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By grace or works???

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by jayebrownlee, Nov 25, 2002.

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  1. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Jesus says that if you dont feed the hungry, etc, then you go to Hell. Do you really think works dont matter? If it was automatic, then why does he warn us so much about not doing works?

    --

    When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

    He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
    For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.

    Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
    When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
    When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
    And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

    Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'


    Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
    He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
    And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
     
  2. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    So what if you do all those things you mentioned in the other thread s0uljah?  Does that mean you will go to Heaven?  "Doing things" isn't what makes an action pleasing to God.  It's why you do them.  You could feed every person in the world but if you did it because you felt you need to to be saved then it would profit you nothing.  It's the exact same thing that was told to the Jews about circumcision:

    Galatians 5:1-3
    Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.  Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

    If you think you complete or add to the work that Christ ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED FOR YOU SPECIFICALLY by your works then you are a debtor to keep the whole Law and it is by how well you kept the Law that you will be judged worthy of Heaven.  And, make no mistake, you will come up short.

    Keeping the Law at every point would get this response:

    Luke 17:10
    So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, "We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do."

    IF you kept the Law AT EVERY SINGLE POINT your view on that should be that you have just done what was expected of you.  And NO ONE keeps the Law at every point.  No one.

    Of course works matter.  It is by our works that we show ourselves approved.  It is not by works that we are approved.  Rather I should say that it is not by our works that we are approved.

    God bless
     
  3. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    According to Jesus if you do them, you can enter Heaven. If you dont, you can enter Hell.

    Its up to you. This isnt about being perfect or keeping the law all the time. It is about trying to do what He tells us to do.

    Not according to Jesus in the passage I showed you. Works directly effect your salvation.
     
  4. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Okay.  Great.  You know anyone besides Jesus who kept every Law in the Bible? 

    See, now that's not what you said.  You didn't say "trying to do what He tells us to do."  You said if you don't do X you won't get into Heaven. 

    Okay.  Do you really want to be judged by your works or Christ's works in your stead?  I don't know why it's so important for you to feel like you going to get into Heaven because you earned it.  You won't.  Nothing you do is going to merit your entrance into Heaven.  Nothing.  Do you really want to get your just desserts?  I sure don't.  I fall short all the time.  I know that the only reason I am in God's family is because God put me there.  You seem to think that you're in God's family because you appealed to Him and He found your appeal worthwhile and if you stay true to His Word and never fail, or if you do fail you repent, and that's what merits your salvation.  I'm under no such delusion.  I'm saved because of what Christ did.  What I do in an effort to glorify God is because I recognize that.  I never try to do good works to show God how obedient I am.  I'm obedient, sometimes, because He is steadily showing me my errors and sanctifying me.  I put all my trust in Him.  You put all the trust that you don't put in your works in Him.

    God bless
     
  5. Wonder

    Wonder Member

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    Let me see if I can put all this together...It is Jesus who works through us. not our works but His.
    He kept the Law perfectly...so He is working through us...yet we cannot keep the law?? Is that like saying He can't do it twice in a roll?
    I think I am confused and need a break....catch ya'll in a week or so..or when ever my brain catches up with this board.
    One more question...feeding spiritual food ...considered feeding those who are hungry for it? Or does it have to be eating, chewing, meat, veggies type of food?
     
  6. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Hey Wonder!  Good to see you!  I'd just like to point out one very poignant thing.  If God had desired immediate and unswerving obedience and devotion don't you think that He could have just sovereignly inculcated us with the righteousness of Christ?  Obviously, since that's not what He did, that wasn't how He planned to bring about our sanctification.  He left our fallen nature as part of us so that we would struggle against that and build our faith through our trials.  It's like spiritual weights.  Think about regular weights.  If we lift weights the resistance from those weights causes our muscles to grow.  It works the same way with our spiritual growth.  We learn to rely more and more on His grace and less and less on our ability to be perfect that we are constantly being refined by the struggle of spirit vs. flesh.  At some point we hopefully learn to look at life the way David did:

    1 Samuel 17:37
    Moreover David said, "The LORD, who delivered me from the paw of the lion and from the paw of the bear, He will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine."

