Burning the Koran bad?

vortigen84

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And as an enormously costly part of them giving up that lifestyle. There's no hint that it's done as a cheap symbolic way of offending others as would be the case with Quran burning, nor that anyone in question regarded them as semi-divine.

Are you presuming the US military burned those Korans as some kind of symbolic gesture? If so, that's your prejudice. What proof do you have that this was the case? It may have been, but then they also could have just been taking care of the rubbish. So I will not share your presumption.

Regardless, the US was burning its own property, so there was no right for those Afghanis to complain. They were acting as if something sacred was desecrated, hence my comment about idols.

So did the US do wrong? The difference between right and wrong is not subjective or cultural; it is found in the Bible. So with regards to that Biblical principle which commands striving to be at peace with all, the answer is: probably.

The US may not have deliberately aimed to offend the Afghanis (like you seem to imply), but if they were striving to keep the peace they would have realized the offence such an act could cause. Were they doing it as a symbolic gesture for all to see? Or were they rather trying to be inconspicuous about it? If the latter, it would seem unwise to the point of being negligent with regards to that Biblical principle.
 
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ebia

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wiremu.white said:
Are you presuming the US military burned those Korans as some kind of symbolic gesture?
Not as such - rather commenting on any justification for burning Qurans as made by the OP for instance.

As for whoever was responsible for this - they have demonstrated either incredible incompetence or deliberate offense.



Regardless, the US was burning its own property, so there was no good right for those Afghanis to complain. They were acting as if something sacred was desecrated, hence my comment about idols.
Since when was property rights the only thing one is allowed to defend. Talk about a consumer mentality!
The US may not have deliberately aimed to offend the Afghanis (like you seem to imply), but if they were striving to keep the peace they would likely have realized the offence such an act could cause. Were they doing it as a symbolic gesture for all to see? Or were they trying to be inconspicuous about it?
Given that US personnel at Bagram have deliberately descrated Qurans to offend Muslim prisoners, I'm not so sure that deliberate offense is out of the question here.
 
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dad

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Are you presuming the US military burned those Korans as some kind of symbolic gesture? If so, that's your prejudice. What proof do you have that this was the case? It may have been, but then they also could have just been taking care of the rubbish. So I will not share your presumption.

Regardless, the US was burning its own property, so there was no right for those Afghanis to complain. They were acting as if something sacred was desecrated, hence my comment about idols.

So did the US do wrong? The difference between right and wrong is not subjective or cultural; it is found in the Bible. So with regards to that Biblical principle which commands striving to be at peace with all, the answer is: probably.

The US may not have deliberately aimed to offend the Afghanis (like you seem to imply), but if they were striving to keep the peace they would have realized the offence such an act could cause. Were they doing it as a symbolic gesture for all to see? Or were they rather trying to be inconspicuous about it? If the latter, it would seem unwise to the point of being negligent with regards to that Biblical principle.
I guess the big issue is whether the people that are willing to kill those burning a book are strong enough to be feared.
 
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ebia

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dad said:
I guess the big issue is whether the people that are willing to kill those burning a book are strong enough to be feared.

Why? Because might makes right?
Feared by whom and how directly, anyway?
The TTT have no aims outside Afghanistan, but a destabilized Afghanistan leads to a destabilized Pakistan, and that's quite a different kettle of fish - the TTP are very different to the TTT and Pakistan has nuclear weapons.
 
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WinBySurrender

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Not as such - rather commenting on any justification for burning Qurans as made by the OP for instance.

As for whoever was responsible for this - they have demonstrated either incredible incompetence or deliberate offense.
Only in the minds of apologists for the enemy, apparently. What part of "US property" do you not understand? What part of "defiled and defaced" do you not understand? What part of "terrorist insurrection" do you not understand? :doh:
 
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vortigen84

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Why? Because might makes right?

If morality is as subjective as you suggested, then why not?

But the difference between right and wrong is not relative to culture but rather to God's standards, which among other things demand that we strive to live at peace with all men.
 
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ebia

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WinBySurrender said:
Only in the minds of apologists for the enemy, apparently. What part of "US property" do you not understand?
I haven't seen anyone demonstrate that they were US property, but it's a strawman argument anyway - the perceived offense is not one of damage to property.

What part of "defiled and defaced" do you not understand? What part of "terrorist insurrection" do you not understand? :doh:
Red-herrings.
 
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A flipping book? You guys consider the Bible the same thing as Jesus Christ. The "Word of God". Is the Bible just a flippin book?

Just because you reject Islam, doesn't mean they don't exalt the Koran to the same level as you view the Bible.

