LDS Brigham Young and His Blood Atonement

[Jamesone5]

Around 25 years ago, my local County Library had a section devoted to Mormon Journal of Discourses--mainly from sermons of Brigham Young. Then, before resigning my membership in the Mormon Church, I felt I had to really delve deep into what my former Mormon church taught and them pit that information against the Bible and my new-found Faith in what I found to be God's Only Word.

I had heard about the Blood Atonement practice and although the Mormon Church mostly tries to minimize it---it was very much a practice in the late 1800's. And, it still is somewhat practiced today as Ted Bundy and Gary Gilmore, of course chose the firing squad for their methods of execution. It is the only State that gives one that option-btw.

As I had heard from my Mormon mother that if I had lived back in the 1860's, that I might have suffered the Blood Atonement for leaving. So, God led me to investigate as Mormons do not look kindly on someone who becomes, what they refer to as an "apostate Mormon".

What I found back then and what I researched lately is basically the same. There is a reference to spilling of the blood of an apostate in the link below.

www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech20.htm

Although the control factor of Mormons is a lot less now, and if you live in a predominantly Mormon area, like I do, you will suffer a lot of what is referred to as "shunning". That shunning has gotten way less over the years. I was blessedly asked to give the Eulogy at my Mormon mother's funeral after assuring the Bishop that I would not speak on anything that could be construed as doctrinally controversial. I spoke from the Bible, of course. Interesting twist on that, is that God allowed me to be a part on my own mother's finding the True Christ about a week before she passed on after 91 years of being a Mormon.

I no longer get Mormon missionaries at my house as they must have realized it would be futile to try to bring me back. Had a few encounters over the years where the missionaries left frustrated. A lot of Mormons locally that I call friends will talk to me on the street and I generally initiate a conversation. Sometimes that friendliness and love will do more than debating the Bible.

 

[He is the way]

Around 25 years ago, my local County Library had a section devoted to Mormon Journal of Discourses--mainly from sermons of Brigham Young. Then, before resigning my membership in the Mormon Church, I felt I had to really delve deep into what my former Mormon church taught and them pit that information against the Bible and my new-found Faith in what I found to be God's Only Word.

I had heard about the Blood Atonement practice and although the Mormon Church mostly tries to minimize it---it was very much a practice in the late 1800's. And, it still is somewhat practiced today as Ted Bundy, of course chose the firing squad for his method of execution. It is the only State that gives one that option-btw.

As I had heard from my Mormon mother that if I had lived back in the 1860's, that I might have suffered the Blood Atonement for leaving. So, God led me to investigate as Mormons do not look kindly on someone who becomes, what they refer to as an "apostate Mormon".

What I found back then and what I researched lately is basically the same. There is a reference to spilling of the blood of an apostate in the link below.

www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech20.htm

Although the control factor of Mormons is a lot less now, and if you live in a predominantly Mormon area, like I do, you will suffer a lot of what is referred to as "shunning". That shunning has gotten way less over the years. I was blessedly asked to give the Eulogy at my Mormon mother's funeral after assuring the Bishop that I would not speak on anything that could be construed as doctrinally controversial. I spoke from the Bible, of course. Interesting twist on that, is that God allowed me to be a part on my own mother's finding the True Christ about a week before she passed on after 91 years of being a Mormon.

I no longer get Mormon missionaries at my house as they must have realized it would be futile to try to bring me back. Had a few encounters over the years where the missionaries left frustrated. A lot of Mormons locally that I call friends will talk to me on the street and I generally initiate a conversation. Sometimes that friendliness and love will do more than debating the Bible.

From your reference: "In a manuscript written in 1839, Reed Peck said"

What manuscript is this? Who is Reed Peck that I should believe him? How many people were killed due to blood atonement? Only murders would have to worry about this. As for the Journal of Discourses, it is not official church doctrine:

The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It included some doctrinal instruction but also practical teaching, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest.

The content of the Journal of Discourses was transcribed, sometimes inaccurately, and published between 1854 and 1886 in England. The compilation contains some statements of doctrine as well as other materials of interest to Latter-day Saints who lived far from the center of the Church, including speeches given for a variety of occasions, funeral addresses, reports from returning missionaries, prayers, and the proceedings of a trial. The Journal of Discourses was produced under the guidance of those who transcribed the materials, including George D. Watt, David W. Evans, and George W. Gibbs.

