Britian leaving EU?

[Open Heart]

Help me understand this. Why is Britian considering leaving the EU? And why would the US care one way or another?

 

[Bethany35]

From what I understand the Brexit- leave EU campaign says that we put more money in than we get anything out. This isn't actually true at all, we would be quite impoverished to leave Europe imo.
I don't know why Obama has an interest in us staying in Europe though.

 

[Philip C]

For me it's all about democracy. There is a democratically elected European Parliament (I personally know someone who is a member) but laws and policy are all set by the European Commission which is made up of bureaucrats appointed by ministers from the various countries within the EU. The Parliament can alter Commission legislation and make recommendations to the Commission but it cannot outright refuse to pass legislation put forward by the Commission. As 60-80% of legislation in various EU countries originates from the EU Commission it means that the majority of legislation throughout the whole of Europe is now being determined by an unelected body. Frankly I find this pretty disturbing and regardless of financial considerations I think it is important that UK leaves the EU as soon as possible. I also find it disturbing that Barak Obama is supporting UK remaining part of this unelected body - Let's be honest what would happen in USA if 60-80% of new legislation was determined by unelected bureaucrats that no one voted for and so can't be voted out either?

 

[Bethany35]

For me it's all about democracy. There is a democratically elected European Parliament (I personally know someone who is a member) but laws and policy are all set by the European Commission which is made up of bureaucrats appointed by ministers from the various countries within the EU. The Parliament can alter Commission legislation and make recommendations to the Commission but it cannot outright refuse to pass legislation put forward by the Commission. As 60-80% of legislation in various EU countries originates from the EU Commission it means that the majority of legislation throughout the whole of Europe is now being determined by an unelected body. Frankly I find this pretty disturbing and regardless of financial considerations I think it is important that UK leaves the EU as soon as possible. I also find it disturbing that Barak Obama is supporting UK remaining part of this unelected body - Let's be honest what would happen in USA if 60-80% of new legislation was determined by unelected bureaucrats that no one voted for and so can't be voted out either?

do you know how much of our business in Britain depends on Europe? Or how much we gain from them? When Thatcher changed the laws for EU entry in 1978 she actually made it harder for us

 

[Philip C]

Do you know how much of our business in Britain depends on Europe? Or how much we gain from them? When Thatcher changed the laws for EU entry in 1978 she actually made it harder for us

Firstly to presume that the EU will stop dealing with UK post Brexit is just scaremongering. Norway & Switzerland both trade happily with the EU without being members (as do other countries) so why can't we? Also we import more from EU than we export to EU so why do you think EU would want to lose out on the UK market?

Secondly why should UK (or any other country for that matter) voluntarily give up democracy to be run by unelected bureaucrats who we can't get rid of? Considering how hard people around the world have had to fight to achieve democracy and what Europe itself had to go through to achieve it, it just seems crazy to now almost treat it as if money is more important (albeit as I've already said the economic argument is something of a red herring).

 

[Bethany35]

Firstly to presume that the EU will stop dealing with UK post Brexit is just scaremongering. Norway & Switzerland both trade happily with the EU without being members (as do other countries) so why can't we? Also we import more from EU than we export to EU so why do you think EU would want to lose out on the UK market?

Secondly why should UK (or any other country for that matter) voluntarily give up democracy to be run by unelected bureaucrats who we can't get rid of? Considering how hard people around the world have had to fight to achieve democracy and what Europe itself had to go through to achieve it, it just seems crazy to now almost treat it as if money is more important (albeit as I've already said the economic argument is something of a red herring).

Actually those "bureaucrats" provide a lot for Britain. No one is saying that we have to use the euro-currency as well.
But here are some things the bureaucrats have sorted for the british population- sick leave, paid holidays, maternity leave, women's rights in the workplace and job seeking support.

 

[Philip C]

Actually those "bureaucrats" provide a lot for Britain. No one is saying that we have to use the euro-currency as well.
But here are some things the bureaucrats have sorted for the british population- sick leave, paid holidays, maternity leave, women's rights in the workplace and job seeking support.

And who's to say we wouldn't have had those things anyway (incidentally the Equal Pay Act came in in 1970 before we joined EU). But it's ultimately not about that. The big question is this: Do you want to live in a democracy where you get to chose who runs the country and you can vote them out after a few years if you don't like what they do OR do you want to be a part of a superstate run by unelected officials who no one voted for and no one can get rid of if we don't like what they do?

 

[Pwnerer]

Firstly to presume that the EU will stop dealing with UK post Brexit is just scaremongering. Norway & Switzerland both trade happily with the EU without being members (as do other countries) so why can't we? Also we import more from EU than we export to EU so why do you think EU would want to lose out on the UK market?

Secondly why should UK (or any other country for that matter) voluntarily give up democracy to be run by unelected bureaucrats who we can't get rid of? Considering how hard people around the world have had to fight to achieve democracy and what Europe itself had to go through to achieve it, it just seems crazy to now almost treat it as if money is more important (albeit as I've already said the economic argument is something of a red herring).

Actually those "bureaucrats" provide a lot for Britain. No one is saying that we have to use the euro-currency as well.
But here are some things the bureaucrats have sorted for the british population- sick leave, paid holidays, maternity leave, women's rights in the workplace and job seeking support.

