By grace or works???

[jayebrownlee]

Last night my finacé and I were talking and he posed the question

"we are saved by grace, not works, and yet there are lots of rules/laws that we are supposed to obey, why?"

I put to him that although we are saved by grace that we should still try to obey these rules and laws for at least these two reasons.

One is that we obey them to say thank you to God for paying the ultimate sacrifice for us. An analgy could be that if your friend noticed a man was about to shoot you and then they knocked the gun out of the mans hands, you would be eternilly grateful for that act and you might say to your friend what can I do to show my thanks. If they said I want you to turn round 6 times and touch your toes you might not understand why they would want you to do that but at the same time you would if you could.

The other reason that I gave is that God loves us and therefiore any 'rules' that are put in place are for our own good, again we may not understand why that this rule is for our greater good, but at the same time we should have faith that it is. All the time scientists are proving this, such as the resaerch that proved that it can be psychologically damaging to have sexual relations outside fo marriage.

Can anyone else think of other reasons, or do you think that just about covers it?

Your sister in Christ

Jay

 

[stephen1964]

Jay,
If you went to COE yesterday, you probably heard Matt 25: 31-46 ("Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.' ). My men's bible study group had a quite a discussion on whether this suggested works over grace.
The way I read it, works naturally flow from us when we are right with God. We are drawn to Him and want to know His will for us. As you said, this could be gratitude for the sacrifice He made on our behalf. All I know is that I am much happier when I feel my life is in accord with what God wants. Also see James 2: 14-25.

 

[jayebrownlee]

sorry I am probably just being a wee bit slow but is COE Church of England??

 

[stephen1964]

Yes. Church Of England.

 

[jayebrownlee]

Ah well, I was at church of Scotland yesterday, so no.

 

[ZiSunka]

"we are saved by grace, not works, and yet there are lots of rules/laws that we are supposed to obey, why?"

We are not saved by obeying the rules, we are saved by our faith in God, through Christ. Faith means that we believe that He is who He says He is and that His character causes Him to be faithful to His word. His word says that we can have access and peace with God because of what Christ did on the cross. If you believe in that, you are saved.

But we obey because we have faith in Him. If He tells us not to do something, it is because it is harmful, either to us or to others or to the environment or whatever. If He tells us to do something, it is because it is beneficial, to us or to others, etc. In order to have faith, you have to believe in God enough to know that whatever he commands is best for us, even if we don't completely understand why.

Faith is what saves us, but obedience is what shows that we have faith.

 

[stephen1964]

Well said, Lambslove!

 

[jayebrownlee]

I totally agree and if you read my origonal post you will realise that that is what I said. It was my fiancé that was asking the question not me. I was merely asking if people agreed with me or if I was completely off the mark

 

[Outspoken]

"why?""

I think Paul explains this quite nicely in romans

After saying we are saved by Grace Paul then talks to the position of, well what about all these rules that are sin to break. Should we just keep going on and breaking them because we have grace to cover us? Read chapter 6. I think one thing Paul is trying to get across is that we are still to live responsibly and do our best to keep God's law. Why? Because we show other people what Christ showed us. Its like when you turn 21. In Texas that means you can drink. Does this give you licience to get drunk all the time? By no means, because 1. its bad for you and 2. its contrary to the way a christian should live. The "rules" are not there to be "rules" but as guides to point you to a right way to live. You will find that the "right" choice in your life is the way the rules point you to.

 

[DeputyDan]

To me "Works" is how we thank God for what he has already done for us.

The saving has already been done.............

 

[jayebrownlee]

I don't understand why i am being asked to defend my beliefs here, no-one has disagreed with anything I have said and yet people are giving off the impression that I am a lesser Christian for having even posed this question.

My knowledge of the Bible is poor, and I do not deny this, and if anyone takes the time to ask me I will tell you why I find it near impossible to read the Bible and therefore need to find out about it by asking people.