    We learn to look at our past experiences and see all of the ways in which the Lord is conforming us to the image of His Son.  We draw on those experiences and our faith grows.

    David knew that, though this warrior was much more skilled in combat, God would deliver him from death.

    God bless
     
  7. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +153
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    Romans 3:19-28
    (19)Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God;
    (20)because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
    (21)But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    (22)even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is not distinction;
    (23)for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    (24)being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    (25)whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
    (26) for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
    (27)Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, by the law of faith.
    (28)For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works fo the Law.


    If we wish to be judged by the works we do in order to decide whether we shall enter heaven or hell, we see that our mouths will be closed and we will be held accountable before God. We could never do enough good works to earn salvation or gain entrance into Heaven.

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    (8)For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
    (9)not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
    (10)For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


    So as Christians we are not saved or kept by our good works, but rather upon our conversion/regeneration we do good works as a result of our salvation.

    Just as a tangent, the past tense of saved grabs my attention. We have been saved, seems to imply that the full work of salvation is complete. I would need to look at the Greek to see if there is any significance, though.

    God Bless
     
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I agree with your post Jes.  Just to add one thought on the tense of saved, I think the reason that term is used is that there is a process that needs to be acknowledged regarding our salvation.  I would put it this way, as did David Chilton in Paradise Restored, we were definitively saved by Christ's work on the Cross, we are progressively saved from our sinfulness during our lives through our sanctification, and we are finally saved upon our glorification when we are cleansed from all iniquity.  Definitively, progressively, finally. :)

    God bless,

    Don
     
  9. endure

    endure Active Member

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    this is what i beleive
    1 cor 15.1-2, 10
    ...i declare unto you the gospel which i preach unto you...by which ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what i preach unto you, unless you have beleived in vain.

    by the grace of God i am what i am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but i laboured more abundantly than they all yet not i but the grace of god which was in me.

    in the virst passage we read that paul says you can beleive or have faith in vain. he was saying that these people needed to keep the exact doctrine he taught them, lest they begin to live diffrently and their faith be in vain. proving that faith is not enough, but there must be a set conduct with it, becuase only those who are holy will see the father, and over and over jesus and the disciples commanded people to BE HOLY, they did not believe it was something that was already done or did not need a persons own attendance to.

    in the second passage we read of paul saying you can have grace bestowed upon you in vain. he said that becuase he labored that the grace wasnt in vain. Gods grace is not enough to save a man by itself, there must be a conduct of righteousness with it, or else the grace was given in vain. if paul had not turned from sin and followed God, than the grace presented him would have been presented in vain.
    proving that Gods grace is not enough.
    yet at the same time, he said that it wasnt the works that saved him, but the grace. works are in vain if God doesnt have grace upon you becuase untill he applies grace, your still the same old sinner you always were, and what you do with your hands and feet doesnt change who you are. grace changes you, but you can be given grace in vain if you do not set yourself to living the right kind of life.

    i think a clearer picture is when paul rebukes the corinthians and says that he himself planted, and that appollos watered.
    yet GOD gave the increase. 
    him planting was needed, and apollos watering was needed, but unless God was in it nothing happened. but this doesnt mean that God did it all becuase it was their job to plant and water.
    God couldnt do it by himself, but neither could they.
     
    you must know that without grace and having faith that your works are in vain, but without the right conduct of life you can be disqualified and grace and faith be in vain.
    there is no liberty to sin as christians, its not ok.
    yet without grace and faith changing you into that new creature and getting rid of your filthy past then all manner of works are in vain.

    some christians seem to think that because of grace sin doesnt matter, they all know that there not supposed to sin, but when they do sin they its ok becuase of grace. but this is not true.

    paul proves this in romans 6.15-16
    what then? shall we sin? becuase we are not under the law but under grace? GOD FORBID.
    know ye not that to whom ye yeild yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness.

    even though your under grace, if you sin, then you just made sin your master unto death.

    this proves that God does will for man to cease to sin, and has given provision to, or else salvation is not possible.
     