"Bureaucrats" is capitalist propaganda term for Our Country's Great Leaders and Servants. These Servants have gloriously moved The People forward and given us many things that distinguish us as an advanced nation. Things like sick leave, women's rights, and The People's Burger

 

[Bethany35]

I think what EU has done for Britain is best described in this video
https://www.facebook.com/guardianvideo/videos/506861956168239/?fref=nf

 

[Philip C]

I think what EU has done for Britain is best described in this video
https://www.facebook.com/guardianvideo/videos/506861956168239/?fref=nf

Frankly this video is totally misleading and irrelevant as it relates to ECHR NOT EU. Iceland, Russia, Norway & Switzerland have all signed ECHR without being members of EU and there's no reason why UK couldn't do the same. Also the video gives the impression that ECHR is responsible for UK having freedom of expression, right to a fair trial, freedom from torture and slavery, etc, etc. This is totally misleading and pure propaganda - the right to a fair trial, for example, has been part of British law since Magna Carta which was signed in 1215 for goodness sake! To try and give credit to ECHR or EU for this is ridiculous!

 

[Bethany35]

actually no without them we could not have really got any this I would say, nor could we have managed a deal with Ireland that didn't cause major upsets. But you probably won't believe that and should think what you like I guess. Am not going to persuade you against your will. Can I ask you to check more sources though?

 

[Archivist]

Winston Churchill once proposed a union of the English-speaking peoples. Perhaps such a union would be better for all than the UKs continued membership in the EU. I have not researched this, just a thought.

 

[Strong in Him]

A few weeks ago I was all in favour of leaving - for the simple reason that I hate the fact that, sometimes, other people tell us how to run our country. A prisoner is unhappy with their length of sentence or conditions? No problem; appeal to Brussels and someone will tell our judges how to do their jobs. Sorry but that sort of thing's not on; Brussels has no right to interfere in our legal system, tell us how many refugees we should take, or anything else.

That is still my view. But I wanted the Scots to stay in the UK; my view was that they'd be worse off financially if they did leave and were daft to take that risk, they would be voting for the unknown.
I now feel that we are in the same position re Europe. Can we say for certain what will happen? Might we not vote Brexit to get independence, and get rid of Cameron and then in 6 months time find out that he was right all along?

 

[Philip C]

A few weeks ago I was all in favour of leaving - for the simple reason that I hate the fact that, sometimes, other people tell us how to run our country. A prisoner is unhappy with their length of sentence or conditions? No problem; appeal to Brussels and someone will tell our judges how to do their jobs. Sorry but that sort of thing's not on; Brussels has no right to interfere in our legal system, tell us how many refugees we should take, or anything else.

That is still my view. But I wanted the Scots to stay in the UK; my view was that they'd be worse off financially if they did leave and were daft to take that risk, they would be voting for the unknown.
I now feel that we are in the same position re Europe. Can we say for certain what will happen? Might we not vote Brexit to get independence, and get rid of Cameron and then in 6 months time find out that he was right all along?

I think you've raised some interesting points and having some Scottish family I've thought about it myself a few times albeit from the angle that I can't understand how SNP wants to be independent from UK but still part of EU. Surely if you think it's an anathema to be ruled from London then it ought to be yet more of an anathema to be ruled by unelected officials in Strasbourg who don't even speak English as a first language.

All that said I do feel that England and Scotland share a common language, a common currency, broadly similar history, laws, attitudes and culture and have worked together fairly well for over 300 years for me it would be a shame to lose that. Ultimately though it comes down to democracy. Scotland had a choice to leave the UK if it wanted and now UK has a choice to leave EU if it wants to. For me I want UK to have a good relationship with the rest of Europe and trade openly with Europe. But I don't think we share a common bond in the way that say England and Scotland do so I don't see why having good relations and free trade requires that we have to have a 'United States of Europe'. Also as I've said before the real sticking point is that the EU as it stands is undemocratic and it shows absolutely no intention of changing. Given the choice between living in a democracy or being part of an undemocratic superstate I'll chose democracy every time.

Incidentally you asked a good question - What if we leave and find out six months later David Cameron was right all along? But we also need to put it the other way round too. What if we stay in the EU and six months later find that David Cameron was wrong all along?

 

[Strong in Him]

Good points!
I must admit that I don't know much about the EU - trade, finance, democracy etc, I'm just going with my instinct - though I feel that others might do the same.

I do wonder if Obama has shot himself in the foot though. He wanted to persuade us to vote to stay in the EU, how many people will have heard his words and decide to do the opposite? That was my first thought - why should he tell us what to do?

 

[Catherineanne]

Help me understand this. Why is Britian considering leaving the EU? And why would the US care one way or another?

There is a very good case to make that the EU is a black hole, sucking money out of the UK to pay for roads in Spain & elsewhere. Our contribution to the EU is based on our prosperity; other countries are struggling because of the disaster of the Euro, so we are paying for our own relative stability in ever increasing contributions. Billions of pounds spent for nothing.

Meanwhile, Europe is now suing the UK because we put a toll on foreign lorries using our roads, who otherwise pay nothing at all towards them. This does not feel like a level playing field.

However, I am not myself in favour of leaving, and I do not think that we will actually leave. But I do I think the EU will implode all by itself before too long; it is too big and has no economic stability whatever.

 

[Catherineanne]

Winston Churchill once proposed a union of the English-speaking peoples. Perhaps such a union would be better for all than the UKs continued membership in the EU. I have not researched this, just a thought.

In a sense we have this through the Commonwealth; certainly we could make more of those links.

 

[Catherineanne]

From what I understand the Brexit- leave EU campaign says that we put more money in than we get anything out. This isn't actually true at all, we would be quite impoverished to leave Europe imo.
I don't know why Obama has an interest in us staying in Europe though.

The UK is the world's 5th largest economy. We will not be impoverished, either way.

 

[Archivist]

In a sense we have this through the Commonwealth; certainly we could make more of those links.

True, but imagine the Commonwealth with the US included.

 

[Bethany35]

and I can't imagine many wanting to leave now Trump backs leaving
(boo yah- side note, awesome at London's first muslim mayor )