Skilled in the use of shorthand, George D. Watt had transcribed many conferences and sermons for the Deseret News. He received little pay for his work. Since the Deseret News was not generally available outside of the United States, Watt proposed to Brigham Young the idea of publishing these materials on a subscription basis. Such a plan would make the materials available to more Saints and allow Watt to earn a living with his work. President Brigham Young supported the plan, and a letter from the First Presidency was included in the first volume encouraging Church members to cooperate in the “purchase and sale” of the journal.

Questions have been raised about the accuracy of some transcriptions. Modern technology and processes were not available for verifying the accuracy of transcriptions, and some significant mistakes have been documented. The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine.

 

[Jamesone5]

From your reference: "In a manuscript written in 1839, Reed Peck said"

What manuscript is this? Who is Reed Peck that I should believe him? How many people were killed due to blood atonement? Only murders would have to worry about this. As for the Journal of Discourses, it is not official church doctrine:

The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It included some doctrinal instruction but also practical teaching, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest.

The content of the Journal of Discourses was transcribed, sometimes inaccurately, and published between 1854 and 1886 in England. The compilation contains some statements of doctrine as well as other materials of interest to Latter-day Saints who lived far from the center of the Church, including speeches given for a variety of occasions, funeral addresses, reports from returning missionaries, prayers, and the proceedings of a trial. The Journal of Discourses was produced under the guidance of those who transcribed the materials, including George D. Watt, David W. Evans, and George W. Gibbs.

Skilled in the use of shorthand, George D. Watt had transcribed many conferences and sermons for the Deseret News. He received little pay for his work. Since the Deseret News was not generally available outside of the United States, Watt proposed to Brigham Young the idea of publishing these materials on a subscription basis. Such a plan would make the materials available to more Saints and allow Watt to earn a living with his work. President Brigham Young supported the plan, and a letter from the First Presidency was included in the first volume encouraging Church members to cooperate in the “purchase and sale” of the journal.

Questions have been raised about the accuracy of some transcriptions. Modern technology and processes were not available for verifying the accuracy of transcriptions, and some significant mistakes have been documented. The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine.

Here is the way it is. Could care less whether you agree with me or not.

Are you going to say my Holy Spirt lied to me? Are you going to say my deceased mother lied to me? [Who, by the way, certainly knew more about Mormon history that you obviously do].And, are you going to claim the original Journal Discourses lied to me?



By the way, you certainly treated the Journal of Discourses as a Mormon source yesterday in another debate---of course once again-- a current one.. Consistency [and in seeking truth] in a Mormon---what a joke.
.

 

[He is the way]

Here is the way it is. Could care less whether you agree with me or not.

Are you going to say my Holy Spirt lied to me? Are you going to say my deceased mother lied to me? [Who, by the way, certainly knew more about Mormon history that you obviously do].And, are you going to claim the original Journal Discourses lied to me?



By the way, you certainly treated the Journal of Discourses as a Mormon source yesterday in another debate---of course once again-- a current one.. Consistency [and in seeking truth] in a Mormon---what a joke.
.

That is because people have taken things out of context when it comes to books like the Journal of Discourses. However the Journal of Discourses is not completely accurate and is not a church publication. The only people I know that were worried about blood atonement were murderers. At any rate posting questionable material is a common flaw made by people that are trying to make a point, and you didn't answer my questions:
What manuscript is this?
Who is Reed Peck that I should believe him?
How many people were killed due to blood atonement?

 

[Jamesone5]

That is because people have taken things out of context when it comes to books like the Journal of Discourses. However the Journal of Discourses is not completely accurate and is not a church publication. The only people I know that were worried about blood atonement were murderers. At any rate posting questionable material is a common flaw made by people that are trying to make a point, and you didn't answer my questions:
What manuscript is this?
Who is Reed Peck that I should believe him?
How many people were killed due to blood atonement?

Are you going to say my Holy Spirt lied to me? Are you going to say my deceased mother lied to me? [Who, by the way, certainly knew more about early Mormon history that you obviously do].And, are you going to claim the original Journal Discourses lied to me?

Ther is only two ways here to go here.

Either I am lying or making things up as well as the people I reference

Or

You should figure the alternative.

 

[He is the way]

Are you going to say my Holy Spirt lied to me? Are you going to say my deceased mother lied to me? [Who, by the way, certainly knew more about early Mormon history that you obviously do].And, are you going to claim the original Journal Discourses lied to me?