  10. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Good thing that "stopping sinning" isn't a prerequisite for salvation.

    God bless
     
  11. endure

    endure Active Member

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    being holy is an obligation of salvation, and that means an absence of sin.

    but i am not saying one needs to be holy before in order to begin the process, but one must continue in holiness.
     
  12. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Our being holy in our works is not required for salvation.  We are holy only because of the works of the Holy One, Christ.  If anyone thought their life had an total absence of sin they would be deluding themself.

    We are definitely called to be holy, that's true.  This is a reference to our desire to holy manifesting itself in our works.  It is a lifelong process that never comes to full fruition until we are glorified.

    God bless
     
  13. endure

    endure Active Member

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    being holy in our works is not required to receive grace and be born again.... that is true. that is what it means that we are saved by grace and not works.

    but being holy in our works is certainly required in order to remain a christian or be saved ultimatly in the day of the lord. |

    paul said in romans 6.12-18
    12, Let not therefor sin reighn in your mortal BODY that ye should OBEY it, in the lusts there of.

    (this is certainly speaking of works, it speaking of physical obedience to sin in the physical actions of your BODY. this command in scripture is enough proof that God commands us to cease to sin)

    13, Neither yeild ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yeild yourselves unto God. as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    (again this is clearly speaking of works, we are required by God to cease to do sin with the members, digits, parts of our body, and yeild our body parts, our actions and works, unto him. and this is what it truely means to be alive from the dead, there is no christian who continues to work sin in his bodily actions.
    it isnt saying a christain does not have the ability perfom these unholy acts, but it is saying that christians are not allowed to do these things and God never refuses something from us without a reason, christians must live holy to be saved and to continue in him)

    14, FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU: for ye are not under the law but under grace.

    (christians are not in a state where they cannot overthrow sin, sin does not have to overpower or trick a christian into sin. christians are not obligated to continue in sin. because we are under grace, a law that enables it subjects to fullfill its requirements by the power of the spirit, unlike being under the old law)

    15, what then shall we sin because we are not under the law? but under grace? god forbid
    16, know ye not that to whom ye yeild yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness.

    (right here he addresses your theory, you say that becuase we are not under the law and becuase we are under grace by the death of jesus and love of God, that righteousness in works in not required of us...
    he clearly states that he does not agree with you, saying that if you yeild yourself, your body, your actions, unto sin, then you make sin your master, becuase thats who you are obeying with your body. he clearly says right here that christians must live holy lives, work holiness in their body, in order to be saved, becuase it says you are required to do more than just believe in jesus unto righteousness, but yeild yourselfs to God unto righteousness)

    17, but God be thanked, that ye were the servants, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    (he says it very clearly here, he says they were once obeying sin with their bodies, but now they obey a teaching, a form of doctrine, a command. they are living their lives in a way that obeys a doctrine. this can be nothing else but working it with the members of their bodies, works.)

    18, being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    (these people did not become free from sin or sinning, untill they began to live a diffrent way, which was obeying this doctrine, this is when they became the servants of righteousness which means one who works righteousness in his body. a phsyical action of serving righteousnss.)

    you cannot say that God does not require us to work righteousness in our bodies when the scripture here clearly commands us to yeild our bodies unto God, and not let sin remain in or control our bodily actions. becuase the scripture commands us to.
    i think that you may say he does require it  but not to be saved, well paul said the diffrent effects of obeying sin or righteousness was DEATH or righteousness. not any other little punishment that still allowed you to enter heavon.

    paul said he had to keep his body under which in the greek means to subdue the body or flesh and bring its passions into subjection.
    he said there would only be one consequense if he did not do this, he would be a castaway, not anything less.

    i am not saying this is done automaticly by christians, or that if a christian doesnt live right he cant be saved again, but i do know that without holiness in body you will not see the Lord.
     
