over that we must cease to sin, i am simply not willing to believe that we are commanded of God to do this now, if we are not fully able to do so.
and it is foolishness to say that one can but never will.

i disagree that our being less than&nbsp;exactly like the father&nbsp;always refers to sin.

and i disagree that if there is a gradual sanctification, that there is not a full sanctification.
becuase paul preached that corinthian church and we&nbsp;come unto perfection and others did too.

and i do not believe this perfect refers to being seen in a certain way before God because they were saved and were already under the fullness of grace, yet they had not come unto perfection, and this was something he wanted them to do, not something he wanted them wait contently for as if it had to wait until the rapture.

you said
Okay man.&nbsp; When you think of someone who is still alive and has completely stopped sinning then let me know.&nbsp; Until that time I'm going to go with the Truth.

well why didnt you asnwer my question?
and you cannot dilute the word of God&nbsp;with&nbsp;your lack of experience with its fullfillment.
id&nbsp;say there is more truth with what the word clearly says even if it hasnt been seen with the naked eye, then what i see everyday of my life. becuase that which is unseen is eternal, what i see is temporary. i can trust what Jesus said&nbsp;more than i can&nbsp;trust i am sitting here. if the word says we can be holy and commands me to do so, then thats what i will believe. i dont care if i never see it.

you said
Who said it didn't matter?&nbsp;<IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/scratch.gif" border=0>&nbsp; Certainly not I.
(refering to my statement about joshua)

what what did you mean then?
the word of God is that he was told to do something, or their would be consequenses.
what i mean by saying "it didnt matter" was a reference to your belief that even if we do not fullfill this now we can still go to heavon.

i am sorry, i will never believe that God commands people to do things that they cannot do. a law may be set a person who is running from his ability to fullfill it. but i will never believe that God commands people to do things that they do not have the full ability to complete.

you said
You know what would happen?&nbsp; People's "best" would get less and less measured against the example of Christ and more and more looked at as "well, this is my best."&nbsp;

and is God afraid of that?
God knows our hearts, he doesnt feel threatened with your lies or your supposed disabilities.
what? has God become subject to mans opinions and beliefs so he must require more than they can do to get the most out of them and to be justified in his damnation?
no way.

God knows our hearts, he would not really care if a man said "well this is my best" he an all wise God could easily know and prove diffrent.
and true christians&nbsp;are not this way anyway, they long for the most of God and the highest degree of holiness, they do not need a command higher than they can go, to motivate them to perfom at their highest level.
God is not a person who sits on our backs with a stick in his hand that has a weenee hanging from it in front of our face, motivating us to run after it as fast as we can, knowing we cannot ever reach it.
God is not like this.

you said
No offense man but I'm sure there are still plenty of willing sins too.

im glad you have an opinion.

its funny that your theology rests on your hopes of me being a certain way. how small a theology you have.

dont speak that **** over my life, and i dont really care that you believe that&nbsp;i will forever blaspheme God.
sorry if that seemed rude, but i found your judgement of me rather rude also.

you said
God hates <B>ALL</B> sin, blatant or not.

the way&nbsp;i used "blatant" was not a term refering to a&nbsp;diffrent type of sin.
i was simply describing things&nbsp;id have to do for them to be sins.
me being diffrent than God is not neccesarilly sinful or damning.
but me&nbsp;commiting an action&nbsp;what he has commanding me not to do is sinful.

and yes there are levels of sin actually, becuase jesus told pilot that his sin was not as great as the sin of the&nbsp;people who brought him to him.
and he spoke of diffrent levels of damnation depending on the sin.
becuase he said the pharisees would receive greater damnation than sodom becuase they commited a greater sin.

you said
I can't say I know of no one who has stopped sinning but you are perfectly comfortable saying that we can completely stop sinning in this life, though you can't name anyone aside from Jesus who has done so?&nbsp; Sorry man, that doesn't make any sense.&nbsp;

it makes great sense, this is the substance great things are made of. there have been to many mockers based on lack of experience quieted by great achievement to say it makes no sense.
if one&nbsp;was limited to only the levels pre-achieved, then the human race would not be what it is today.

though that is not say that i am agreeing that&nbsp;no one besides jesus has been able to live without sin the later portion of their life, and yes i do refer to more than 2 seconds of their life.
and yes more then 3 as well.
sorry its just you seem to be very complex in your theology.

i believe the work that jesus did will only play a part in your salvation, or else why dont all come to christ?
or else why didnt he make this known becuase surely hed have had a greater following. if works are not required to finish your salvation, then why did he says things like a rich man can hardly enter heavon?

you said
Paul was justified.&nbsp; you reply incorrectly to my statement.
i was saying like this...
say
"eric sees paul sin, but paul does not want eric to believe that eric is justified becuase of what he saw paul do. paul did not believe himself sinning was justification for eric to sin.

