Bush acknowledges secret CIA prisons

[Sycophant]

I don't know what to think of the secret prisons. If it helps capture high level terrorists then they may be necessary. No one has proof any wrongdoing was done.

No one will ever convince me captured terrorists are protected under the Geneva Convention. Countries signed the GC, not terrorists unless someone can prove otherwise.

Giving terrorists so much latitude is why most observers feel Hezbollah "won" the war last month. Israel had to stop bombing for the good of the terrorists & their shields aka Lebanese citizens.

I understand the sentiment - I really do.

But, without knowing these prisons exist, who they hold, and without allowing those people any rights to a fair trial or legal representation then who is to say they are terrorists at all.

An account of a person being dragged into this system and held without representation has already been posted. And it is not an entirely issolated event - I can recall at least two other similar accounts, and that's just ones that I've seen.

As it is, a number of unknown individuals act as judge, jury and executioner for these people. They may be terrorists. Or they may not be, but we'll never know, unless whoever is in charge chooses to release them for whatever reason they see fit.

 

[mwb]

It will never be perfect.

It seems the problem is that these people are terrorists. They are not working for their country. They are working for an terrorist organization. Since terrorist organizations are not recognized, these people are basically criminals working on their own. If they were fighting for a country, once the country stops fighting, the prisoners would stop fighting & could be released. The terrorists will probably never stop.

There is no precedent on how to handle them. Logically, they would have a trial but I'm not sure how it would be handled under international law. There may not even be a court established that could do the job.

If there were secret prisons during peacetime, then I would be concerned. If there was wiretapping of average Americans during peacetime, then I would be concerned. During wartime, especially a complex war against an unconventional enemy without borders, drastic measures must be taken. I hope it is done correctly but I also hope it stops the terrorists.

 

[Brimshack]

So, all a President has to do is tell you we are at war with an unconventional entity and the full extent of your concerns about human rights boils down to is a vague and contradictory "hope."

To say nothing of the increasingly obvious fact that many of the prisoners taken in this war have NOT been treated well. and the fact that many of them are NOT terrorists, not even close.

I'm beginning to understand the appeal of Bush's make it up as you go approach. Since so many people do that when they form their opinions, his own whims don't seem so strange. The fact is that international law does deal with non-uniformed combatants. People could actually address the real laws and the real issues, but it's much more fun to speak as though we already know who is and isn't a terrorist (with no trial), and imagine a good fun world in which Uncle Bush handles it all just like we'd want him to. ...even if we do have to ignore a rape here and a murder there. ...or a completely irrelevent little adventure into a nation with no direct connections to Al Qaida.

 

[Machjo]

What are you talking about?
If these were citizens, then you would have a legitimate point
But these are enemy combatants that weren't caught on US soil and hence do not have the same protections

Oh boy oh boy. I'd better get US citizenship, and my butt inside US soil, ASAP!

 

[Sycophant]

It seems the problem is that these people are terrorists.

Suspected terrorists.

And that's the problem.

Actual terrorists, who commited terrorist acts or planned them (not just took pot shots at US soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan) might not be such a problem. They still shouldn't be dissapeared, but at least they are actual people who have actually commited a crime we can all agree is bad.

But as it is there is not promise that the people being detained secretly are terrorists. They could be farmers, eager reactionary youths, or second-hand car dealers from Germany. They have no options - no recourse.

At the moment it's just Arab looking people, and in other countries. But what if it were Anti-government militant terrorists in the government's sights then it very well could be some Mechanic from Dayton who found himself being interrogated for days at a time.

 

[marshlewis]

Secret prisons exist for one purpose only and that is to hide things from the public. Things that need to be hidden from the public are never for the benifit of that public but for the defence of power from the public.

 

[Machjo]

Please enlighten us then as to the reasons. To me secret prisons sound something coming out of Saddam's old regime or Communist China; never would have guessed that America would have secret prisons.

And here in the PRC things aren't even half as bad as many Americans present it. I have a bookshelf-ful of religious texts. There's a Christian bookshop downtown. But no worries, the downtown two-story building spanning at least twenty sqare metres at its base is well hidden. When the cops pass by, they grab their shovels and bury it. They dig it out again after the cop car leaves.

We also have a mosque, two churches, at least one Buddhist temple, plenty of Muslim restaurants, and a good handful of Buddhist ones. But of course they're all clandestine. We all know how easy it is to hide a building with a big cross sitting atop it right?

And all the monks. Well, they transform into Clark Kents when the cops pass by.

then we have the local Christian fellowship and Bible studies. Again, they're so clandestine that the name cards they give out are only in two languages (Chinese and English), and give no more than the names of the hosts and their phone numbers, location and how to get there along with meeting times. I mean after all, imagine if the cops got a hold of those name cards! We wouldn't want too much information on there now, would we.

Trust me, China is far less 'communist' than some would like to think.

 

[Machjo]

I understand the sentiment - I really do.