  14. endure

    endure Active Member

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    you cannot say its something to be strived only and that we cannot fullfill it untill weve took on incorruption in heavon, becase the bible commands it to be done now, with life or death consequenses.

    paul commanded us to awake to righteousness and sin not in 1 corinthians. we have the command, we must obey.
    it is great foolishness for someone to preach so greatly about not sinning, yet mean that it cant be done now.

    jesus said that the things he wanted to tell them but that they could not handle lest they be offended and fall away, he did not tell them.

    how foolish jesus and the disciples were for commanding people to stop sinning, and yet know or not understand that it cant be fullfilled yet anyway. theyve either layed a huge burden on people that they cannot carry, the same as the old law, or these great men of God lack understanding, the men we get our doctrine from.
     
  15. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Being "born again" is "being saved," at least definitively.

    Name one single person in the Bible that did not sin their whole lives, and I don't mean constantly I mean throughout their whole lives, aside from Jesus. 

    I never said that so I don't know where this is coming from.

    The commandments of God are responsibilities that don't necessarily indicate moral ability.  Just because God commands us to do something doesn't mean that we are able to do it.  God commands complete righteousness in the behavior of all mankind.  Fallen man, however, does not have the moral ability to fulfill this requirement.  That's why Jesus was sent.  To fulfill the Law that we could not, and never will be able to, fulfill until we are glorified and made perfect in action as well as account.

    But that is what you've said this whole post.  And, for that matter, I'm not disputing the fact that without being righteous in God's eyes we won't see the Lord.  But it is not how well you keep the Law that makes you righteous.  It's because of the salvitic work of Christ and God giving us the credit for His perfect work that makes us holy in God's eyes.  That's what the Jews had trouble with.  They didn't see the sacrifice of Christ as the perfect propitiation and sufficient and effecient in making us holy in God's eyes.  They held on to the idea that they had to complete the work of the Lord by keeping the Law.  The problem was that no one keeps the Law, except Jesus.  "Keeping the Law" is a result of God regenerating us, not a means to be regenerated.  Our "keeping of the Law" is what comes out of God's work of redemption.

    God bless
     
  16. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    As I said, commanding something of us does not indicate our ability to fulfill it in it's supreme capacity.  It is indicative of the nature of God.  Have you ever known someone that, while they were alive, doesn't sin or has stopped sinning? 

    I never said otherwise.  What I said was that there is a difference between "must" and "can."

    Okay.  Answer these three questions for me:

    Do you believe and preach that we should not sin?

    Do you sin? 

    Does that make you foolish?

    No.  Not at all.  It's about striving for righteousness because we desire the things of God.  It's about being people after God's own heart.  It is not about being able to never sin.  Our sin has been atoned for.  That doesn't mean keep sinning.  It means recognize the gift you've been given and life in the state of grace in which God has placed you.

    God bless
     
  17. endure

    endure Active Member

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    i havent figured out how do that nifty copy and past thing yet so...

    you said
    Being "born again" is "being saved," at least definitively.

    being born again does refer to one being saved, but it does not guarantee you that no matter what youll go to heavon becuase one has the ability to go back to a life of sin and forfiet this salvation.
    just becuase you get born again does not mean you have no more worries, becuase it something you must keep and abide in.`

    you said
    I never said otherwise.  What I said was that there is a difference between "must" and "can."

    so you believe you must do something that you cannot do?
    and you really agree that you must do this?

    you said
    "Okay.  Answer these three questions for me:

    Do you believe and preach that we should not sin?

    Do you sin? 