Ther is only two ways here to go here.

Either I am lying or making things up as well as all the people I reference

Or

You should figure the alternative.

What I will say is that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is Christ's true church. Nothing you can say will change that.

 

[Jamesone5]

What I will say is that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is Christ's true church. Nothing you can say will change that.

Recite it to yourself a few more times

And , What no ---"I know"?

But then this thread was not about you claim here. it is this:

Brigham Young and His Blood Atonement

 

[Rescued One]

Execution by firing squad was banned in Utah in 2004, but as the ban was not retroactive; three inmates on Utah's death row have the firing squad set as their method of execution.
Execution by firing squad - Wikipedia

The LDS temple rituals formerly provided an example in which capital punishment is contemplated for violations of historical blood oaths in the Endowment ritual. The blood oaths in the ceremony were intended to protect the ritual's secrecy. In keeping with the idea that grievous crimes must be answered with bloodshed and that blood atonement should be voluntary, participants made an oath that rather than ever revealing the secret gestures of the ceremony, they would rather have "my throat ... be cut from ear to ear, and my tongue torn out by its roots"; "our breasts ... be torn open, our hearts and vitals torn out and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field"; "your body ... be cut asunder and all your bowels gush out" showing an entire refusal to accept the promises made in the washing and anointing ordinances. The gory wording was removed early in the 20th century and changed to a less explicit reference to "different ways in which life may be taken." Vestigial accompanying suggestive gestures were removed by the LDS Church in 1990.[25] There are no documented instances of a person who has been killed for violating these oaths of secrecy.
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, was a strong proponent of capital punishment, and favored execution methods that involved the shedding of blood as retribution for crimes of bloodshed. In 1843, he or his scribe commented that the common execution method in Christian nations was hanging, "instead of blood for blood according to the law of heaven."[27] Years before making this remark, however, Smith was quoted as saying that the hanging of Judas Iscariot was not a suicide, but an execution carried out by Saint Peter.[28] In a March 4, 1843 debate with church leader George A. Smith, who argued against capital punishment,[29] Joseph Smith said that if he ever had the opportunity to enact a death penalty law, he "was opposed to hanging" the convict; rather, he would "shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God."[26] In the church's April 6, 1843 general conference, Smith said he would "wring a thief's neck off if I can find him, if I cannot bring him to justice any other way."[30] Sidney Rigdon, Smith's counselor in the First Presidency, also supported capital punishment involving the spilling of blood, stating, "There are men standing in your midst that you can't do anything with them but cut their throat and bury them."[31] On the other hand, Smith was willing to tolerate the presence of men "as corrupt as the devil himself" in Nauvoo, Illinois, who "had been guilty of murder and robbery," in the chance that they might "come to the waters of baptism through repentance, and redeem a part of their allotted time."[32]
Blood atonement - Wikipedia

I remember this:

Gary Mark Gilmore (Faye Robert Coffman) (December 4, 1940 – January 17, 1977) was an American criminal who gained international attention for demanding the implementation of his death sentence for two murders he had admitted to committing in Utah. After the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a new series of death penalty statutes in the 1976 decision Gregg v. Georgia, he became the first person in almost ten years to be executed in the United States.[1] These new statutes avoided the problems under the 1972 decision in Furman v. Georgia, which had resulted in earlier death penalty statutes being deemed as "cruel and unusual" punishment, and therefore unconstitutional. (The Supreme Court had previously ordered all states to commute death sentences to life imprisonment after Furman v. Georgia.) Gilmore was executed by a firing squad in 1977.[2] His life and execution were the subject of the 1979 nonfiction novel The Executioner's Song by Norman Mailer, and 1982 TV film of the novel starring Tommy Lee Jones as Gilmore.
Gary Gilmore (criminal) - Wikipedia


Ronnie Lee Gardner
The execution of Gardner at Utah State Prison became the focus of media attention in June 2010, because it was the first to be carried out by firing squad in the United States in 14 years.[3]Gardner stated that he sought this method of execution because of his Mormon background.[12] On the day before his execution, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement clarifying its position on the issue of blood atonement of individuals.[13] The case also attracted debate over capital punishment and whether Gardner had been destined for a life of violence since his difficult childhood.[14]
Ronnie Lee Gardner - Wikipedia

 

[Rescued One]

What I will say is that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is Christ's true church. Nothing you can say will change that.