yes we are justified.
but this refers to our pasts not being held agaisnt us, i dont believe it means present sins will not be held agaisnt you.

shoot, i had about twice this must typed but
i just accidently deleted the rest of my post...
hmm.
maybe ill redoit some other time, sorry.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by endure
shoot, i had about twice this must typed but
i just accidently deleted the rest of my post...
hmm.
maybe ill redoit some other time, sorry.

endure, while I admire your dedication to putting forth your views, despite whether I agree with them, I'd like to just offer some advice.&nbsp; Capatalization.&nbsp; A post of that length, which you said was only half it's intended length, is very difficult to follow if not properly written.&nbsp; Also, new paragraphs are for new thoughts.&nbsp; Every sentence need not be it's own paragraph.&nbsp; You seem very intelligent and I'd like to address some of the things you have to say, but, to be honest, I tend to avoid dealing with posts of that length that are so difficult to follow grammatically.&nbsp; It makes my head hurt.&nbsp; Not to mention, I always feel as if I'm going to misinterpret something you say.

God bless

 

[endure]

i understand, i am sorry.
grammer and english were never my best areas, i barely made it through highschool because i was lasy and those subject were my worst.
only lately after i have been reading alot have i changed the way i speak into a more clear elaborate way, but yes i understand that when i write i do tend to make mistakes and sometimes not know how to express myself as clearly as i should. and the grammer mistakes sometimes make my writing hard to understanding, sometimes its like a language only i know how to enterpret.

i am sorry.
for certain reasons i will not be on here again for a while or much anymore. i have enjoyed listening to your thoughts, if someone shows me i am wrong then&nbsp;i will not be so proud to deny it.
you have shown me things i did not know.
thankyou, goodbye for now.
lee myers. godlbess you.
im sorry i couldnt fix this with proper punctuation, but i have to leave now.

 

[Job_38]

The works are supposed to be a sign of our faith, not works give our faith.

 

[Caleb]

Faith and salvation come first, then our faith is shown by our works.

Eph. 2:8,9

 

[settergren]

Salvation is by Faith alone, which is a gift from God. God is the author of our faith. Then and only then can we peform the good works which he has prepared in advance for us to do. These good works are good for rewards in heaven... of course then that means that there is great value in good works. However, they do nothing for unregenerate man. Only once you are saved by Faith (not of yourselves), then works are meaningful.

 

[calvinist]

Dear Settergren,

I enjoyed your post, especially the "not of yourselves" line. Indeed works are important. Remember what happened to the tree that would not yield fruit for Jesus and his disciples?! Do works define our salvation or does salvation define our works? If anything God's infinite grace defines our salvation, and through that we go on to produce fruit (works) for the glory of God.
Rejoicing in God's Unconditional Election,
Calvinist

 

[settergren]

Originally posted by calvinist
Dear Settergren,

I enjoyed your post, especially the "not of yourselves" line.

Thank you Calvanist!

Do works define our salvation or does salvation define our works?

Certainly works can't define our salvation in the sense that they are cause for our salvation. They are&nbsp;a proof or a product of one's salvation. I like the way you phrased this question!

 

[endure]

i fully understand the truth about our salvation coming from god when we ask in faith lest any man should boast in his own works.
but if we do not continue in good works&nbsp;but enter back into sin then we do not&nbsp;make it to heavon.
yes faith saves,but as simple as one can be on this issue, is that faith without works is dead.
you believing in christ will do you no good if you do not have holiness in you.

the bible says that we are saved by faith, and we put on the new man, which the bible says is crafted in righteousness and true holiness, but if we yeild our bodies as intruments of sin unto satan, then we go back to sin and we will not be saved.

thats why paul exhorted the corinthians to hold strickly to the teachings he gave them, less they act another way and as he said (and i quote) "you have believed in vain!"
you can have faith in vain.

and paul also said that he laboured, lest he receive the grace of god in vain! you can receive grace in vain.

i understand that faith gets the ball rolling, but without works, it will never finish the course.


and i do understand that without faith in the saving blood of jesus christ, your works come to nothing.

but the bible also teaches that if works do not follow your faith, then you partook of grace vainly and you still die, and you believed in jesus vainly and you still die.

that is why paul commanded us to walk circumspectly or perfectly, in eph 5.15 becuase it is possible to have beleived and received grace vainly, if you do not walk in holiness.

and that is also why jesus warned people who wanted to become disciples, lest they enter into something that could not finish or werent willing to finish.
in reference to people commiting to him, he gave an analogy of a man building a building, but looking first to see if he had what it takes to finish the work.
and a king going to war, and first looking to see if he had what it took to win.
jesus warned people who wanted to follow him, to first look and see the requirments, lest they begin and not be able to finish.
becuase there is a conduct and set of rules and regulations one must follow as christians.
it isnt this "oh come and get saved, it doesnt take anything on your part" thing.
God isnt this celestial beggar in heavon who just cant bear to live alone and needs you, he doesnt allow all in. only those willing to walk in holiness and complete conformity to his will.

and i know the question will be asked about "well who can do this?"
the answer is, the bible clearly says that he gives plenty of provision and power to any that seek it and are willing to pay the price.

it isnt salvation by works, but the man of God did say that faith without works is dead.