    Does that make you foolish?"

    it is not hypocrital to preach something that are not doing, it is hypocritical to preach something you do not intend to do.
    whatever you may think, i am coming to the place of ceasing sin, i can see it depleting from my life everyday.
    i do not believe i am at the place of fullfilling this yet, becuase there is much i still do not understand about spiritual matters and how to overcome my flesh and sin, but untill i do i ask God to forgive me and grant me knowledge that i never do that again, and it is happening.
    i do know this, the things i do now are mistakes, they are not the willing disobediences and abominations to God that used to fill my life, and untill i come to full understanding of satans tactics and the nature of the flesh and the spirit i will continue to fail from lack of knowledge, but God has mercy of mistakes, its a diffrent thing with disobedience. and i am rapidly coming to the place of this knowledge.
    i do not preach that full sanctification is done in a day or can be done automaticly, but one can rid himself of willing disobedience from their heart at his own will by the power of the spirit, the rest are mistakes and Gods mercy is never ending on those. but through understanding and the spirit, one can put these things away aswell.

    1.yes i do preach that we should not sin.

    2.yes there are sins or failures i may say, still in my life that i have yet to understand how to remove.

    3.no.

    one preaching about a place he is going but has not been is not foolish, one commanding another to go somewhere that cannot be entered, that is foolish.

    you said
    No.  Not at all.  It's about striving for righteousness because we desire the things of God.  It's about being people after God's own heart.  It is not about being able to never sin.  Our sin has been atoned for.  That doesn't mean keep sinning.  It means recognize the gift you've been given and life in the state of grace in which God has placed you.

    what i read is jesus commanding a woman to go and sin no more, not go and do the best you can and leave the rest to grace, im sorry i can find times of God commanding us to leave sin, but i cannot find God ever telling people that they did ok because they did the best they could. i just dont see that in scripture.
    it is a fact that we are commanded to go and sin no more.
    if God did not mean for us to do this then what did he mean?
    why doesnt he just say what he means instead of saying what he doesnt really mean and leaving us to intepret?
    God did not say strive for righteousness, he said go and sin no more, thats just what i read in scripture man.

    i do remember God telling joshua to obey the law and not step to the right or to the left, he said it had to be exact.
    im not just saying this for aregument.... but would God be so dogmatic about something if it really didnt matter?

    second post

    you said
    As I said, commanding something of us does not indicate our ability to fulfill it in it's supreme capacity.  It is indicative of the nature of God.  Have you ever known someone that, while they were alive, doesn't sin or has stopped sinning? 

    well tell me... why would God command things of us that he knows we cannot do? and why does he clearly tell us that the consequenses mean life or death if he does not mean that?
    i can only speak for myself becuase i do not know other peoples lives, and i have found something that i am running after with all my heart but have not yet fullfilled because i am still a child in christ in many aspects, and this i do preach.
    i have matured and overcome willing disobedience and running to sin, but their are mistakes of myne where i still fall short if you count those the same as willing sins.
    but i can tell you that i am growing, i can look back and see things that used to rule my life that are now dead on the road behind me, i am on my way. i have not fullfilled it, but i am running and thanks be to God and his mercy and his Spirit.
    all i know is God said do it, that does not mean it is something that can be done in a day, but that is enough evidence to prove to me that it can be done while in the present state of being, the state in which you recieved the command.

    as far as blatant sins and things God hates, i have overcome them and have the ability to continue doing so as long as i abide in him.
    does that mean i never make an unwise decision or do something i could have done better than? by no means.
    i do not believe one must be perfect in all his ways in order to be free of sin, becuase jesus was free of sin, yet even he had times when he said his will was not the same as the fathers and even he said that he himself was not "good" but only the father. it even says that he grew in "grace" even Jesus christ needed "grace".
    even he was not this thing people imagine when they think of "perfect"yet he was free of sin.

    so i do not believe one must be free of weakness, fault, or any shortcoming in order to refuse what God calls an abomination. just becuase your not perfect, does not mean you have to yeild your body to unholy things.

    i know i didnt reply to everything, i may not be able to untill tommorow morning, i am sorry. i would like it if you would wait on them if you could, so you could get the full meaning of what im saying. if they are posted underneath already, they will be tommorow or within a day.
     