But, without knowing these prisons exist, who they hold, and without allowing those people any rights to a fair trial or legal representation then who is to say they are terrorists at all.

An account of a person being dragged into this system and held without representation has already been posted. And it is not an entirely issolated event - I can recall at least two other similar accounts, and that's just ones that I've seen.

As it is, a number of unknown individuals act as judge, jury and executioner for these people. They may be terrorists. Or they may not be, but we'll never know, unless whoever is in charge chooses to release them for whatever reason they see fit.

Yeah, and some of those who were eventually released want to sue the CIA. And when they speak out about their treatment, they give the US a bad name, making it look like we mistreated them or something (ok, we did, but that's beside the point). Now we've got a war on terra to fight, and can't afford such misfits to ruin the PR of the war on terrism.

In one article I'd read, when the captors (i.e. CIA) released the guy, they'd clearly asked him to keep his mouth shut. And what does he do? he wants to sue and tells all the newspapers! You see, these guys just have no repsect fer America! The CIA should have never released him. You see, when the CIA admits of a mistake and releases the guy, he then goes out and gives them a bad name.

So definitely, once arrested by the CIA, they ought to all be shot, whether they are married and have 5 kids is irrelevent, whether they are innocent is irrelevent. That way we can keep the secret prisons secret and continue the war on terra.

Besides, it's not like they were citizens or anything. My oh my, since when do we treat non-citizens as euals, let alone humans? Gee, America's getting way too soft in my opinion.

I think it's time for me to join the Republican party and get a tattoo on my arm: 'em then shoot 'em!

 

[Machjo]

Secret prisons exist for one purpose only and that is to hide things from the public. Things that need to be hidden from the public are never for the benifit of that public but for the defence of power from the public.

It's called protecting the public from themselves.

'em then shoot 'em! That's what I say!

Vote Republican!

 

[marshlewis]

Only a short time ago the same people who are now arguing that torture and secret prisons are justifiable were bitterly attacking any suggestion of there very existance as an anti-American slur.
Is this better or worse do you think?.

 

[Machjo]

Only a short time ago the same people who are now arguing that torture and secret prisons are justifiable were bitterly attacking any suggestion of there very existance as an anti-American slur.
Is this better or worse do you think?.

Oh come on, lighten up. These prisons create jobs for Americans. Stop taking things so seriously and look at the bright side. You see, you have to look at the cup as half full, not half empty. You always look at the negatives of the situation instead of the positives.

1. These secret prisons create jobs and give the CIA some valuable trainin'.

2. Some terrists will spill the beans on planned attacks while under tortu... I mean, alternative interrogation methods. Now whether these attackes were genuine or just any old story said under torture to tell the CIA what they thought the CIA wanted to hear is beside the point.

3. Population control. If some of these people die, innocent or not (as a post above mentionned, if they drown they're innnocent, and if not they're guilty, that's life), then it reduces the burden on our fragile ecosystem.

So like I said, start looking at the bright side of life.

 

[PastorMikeJ]

YOu are quite literally advocating murder Mike. Congratulations.

or eye for an eye...thank you I am glad that you understand...take no prisoners...

 

[PastorMikeJ]

Problem: Prisoners are being held without having been tried. We don't know if they're innocent or guilty.

Solution: Give them the death sentence.

no!!! don't take them as prisoners in the first place...dead terrorist are dead terrorist...captured terrorist are suspected terrorist.. a good terrorist is a dead terrorist...

 

[PastorMikeJ]

geneva conventions only cover nations that have signed them...so if your country hasn't signed them you are tough out of luck...

 

[Machjo]

or eye for an eye...thank you I am glad that you understand...take no prisoners...

Exactly! Shoot 'em before they have a chance to sue. Because if they sue, it comes out of your tax dollars!

'em then shoot 'em!

 

[Machjo]

geneva conventions only cover nations that have signed them...so if your country hasn't signed them you are tough out of luck...

My sentiments exavtly. if your country hasn't singed on, then sucks to be you!

And if it had, well... we should still shoot 'im to keep 'im from suing.

 

[marshlewis]

no!!! don't take them as prisoners in the first place...dead terrorist are dead terrorist...captured terrorist are suspected terrorist.. a good terrorist is a dead terrorist...

A dead bystander is a suspected terrorist. Blah blah yeah we get it. Give the lethal results of your policy harmless or misleading euphanisims so we can all sleep better at night.

 

[marshlewis]

geneva conventions only cover nations that have signed them...so if your country hasn't signed them you are tough out of luck...

Countries that signed the treaty are bound by it not protected by it. The USA has signed it.

 

[soblessed53]

.

 

[Maxwell511]

There is no precedent on how to handle them.

Cos terrorist organisations never existed before?

Logically, they would have a trial but I'm not sure how it would be handled under international law.

Hint: Every country in the world has national laws against murder and conspiracy to commit murder.