 

[Ratioann]

without reading any of the other posts, i'd like to answer the original question.
Works also show to yourself and others where your heart is. It provides proof of salvation and witnesses to others.

God Bless and GoodNight

 

[Hanani]

ok i didn't take time to read every post so i'm just gonna sorta give a response best i can

the hard part of the question "By grace or works?" is you have to define grace and you have to define what is required for salvation

so i'm just gonna put down my oppinion on the subjects

first what is grace. grace is an enabling you CANNOT resist an enabling you choose to use it or not

so by Gods grace (enabling) that he gave to everyone we can be saved but we must believe in it or have faith in it and God

faith without works is dead! it's that simple there is no such thing as a "Lazy christian" thats an oxymoron

this goes to the idea of actions speak louder then words you can say you have faith as much as you want but if you don't have actions to back that up then truely in your heart your probably not only decieving others but yourself as well

lets define works for a real quick works imo is following Gods commands and trying to live your life after Jesus example

some food for thought this topic leads right into osas (once saved always saved) now this is right there with the Lazy christian imo the idea of once saved always saved is the same mindset of an apathetic agnostic it disapates responsability and gives an excuse for many people to sin it's right up there with the LIE that you can't resist sinning btw on this same topic osas is a possibility but if it were true then many many people were never saved

so lets recap saved by grace through faith if you have faith it's gonna show in your life through works (this isn't hard if you have faith it should come naturaly) if you don't have works you don't realy have faith your just deceiving yourself.

ok theres a couple of my random thoughts

*Stands prepared to fight back the oncomming flames*

 

[unitedistand]

to summerize some major points of what hannai said, the following will be stated as well:

faith is to works as knolege is to wisdom.

Wisdom is Knolege put into use.

if a person doesn't act on what he or she knows, that knolege is useless and brings fourth NO RESULTS.

a Work is Faith put to the test

If a person doesn't act according to their faith, the faith is useless and brings fourth no results.

see the parallel?

 

[Hanani]

props unitedistand very nice post heres another interesting quote about wisdom and yes i know this is qwazi tangetish

wisdom is understanding when and how to apply your knowledge

 

[Aviyah]

25th November 2002 at 07:40 PM DeputyDan said this in Post #10 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=473475#post473475)

To me "Works" is how we thank God for what he has already done for us.

The saving has already been done.............

the work we do for the Lord should be out of love for the Lord and the KIngdom and obedience
thats the hard part
not because we have to or feel we have to we all want to do something or we feel guilty
iits hard not to think we can act good and be on God's top list, but we are all the same in the KIngdom

 

[dnich163]

Hello Jaye,
David here from central Scotland. I am RC, but do voluntary work with a lot of people of different denominations in Glasgow for homeless and the like.

I am not sure about the grace thing. Grace; as I understand it, is a pure act of God's giving of himself. In a situation like that we would have no option but to "do God's will"
I think what may be the issue is Faith and Good works.

This is an old area of theological difference between the RC and Protestant churches.
The Protestant stance is that Faith alone saves us.
The Catholic one is Faith and Good works, commonly know as the Catholic AND !

I think that if we come to know Jesus that it should lead to us wanting to do more, to tend for the homeless and the downtrodden as Jesus would do.

It's a bit like being married. If I say to my wife that I love her more than anything or anybody and yet run after some other woman, my words sound a bit hollow and false.
If however I am devoted to my wife and display it by my actions then this would be the outward sign of an inner love.

I think it should be like this with the word of God, that it transforms us to be disciples of Jesus.

In the mission where I do some of the voluntary work in Glasgow, they have a number of posters on the walls.
One of them asks " What would Jesus do?" or alternatively the sign WWJD.

It does not say what would Jesus "say", but "do".

David

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Last night my finacé and I were talking and he posed the question

"we are saved by grace, not works, and yet there are lots of rules/laws that we are supposed to obey, why?"

1COR 7:20-24 INSTEAD OF SLAVES TO SIN WE ARE SLAVE TO CHRIST

I put to him that although we are saved by grace that we should still try to obey these rules and laws for at least these two reasons.


Your sister in Christ

Jay

Dog bark because he is a dog the same goes with a Christian he does the work of God and according to Hebrews it is a rest not really work.

If the believer is carnal they canot do the work of God.