  18. endure

    endure Active Member

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    im sorry i got some things out of order, these are from your first post.

    you said
    Name one single person in the Bible that did not sin their whole lives, and I don't mean constantly I mean throughout their whole lives, aside from Jesus.

    i do know of paul who did say he was set free from the law of sin.
    just because they never wrote to their own glory and testified of their own sanctification in their letters to the churchs (refering to disciples of course) does not mean they did not ever fullfill their own teaching. paul did esteem his own life holy enough that he told men to follow his example as he followed christ.
    and even if these men failed, as they very well had the ability to do, you cannot dilute the authority of the word of God by saying they didnt do it or that you know of no-one who has.
    paul did say with his own lips that he could be a castaway even though he preached to others, the authority of the word of God is not lowered by how well these men fullfilled it. paul knew he had the ability to preach the truth to others and not fullfill it himself.
    he would not want a man to look at his(pauls) sin and think he(himself) was justified.
    you cannot resort to refute the integrity of this, by the presenting evidence that none may have obeyed it before.
    you know as well as i that the law is the law whether men obey it or not, and men not obeying it doesnt change that God said it and must somehow give us provision to doit.

    you cannot deny that we are commanded to do so, and knowing the wisdom and justice of God i am convinced that he has given us provision to do so becuase he does not speak in vain and call his people to work in vain.

    you said
    I never said that so I don't know where this is coming from.

    i was refering to the fact that you do not think being holy in your works matters for your salvation. the fact that you do not think a man must work holiness really does mean that men are not required to work holiness. you can say you think were required but cannot, but you say God understands this and covers it with mercy also, thus really you are saying it isnt required. right?

    you said
    The commandments of God are responsibilities that don't necessarily indicate moral ability. Just because God commands us to do something doesn't mean that we are able to do it. God commands complete righteousness in the behavior of all mankind. Fallen man, however, does not have the moral ability to fulfill this requirement. That's why Jesus was sent. To fulfill the Law that we could not, and never will be able to, fulfill until we are glorified and made perfect in action as well as account.

    maybe sin does destroy even the heathen becuase of the law, but that doesnt mean God was ok with that, that was the purpose jesus was sent, to change the fact that they could not fullfill it, not to just be able to look over it, because he gave us much more more than just forgiveness, he gave us understanding, and great power that can overcome all sin and all the power of the enemy.
    he didnt just give us mercy, he gave us a way to change. thats why he said youd know the people that are or are not of him by their fruit, there certainly is a change in lifestyle for the christian, we are not like the heathen who cannot fullfill righteousness or else wed produce the same things as them and wed have no diffrent fruit to be known by.
    and yes we can fullfill the righteous of the law in our bodies, and this was one of the reasons Jesus came.
    romans 8.3-4
    for what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
    4, that the righteousness of the law might be fullfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.

    (Jesus came and died to do more than just forgive, but to give us the Spirit that we might walk a new walk and change our bodily actions, that through the Spirit we might fullfill those commandments. and this is refered to as "walking" refering to actions, not just a state of being seen diffrent through Gods eyes)

    gal 6.2
    bear ye one anothers burdens, and so fullfill the law of Christ.

    (this just one example of one way we truely can fullfill the law of Christ in our bodily actions right now)

    i fully understand and agree with the fact that a carnal man cannot fullfill the law of God, and i know that if a man says in himself "i will fullfill this law" then he will fail, because he cannot by himself, but there must be an inward changing and quickening of our mortal bodies and then when God has made us holy inside, we can act Holy outside. i know this is a work of God and not of man.
    but is a work that must be completed nonetheless in order for us to see the lord. becuase when the bible speaks of a man being holy, then it is refering to him being holy in Gods sight, and holy in his actions, becuase like paul said the person you are serving is your master, the things you are doing determine what you are.

    you cannot say that by grace God can see you holy even though your living in sin, the bible commands us over and over to stop sinning, whats the purpose if we cant so really dont have to?

