"... breathed into his nostrils THE BREATH OF LIFE..."

[Douglas Hendrickson]

A baby doesn't breathe in the womb that is true. However, a human woman carrying a living being inside her is carrying a living human being. Not a seaturtle or anything other than a human being.
Furthermore, while the baby his or herself do not actually breathe, the mother gives them the breath of life through her own breathing. Which translates through the umbilical cord. The cord of life , as it were.

The first male was dirt before he was formed as a man so as to be given the breath of life by his creator, God.
The mother gives the baby God created in her through the means of human sexual reproduction the breath of life.

If dirt can be created through the power of God and made thus into the image and likeness of God, a human baby is no less created in the image and likeness of their parents through God's grace.
Cutting that living breathing baby out of that womb and stopping their breathing is murder. Being abortion is legal, it is legalized murder. Just like the death penalty, it is the death penalty for the unborn.

By your logic of "the breath of life" through the umbilical chord, the chord of life, so too does a person give LIFE to the cells of a cancer tumor within his/her body. It might, the cancer LIFE, might even be in the womb.

You can say the fetal life is a human being, but that does not make it so. It is like the life of a tumor that can be cut off.

If David is reading this, I agree that the fetus is more organized and especially later may all die at once, and the cancer tumor, it may be difficult to extinguish it. But the distinction gets blurred if the fetus is "only injured."
A critical point is if the fetus is (completely) detached from its HOST it will all die, just like if the tumor is (completely) detached from its HOST, it will all die.

 

[civilwarbuff]

By your logic of "the breath of life" through the umbilical chord, the chord of life, so too does a person give LIFE to the cells of a cancer tumor within his/her body. It might, the cancer LIFE, might even be in the womb.

The difference is a cancer can not be removed from its host without dying and it will never become a human being. Equating a human embryo to a cancer is an atheist tactic; something not befitting a Christian.

 

[civilwarbuff]

A critical point is if the fetus is (completely) detached from its HOST it will all die, just like if the tumor is (completely) detached from its HOST, it will all die.

A fetus, if detached from the mother, MAY die. A tumor detached from a person WILL die....huge difference.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Hi Douglas, this kind of information (that I posited above from the NIH) is part of the reason that our 17 yr old handsome and accomplished son is alive today Seventeen years ago, his single, 18 yr old, birth mom, who was going to abort him, learned what was really inside of her, IOW, that there was a human "life" in her womb, not just a blob of living cells. So she chose the "adoption option" instead (and for what's it worth, she's not a Christian, at least she wasn't back then anyway)

It seems like you may have never looked closely at the scientific facts about all of this. If you do so, especially with an open mind, I promise you that you will be blown away by what you discover We truly are "fearfully and wonderfully made" .. Psalm 139:14.

Just FYI, I know it seems weird in a way, but we begin to count the "9 months" two weeks prior to a woman becoming "pregnant" at the 1) beginning of her menstrual period and then 2) at the release of the ovum into one of her Fallopian Tubes.

Yours and His,
David

I don't think we have to confuse "pregnancy cycles" with pregnancy. There is no pregnancy and no one is pregnant BEFORE intercourse. Ever! (I would think - maybe it's just me?)
Anyway, what you say of your wife, if I may presume that, was IMHO, not much about scientific facts. Sure we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and I think THAT is what was impressed upon her, not some supposed science that supposedly proves "there was a human "life" in her womb." By pointing out there is human life in the womb, and failing to point out that is NOT the same thing as "a human being," I am pretty sure you obscured the issue in the usual "pro-life" way.
Again, just in case you missed that last point, of course there is LIFE in the womb (why abortion is necessary to kill it) and of course that is living human cells, but so too is the gangrened arm that no one would refuse to amputate on the grounds that "it is human life" and "that is the same thing as a human being."

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

A fetus, if detached from the mother, MAY die. A tumor detached from a person WILL die....huge difference.

That is the case if the fetus is old enough, or what is called "viable." Are you willing to abort only before that point?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

The difference is a cancer can not be removed from its host without dying and it will never become a human being. Equating a human embryo to a cancer is an atheist tactic; something not befitting a Christian.

Remove a fetus from it's host early on, and it will surely die. And it will surely never become a human being.

You can accuse me of atheism, or something like that, but that is mostly a personal attack.

I do NOT equate a human embryo to a cancer, I only say that if you use the claim "IT IS HUMAN (cells) and IT IS ALIVE, you can equally say both of those things of either one, but we would NOT use such "scientific observations" (you might want to call them) as reasons for not removing the growth.

 

[mmksparbud]

The fact that blood is in the veins and arteries and being pumped by the heart by age 5 weeks of gestation (and seen on ultrasound), does not constitute life to you what does? Lungs expanding and deflating is life to you? You can be brain dead and a machine can do that. If it tales the brain for you then----

"Generally speaking, the first measurable brain waves can be captured on an electroencephalogram (EEG) around the 12th week of pregnancy."
http://www.answers.com/Q/When_does_a_fetus_have_brain_activity

"What is fascinating is the discovery that the fetus is actively sedated by the low oxygen pressure (equivalent to that at the top of Mount Everest), the warm and cushioned uterine environment and a range of neuroinhibitory and sleep-inducing substances produced by the placenta and the fetus itself: adenosine; two steroidal anesthetics, allopregnanolone and pregnanolone; one potent hormone, prostaglandin D2; and others. The role of the placenta in maintaining sedation is revealed when the umbilical cord is closed off while keeping the fetus adequately supplied with oxygen"
From all this evidence, neonatologists conclude that the fetus is asleep while its brain matures.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/

Are you saying that because a fetus is asleep it is not human yet until it is born and breathes with it's lungs?? A tumor does not produce any brain waves.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The difference is a cancer can not be removed from its host without dying and it will never become a human being. Equating a human embryo to a cancer is an atheist tactic; something not befitting a Christian.