Nothing you say will change the fact that it is not a Christian church!

 

[He is the way]

Nothing you say will change the fact that it is not a Christian church!

True Christians LOVE Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[BigDaddy4]

True Christians LOVE Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus LOVES us anyway, despite us not being able to keep the commandments. If we could keep the commandments, then we wouldn't need Jesus, would we?

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:5-6 NIV

 

[Rescued One]

True Christians LOVE Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

OFF-TOPIC!

 

[He is the way]

Jesus LOVES us anyway, despite us not being able to keep the commandments. If we could keep the commandments, then we wouldn't need Jesus, would we?

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:5-6 NIV

The Bible makes it clear that we are to keep the commandments:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:3)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Murder is still a major crime:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 19:10 - 13)

10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.
11 ¶ But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:
12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.
13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

 

[He is the way]

OFF-TOPIC!

Nothing you say will change the fact that it is not a Christian church!

Off topic.

 

[Jamesone5]

The Bible makes it clear that we are to keep the commandments:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:3)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Murder is still a major crime:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 19:10 - 13)

10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.
11 ¶ But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:
12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.
13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

Seems as if you are doing your best to diminish Christ and go back to the OT and are confused whether we should be in the NT or the OT. Deuteronomy is in the OT, by the way.

 

[He is the way]

Seems as if you are doing your best to diminish Christ and go back to the OT and are confused whether we should be in the NT or the OT. Deuteronomy is in the OT, by the way.

So you believe that Deuteronomy is no longer pertinent?:
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 11:13)

13 ¶ And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

(New Testament | Matthew 5:17 - 18)

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Jamesone5]

So you believe that Deuteronomy is no longer pertinent?:
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 11:13)

13 ¶ And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

(New Testament | Matthew 5:17 - 18)

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

No you lens of reading it without Christ is mind is skewed.

12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.

Back to an eye-for- an eye system of Justice without Christ.

You are defending your Blood Atonement thing, are you not?

 

[He is the way]

No you lens of reading it without Christ is mind is skewed.

12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.

Back to an eye-for- an eye system of Justice without Christ.

You are defending your Blood Atonement thing, are you not?

Some inmates who have requested death by firing squad instead of some other way due to their belief that blood atonement may make it possible to atone for their sins. God has made it clear that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and will harden against others. God looks on the heart and is NOT a respecter of persons. God the Father gave to Christ ALL judgment. It is up to Christ to decide who will be saved. The Bible states this:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

There is NO promise to the disobedient. Whether or not they are forgiven will be up to Christ.

 

[Jamesone5]

Some inmates who have requested death by firing squad instead of some other way due to their belief that blood atonement may make it possible to atone for their sins. God has made it clear that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and will harden against others. God looks on the heart and is NOT a respecter of persons. God the Father gave to Christ ALL judgment. It is up to Christ to decide who will be saved. The Bible states this:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

There is NO promise to the disobedient. Whether or not they are forgiven will be up to Christ.

You make no sense. You say---"whether or not people are forgiven is up to Christ". This is True.

But with this Blood Atonement it is up to man on this earth? Or really man who can dictate who and who should not live, as the Blood Atonement really states?

How about adulterers?

Brigham Young proclaimed:

Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands....

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it ... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247

Jesus essentially said that even if you look at woman with lust in your eyes---you have committed adultry in your heart. Wouldn't that decimate all of Mormon men?

What a wacky Religion.

 

[He is the way]

You make no sense. You say---"whether or not people are forgiven is up to Christ". This is True.

But with this Blood Atonement it is up to man on this earth? Or really man who can dictate who and who should not live, as the Blood Atonement really states?

How about adulterers?

Brigham Young proclaimed:

Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands....

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it ... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247

Jesus essentially said that even if you look at woman with lust in your eyes---you have committed adultry in your heart. Wouldn't that decimate all of Mormon men?

What a wacky Religion.

Everyone who does not truly repent of their sins will have to pay for them. God will decide the severity of those sins. And as I have said before the Journal of Discourses is not church doctrine, there may very well be mistakes made in it. Not everything Brigham Young said was proceeded by "thus saith the Lord God." The fact is, the law of Moses was indeed about blood atonement. And as you said: "Jesus essentially said that even if you look at woman with lust in your eyes---you have committed adultry in your heart. Wouldn't that decimate all of Mormon men?" That law applies to everyone. Not just members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. All those guilty of this should repent.