    paul clearly said that even though we got saved and are under grace, we cannot sin, becuase if we do then we make sin our master, and that action is unto death, its not just looked over by the blood of Christ.

    jesus said over and over that if you are of him then youd have fruit to bear witness of it, isnt this clearly speaking of the fact that christians can be known by their lifestyles or bodily actions?
    there is no meaning to this if even christians are bound to live sinful lives.
    jesus condemned the pharisees and said YOU ARE NOT OF MY FATHER, OR ELSE YOUD DO THE WORKS OF MY FATHER.
    jesus did not think a man could be of God and yet do things that are ungodly. he said he knew these people were of the devil, by no other means than by looking at their works.
    this is not correct and jesus said this meaninglessly if one can be of God and yet work ungodliness in his body and if a conduct of righteousness is not an obligation of christians.

    if Jesus saw works of evil and called it "the devil" along with the person...
    how can a person ever claim to be holy through jesus' eyes and have ungodliness in his life?
    evil works are of the devil, this is a fact.
    how can a christian be a christian and have evil works?
     
  19. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Well, the OSAS vs. OSnAS is definitely one of the more popular discussions on this MB.  There are plenty of people on both sides of the fence.  Let me be clear though, I do not believe one can lose their salvation but I don't plan on going into depth on that unless you wish.  But I do believe that our works matter.  They are just not what gets us saved nor can they cause us to lose our salvation. 

    I do not believe that anyone in history, other than Jesus has lived a life free of sin and yet that is something we are commanded to do.  I do not even believe there has ever been anyone who has ceased sinning since they've been saved unless, of course, God saves someone and they die two seconds later. :)

    As I said, "must" refers to responsibility, and yes, I believe we are responsible to keep the law. 

    No.  A hypocrite is someone who knows the Truth and does not do it:

    James 4:17
    Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

    That does not speak of sin.  That is speaking of our knowing what is right and not doing it.  Intent is obviously part of that.  Sin is not just sin when we know that something is sinful, however.  There is a standard and that standard is not our knowledge.  God has written the truth on each of our hearts.  All people will be judged.  If the Spirit of God does not reside in someone then they will have to atone for their own sins.

    Well, that's great.  I never said that as we mature in our faith that our sins shouldn't happen less and less.  I do believe that's the case.  However, as long as you are in this fleshly coil you will sin, even if only occasionally.  And by the way, all sin is an abomination to the Lord.  It is the antithesis to His entire nature.  Only humans catagorize sin into all these levels.  For God there is sin that is forgivable, and there is a sin that is not.

    And there is nothing wrong with these answers.  In fact, I think they describe every Christian.  However, it's not you removing your disobedient behavior that makes you holy.  It never was and it never will be.  What made you holy, in account at least, is God imputing Christ's righteousness to you.  What makes you holy in deed is you being sanctified and conformed to the image of Christ.  Yes, this is something you participate in.  However, you could not do it apart from the grace of God.  It is not your will power that enables you to put off the old man.  It is God's grace. 

    I didn't say that it couldn't be entered.  I said that it will not be entered in this life.  IOW, it is the striving for sinlessness that makes us people after God's own heart.  Sometimes we are given the grace by God to respond in godliness, sometimes we are not.  That doesn't change our responsibility. 

    Like I said, show me anyone, alive or dead, aside from Jesus who did not sin.  Sanctification is like walking towards a mountain.  The closer you get the bigger it seems.  Paul, at the height of his ministry called himself a "wretched man."  Why do you think that is?  Is it because he sinned more than he did when he was killing Christians?  No.  It's because the closer we get to God the more of ourselves we recognize as sinful and the more we look at it the way God does.  We hate it.  We loathe it.  We desire to cast it off.  And we will, when we are glorified.

     :(   Okay man.  When you think of someone who is still alive and has completely stopped sinning then let me know.  Until that time I'm going to go with the Truth.

    Who said it didn't matter? :scratch:  Certainly not I.