Using word games like this is not really a logical argument.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

You might want to redo that statement because it made no sense at all......

What don't you understand, that something doesn't exist before it exists, i.e. before it is constructed or made?

 

[civilwarbuff]

That is the case if the fetus is old enough, or what is called "viable." Are you willing to abort only before that point?

What makes you believe I am "willing to abort" at any time?

 

[civilwarbuff]

What don't you understand, that something doesn't exist before it exists, i.e. before it is constructed or made?

Please attempt to explain without using metaphyiscal expressions...

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

The fact that blood is in the veins and arteries and being pumped by the heart by age 5 weeks of gestation (and seen on ultrasound), does not constitute life to you what does? Lungs expanding and deflating is life to you? You can be brain dead and a machine can do that. If it tales the brain for you then----

"Generally speaking, the first measurable brain waves can be captured on an electroencephalogram (EEG) around the 12th week of pregnancy."
http://www.answers.com/Q/When_does_a_fetus_have_brain_activity

"What is fascinating is the discovery that the fetus is actively sedated by the low oxygen pressure (equivalent to that at the top of Mount Everest), the warm and cushioned uterine environment and a range of neuroinhibitory and sleep-inducing substances produced by the placenta and the fetus itself: adenosine; two steroidal anesthetics, allopregnanolone and pregnanolone; one potent hormone, prostaglandin D2; and others. The role of the placenta in maintaining sedation is revealed when the umbilical cord is closed off while keeping the fetus adequately supplied with oxygen"
From all this evidence, neonatologists conclude that the fetus is asleep while its brain matures.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/

Are you saying that because a fetus is asleep it is not human yet until it is born and breathes with it's lungs?? A tumor does not produce any brain waves.

Look at the end of post # 36 - I do NOT DENY THAT THERE IS LIFE IN THE WOMB.

The problem is not in determining WHAT IS ALIVE, but in knowing what is a human being.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Using word games like this is not really a logical argument.

????What word games...?????

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

What makes you believe I am "willing to abort" at any time?

Well I don't think you are, but you seem to think whether the fetus is viable makes a big difference.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Genesis 2:7 God life in "man."

Note that Adam (man) was (is) FIRST FORMED,

first has nostrils, and THEN becomes a living soul.

THE BREATH OF LIFE, meaning being a living "MAN" (human being) for God,
COMES ONLY AT BIRTH.

Also, only at birth is there a new being, a new animal being, a new human being. There is a new member of an animal species, including new human animal species MEMBER, only at birth. A new being, a new human being.

One might also infer that the fetus should be considered a viable person from the time it could, if born prematurely, still breath on its own at that point. This would be at about the 6th month, as I recall.

To me, its quite clear that personhood is tied to the brain, and not a simple brain as possessed by the lower animals but a brain on the higher level we associate with humans.

There is such a thing, rarely, as two fertilized eggs that merge and grow into a single adult body. Such a human is said to be a "chemira". Those who maintain there is a soul formed at fertilization of the egg are challenged to explain where the extra soul goes in such a case. It is no problem for the "soul = developed brain" idea, as only one developed brain occurs.

http://www.brighthub.com/science/genetics/articles/39124.aspx

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Please attempt to explain without using metaphyiscal expressions...

"exist" is too big a word?
Look, if you build a house, the house does not exist, there is no house, UNTIL the house is built.
So too the "human house" that is built inside a woman's womb.

A few boards or even a foundation do NOT constitute an actual house.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

????What word games...?????

Using this phrase: "an atheist tactic; something not befitting a Christian."

without actually pointing out the actual error in the "tactic".

Asserting that the person is "equating" a tumor with an embryo is also a word game. Making an analogy is not the same as equating.

 

[mmksparbud]

The problem is not in determining WHAT IS ALIVE, but in knowing what is a human being.

So, DNA not good enough for you?? I truly do not understand what it is you're trying to prove? When consciousness begins? You'll then have to define it very precisely as teenagers aren't very conscious yet!! After we're born we aren't even fully aware of "ourselves", we start exploring ourselves with fingers and mouths--everything goes into the mouth--And children can't tell the difference between truth and lies till about age 5--is it when we can survive without outside help??---good luck, Dr. Phil just had a guy on that is still living at home at 34!

12 week old fetus, 2 inches---you can't tell that is human??

16 weeks, about 4 1/2 inches--looks human to me--not to you??

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well I don't think you are, but you seem to think whether the fetus is viable makes a big difference.

No, viable just means surviving outside the mother....

 

[civilwarbuff]

"exist" is too big a word?
Look, if you build a house, the house does not exist, there is no house, UNTIL the house is built.
So too the "human house" that is built inside a woman's womb.

You are using metaphysical expressions attempting to make a literal statement....it will be misunderstood. And there is no such thing as a human house unless you mean a house that a human built....