In the ancient days of Israel, there were many other religions being practiced throughout Caanan. Asherah poles, fires to Moloch, Altars of Ba'al... and what did our God, who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" say about the worship of other gods?

Exodus 20:2-3 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before"

What did He command His people to do about these abominations, when they encountered them? What did He command Gideon to do to his father's altar and Asherah pole?

Judges 6:25 "...pull down the altar of Baal that your father has, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it"

What did the prophet Elijah say to the people about their worship of Ba'al, when he stood on Mount Carmel?

How can it be that so many people who write in on this forum do not see Islam for what it is: A worship of a false God no different at all from the false systems practiced in the ancient days! Is there no understanding? Didn't Jesus rebuke His disciples saying: "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" - Luke 12:51, Matthew 10:34.

The AntiChrist comes proclaiming peace, and those who follow him are promised the same fate he is. A hard truth, but truth none-the-less. The gospel offends, the gospel is anathema to Satan - the ruler of the present age - and consequently it's proclamation will bring condemnation; but he who endures to the end will be saved. Qu'rans should be burned; they are full of the poisonous and vile lies of the enemy.
 
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A flipping book? You guys consider the Bible the same thing as Jesus Christ. The "Word of God". Is the Bible just a flippin book?

Just because you reject Islam, doesn't mean they don't exalt the Koran to the same level as you view the Bible.

In the ancient days of Israel, there were many other religions being practiced throughout Caanan. Asherah poles, fires to Moloch, Altars of Ba'al... and what did our God, who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" say about the worship of other gods?

Exodus 20:2-3 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before"

What did He command His people to do about these abominations, when they encountered them? What did He command Gideon to do to his father's altar and Asherah pole?

Judges 6:25 "...pull down the altar of Baal that your father has, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it"

What did the prophet Elijah say to the people about their worship of Ba'al, when he stood on Mount Carmel?

How can it be that so many people who write in on this forum do not see Islam for what it is: A worship of a false God no different at all from the false systems practiced in the ancient days! Is there no understanding? Didn't Jesus rebuke His disciples saying: "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" - Luke 12:51, Matthew 10:34.

The AntiChrist comes proclaiming peace, and those who follow him are promised the same fate he is. A hard truth, but truth none-the-less. The gospel offends, the gospel is anathema to Satan - the ruler of the present age - and consequently it's proclamation will bring condemnation; but he who endures to the end will be saved. Qu'rans should be burned; they are full of the poisonous and vile lies of the enemy.
 
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dad

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Why? Because might makes right?
No, because bullies and terrorists are not what makes good men do stuff generally.


Feared by whom and how directly, anyway?
Well if you burn korans in your backyard, will you fear?
The TTT have no aims outside Afghanistan, but a destabilized Afghanistan leads to a destabilized Pakistan, and that's quite a different kettle of fish - the TTP are very different to the TTT and Pakistan has nuclear weapons.

The threats on people who do not value the things of fundamentalist folks that want to kill others are not restricted to one country.
 
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ebia

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dad said:
No, because bullies and terrorists are not what makes good men do stuff generally.

Well if you burn korans in your backyard, will you fear?

The threats on people who do not value the things of fundamentalist folks that want to kill others are not restricted to one country.

I didn't follow a word of that. Maybe back up a step and clarify what it is you are trying to say.
 
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ebia

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NeitherFirstnorLast said:
In the ancient days of Israel, there were many other religions being practiced throughout Caanan. Asherah poles, fires to Moloch, Altars of Ba'al... and what did our God, who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" say about the worship of other gods?

Exodus 20:2-3 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before"

What did He command His people to do about these abominations, when they encountered them? What did He command Gideon to do to his father's altar and Asherah pole?

Judges 6:25 "...pull down the altar of Baal that your father has, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it"

What did the prophet Elijah say to the people about their worship of Ba'al, when he stood on Mount Carmel?
God's instructions were about worship within Israel. He didn't send his people into other people's lands to tear down their gods.


How can it be that so many people who write in on this forum do not see Islam for what it is: A worship of a false God no different at all from the false systems practiced in the ancient days!
Because that's no more than anti-Islamic propaganda that is beside the point anyway.


Qu'rans should be burned; they are full of the poisonous and vile lies of the enemy.
To what goal? The only outcome is to increase hatred. Burning books ceased to be anything more than an empty symbolic act with the invention of the printing press. In this case it becomes a symbolic act of hatred and aggression in the name of "peace".
 
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ebia

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dad said:
I say people that threaten other people for burning books are bullies.

In general I would agree. So are soldiers who take a prisoner's Quran and urinate on it in front of him.

When it's the disenfranchised or de-powered that are the aggressors, however, bullying is generally the wrong category.
 