    Because He is holy.  What's He going to say, "Hey endure, I know you're tryin' real hard and that's cool.  Do your best."  You know what would happen?  People's "best" would get less and less measured against the example of Christ and more and more looked at as "well, this is my best."  No.  We should always compare our behavior to the Word of God.  If it doesn't measure up, keep striving for holiness.

    No offense man but I'm sure there are still plenty of willing sins too.

    Outstanding.  And praise God for that.  That's fantastic.  Keep striving to be as Christ.  But when you fall short are you going to cry out "Oh wretched man that I am who will deliver me" and know that the answer to that is Jesus Christ or are you going to rely on your ability to put off sin and make up for your sinfulness?

    God hates ALL sin, blatant or not.

    Okay bro.  I think you are deluding yourself but I wish you the best.

    It's cool bro.  I truly have enjoyed reading your post.  I admire your zeal and your trust in the Lord. :clap:

    God bless
     
  20. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    No.  Paul said he had been set free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2).  He said he saw, since he had been saved, another law at work in his members and that was the law of sin (notice, no "and death."  The reason is because, for someone who is saved, there is no sin leading to death.)

    I can't say I know of no one who has stopped sinning but you are perfectly comfortable saying that we can completely stop sinning in this life, though you can't name anyone aside from Jesus who has done so?  Sorry man, that doesn't make any sense.  We are not saved because we stop sinning.  We are saved because Christ atoned for all of our sins and we are forgiven of the guilt and penalty for them.

    Paul was justified.  "Justified" does not mean "without sin."  "Justified" means to be pronounced just.  Thanks be to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that we are pronounced just due to His atoning work.

    Of course He gives us the provision to completely stop sinning.  We just will not receive it until we are with Him.  It's called glorification. 

    I never said we aren't commanded to do so.  Read my posts bro.

    No, no, no.  Our salvation is given to us by the grace of God based on the counsel of His own will.    I never said don't strive to be holy in your works.  I never said our works don't matter.  I never said they aren't required.  I just said they aren't required for salvation. 

    I never said God was okay with it.

    Now you're talking about two entirely different things.  The unsaved lives a life of sin.  Every thought, action, inclination, belief, etc is based in their sinfulness and thus, is sinful.  The saved can be disobedient.  The saved can live a lifestyle of sin.  For the saved it is an issue of disobedience that will be dealt with by God.  He will not deal with that by removing the atoning work of Christ.  He will not deal with that by withdrawing His Spirit.

    Uh...okay.  That was Jesus.  I never disputed the fact that Christ fulfilled the Law. 

    "Walking according to the Spirit" is not being spiritual.  It means that the Spirit of God resides in you. 

    This is very saddening.  The reason you will "see the Lord" isn't because you have been changed into a creation that keeps the Law.  It's because Jesus earned that for you.  That is not to say that you won't be changed.  You will.  But that change isn't what makes you see the Lord.

    God "sees" you as holy because He has given you the credit for Jesus' righteousness.  I never said we don't have to stop sinning.  Again, that is an issue of obligation, an issue of responsibility.  As long as you are alive you retain your old nature along with your new nature.  God did this for a reason.  The struggle of the flesh (old nature) against the spirit (new nature) is what conforms you to the image of His Son.  It's what causes you to have a godly character. 

    Of course.  What do you do when you see someone who is a Christian sin?  Do you think, "He/She must not be a Christian."  I sure hope not.  We (Christians) are known by our lifestyles and actions.  We trust in God and have determined to live our lives according to His truth.  Being someone who still occasionally sins doesn't change that.  Even if you get to the point where you are only committing one sin, it is your desire to overcome that that shows your heart to be like Christ's.

    endure, I never said "sinful lives."  I said "sin."

    They were of the devil because they did not desire to put off their sinfulness.  Do you do things that are ungodly?  Are you a man of God?  I am talking about sinning, not living a lifestyle of sin.

    God bless
     
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