Sorry if this sounds angry but this is not the first thread that this has happened in,

Your sister in Christ

Jay

 

[stephen1964]

Jay,
Please forgive me if I gave the impression of attacking your original post.  I find it a very important question for every Christian and I think we all struggle with this issue.  Foremost, I think we should be wary of the sin of judging others (especially for posing a very insightful question such as your's).  Sorry if I was over-passionate in stating my views;  I assure you it was in a spirit of Christ's love.  Maybe I need to make more use of the emoticons; so here:

-Stephen

 

[jayebrownlee]

Sorry if I overreacted, I think I sometimes feel ashamed of my lack of biblical knowledge and I over-compensate by attacking others. Thank you for your apology, it is accepted whole-heartedly.

Your sister in Christ

Jay

 

[stephen1964]

1 Cor 1:20: "Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? "

I would rather profess my own ignorance of Biblical knowledge, than be tripped up by my own foolish pride! One of the things I like about this web site is the shared knowledge, opinions and experiences of brothers and sisters in Christ. I hope that together we can draw closer to our Lord.
-Stephen

 

[Theresa]

The only place in the entire Bible where faith and alone are put side by side are in this verse:

Jam 2:24 - a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
26 - just as a body without a spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead

Hello!
Theresa

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by jayemcintyre
Last night my finacé and I were talking and he posed the question

"we are saved by grace, not works, and yet there are lots of rules/laws that we are supposed to obey, why?"

I put to him that although we are saved by grace that we should still try to obey these rules and laws for at least these two reasons.

One is that we obey them to say thank you to God for paying the ultimate sacrifice for us. An analgy could be that if your friend noticed a man was about to shoot you and then they knocked the gun out of the mans hands, you would be eternilly grateful for that act and you might say to your friend what can I do to show my thanks. If they said I want you to turn round 6 times and touch your toes you might not understand why they would want you to do that but at the same time you would if you could.

The other reason that I gave is that God loves us and therefiore any 'rules' that are put in place are for our own good, again we may not understand why that this rule is for our greater good, but at the same time we should have faith that it is. All the time scientists are proving this, such as the resaerch that proved that it can be psychologically damaging to have sexual relations outside fo marriage.

Can anyone else think of other reasons, or do you think that just about covers it?

Your sister in Christ

Jay

We are first saved by unmerited Grace. It is a free gift. Keeping our salvation is where works and faith come in together. They can't be separated and wouldnt be possible without grace.

Good questions.

 

[Wonder]

I think you do well in what you speak, (jaye). He gave us salvation and in turn we love who He is and what He did...so we show our love by doing. Just as He showed His love by doing..
The intructions (laws) we recieve from Him is His gift to us...because He loves us and wants the best for us. It is a part of who He is. Another gift from Him...He is just full of them

 

[MizDoulos]

Moved from Ecclesiology for further discussion here.

 

[eldermike]

Think about something with me. When we speak of works we are speaking of His works, James was not talking about our works, it's His works accomplished through us and by us, it's not our works. The evidence of faith is His work in our lives, not our work for Him. The saved can't be separated from works because it's not them it's God. The point James was making is that saved people are not people who work for God, they are the hands and feet of Christ and are doing His business and not their own business. IMHO, to get confused about this you have to make the issues separate and they are not separate issues. To paraphrase James He said: If you have to tell me you are Christian then there's a problem, I don't believe it.

So, we are saved by grace and works is just not much of an issue.

As some have said: your mileage may vary

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by eldermike
Think about something with me. When we speak of works we are speaking of His works, James was not talking about our works, it's His works accomplished through us and by us, it's not our works. The evidence of faith is His work in our lives, not our work for Him. The saved can't be separated from works because it's not them it's God. The point James was making is that saved people are not people who work for God, they are the hands and feet of Christ and are doing His business and not their own business. IMHO, to get confused about this you have to make the issues separate and they are not separate issues. To paraphrase James He said: If you have to tell me you are Christian then there's a problem, I don't believe it.

So, we are saved by grace and works is just not much of an issue.

As some have said: your mileage may vary

Nicely said my brother.  I completely agree.

God bless