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Catherineanne

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Not me. I would not condone killing hordes of people or even one over burning a bible. I have thrown a few older ones out. Civilized behavior should be considered. The world tires of savages.

Fwiw, the appropriate way to dispose of a Bible that is worn out and no longer fit for use, and which has no intrinsic value, is to either bury it (preferably in a churchyard, but anywhere will do) or to burn it. Either of these are acceptable ways to treat something that is holy and which has served its purpose. A Bible should never be simply put into a rubbish bin, although offering it to a charity shop is fine.

The Jews burned sacrifices to God all the time. Burning In Judeo Christian belief does not denote destruction; it denotes offering to God.

Moslems may have other ideas, of course, particularly in relation to the Koran. However, the only true Koran is one written in Arabic. Every Bible is a Bible; even a children's version. Not every Koran is a Koran.

If these books that were burned in Afghanistan were Afghan translations of the Koran, then they do not have the holy status of the Koran itself. And if they did happen to be Arabic, then they ought not to have been defaced by the prisoners concerned; that is not appropriate behaviour for a Moslem.
 
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ebia

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Catherineanne said:
Fwiw, the appropriate way to dispose of a Bible that is worn out and no longer fit for use, and which has no intrinsic value, is to either bury it (preferably in a churchyard, but anywhere will do) or to burn it. Either of these are acceptable ways to treat something that is holy and which has served its purpose. A Bible should never be simply put into a rubbish bin, although offering it to a charity shop is fine.

The Jews burned sacrifices to God all the time. Burning In Judeo Christian belief does not denote destruction; it denotes offering to God.

Moslems may have other ideas, of course, particularly in relation to the Koran. However, the only true Koran is one written in Arabic. If these books that were burned in Afghanistan were Afghan translations of the Koran, then they do not have the same holy status. And if they did happen to be Arabic, then they ought not to have been defaced by the prisoners concerned; that is not appropriate behaviour for a Moslem.

They will have been in Arabic, not Pashtun.

If its not in Arabic then it's not, of course, even a Quran but "an interpretation of the Quran". The emphasis on reading it in Arabic is overwhelming in Afghanistan and NWFP.
 
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dad

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Fwiw, the appropriate way to dispose of a Bible that is worn out and no longer fit for use, and which has no intrinsic value, is to either bury it (preferably in a churchyard, but anywhere will do) or to burn it. Either of these are acceptable ways to treat something that is holy and which has served its purpose. A Bible should never be simply put into a rubbish bin, although offering it to a charity shop is fine.
So you make up rules. OK. Hope you don't think anyone obeys them.
The Jews burned sacrifices to God all the time. Burning In Judeo Christian belief does not denote destruction; it denotes offering to God.
Who cares? I say bring the marshmallows and wine and let's fire some books up.
Moslems may have other ideas, of course, particularly in relation to the Koran. However, the only true Koran is one written in Arabic. Every Bible is a Bible; even a children's version. Not every Koran is a Koran.
That is their problem. Like I care?
If these books that were burned in Afghanistan were Afghan translations of the Koran, then they do not have the holy status of the Koran itself. And if they did happen to be Arabic, then they ought not to have been defaced by the prisoners concerned; that is not appropriate behaviour for a Moslem.
Yeah yeah. Everything ought to be in a nice little way that you like. So how do you cope with the reality it is nothing like that?
 
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Ave Maria

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A flipping book? You guys consider the Bible the same thing as Jesus Christ. The "Word of God". Is the Bible just a flippin book?

Just because you reject Islam, doesn't mean they don't exalt the Koran to the same level as you view the Bible.

The Bible is not the same thing as Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God the Bible is not. The Bible is the inspired word of God but it is not God.
 
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Catherineanne

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So you make up rules. OK. Hope you don't think anyone obeys them.

I don't make anything up. I just remind people of the rules that already exist; whether they choose to follow those rules is up to them.

Yeah yeah. Everything ought to be in a nice little way that you like. So how do you cope with the reality it is nothing like that?

My reality is as I describe. I don't worry about anyone else's. Why should I? :)
 
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Catherineanne

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They will have been in Arabic, not Pashtun.

If its not in Arabic then it's not, of course, even a Quran but "an interpretation of the Quran". The emphasis on reading it in Arabic is overwhelming in Afghanistan and NWFP.

Well if they were in Arabic, then they ought not to have been disrepected or burned. But if they were defaced first by their owners, then that is the greater sin, and that is the reason for them being destroyed.

It is asking a lot of our armed forces to put their lives in danger every day from those who would not hesitate to kill them, and at the same time to show restraint in relation to Islamic holy texts, particularly when already defaced.
 
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