"... breathed into his nostrils THE BREATH OF LIFE..."

[mmksparbud]

Biblical facts may, at times, be the opposite of legalities. Legally, the moment of death or the moment of life may not be the same as what God defines. It has been pointed out, that as far as life in womb goes, and as far as breath goes, the two are not exactly the same thing. Babies in the womb are exchanging oxygen and they have blood in their little veins and arteries and as the bible also says,

Lev_17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev_17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Adam became a living soul when God breathed in His nostrils. God gave to Adam and Eve the gift of passing on that breath of life to their offspring--God doesn't have to breathe into a newborn baby to make him a living soul. The spark of life is there in the womb, it is being exchanged through the blood. That baby can die in the womb. The heart can stop, the brain may not develop, but it is living in there. The brain will be functioning, they even suck their little thumbs. Twins have been seen to hold hands. "Unproven terminology?"----it's a life in there, it is breathing in there, it is thinking in their for yhe brain is functioning, and they can scan now and see things that were never seen before. I used to think babies in the womb were just a bunch of cells and nothing truly human yet---not anymore. Seen too much, read too much, read my bible too much, lived through too much to still think that. As a dialysis tech I have given dialysis to premature babies---as little as 3 lbs, and most of that weight was water, I've seen bigger puppies born than that. That baby needed the dialysis to live, which it did. That is not a lump of cells in there. It is a living, breathing, entity in there---no matter the terminology or legalities.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Adam became a living soul when he was, "created", just like we do now when we are, "begotten"

"... for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." I Cor.4:15b
And Ps 2:7 ¶ "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
These and other uses of "begotten" are such that it could not mean "conceived," whereas the Gospel of John with "only begotten Son" (of God the Father) probably means conceived, though it could mean something like "was brought about by."

If WE are "begotten," what does that mean? Have (or at least had) parents?
If you wish assent to your claim, then "begotten" MUST MEAN "born." (If you mean by "soul," human being.)
Perhaps you have something more esoteric in mind?

 

[St_Worm2]

If WE are "begotten," what does that mean?

It means that we have human "parents" and are conceived/begotten/procreated/fathered/etc. by them. IOW, we are not "created" by God like Adam was.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Whether Adam was born is irrelevant to what I am saying.
Point is he was not a living SOUL (person) until he had the breath of life - i.e., was breathing.
There had to be the breath of life and nostrils through which that breath was breathed for there to be an alive human being, and that is still so today.
I guess we have breathing tubes also today, but really there must be the blood replenished by oxygen from the air (breathing) for there to be a human being life. When the breathing ends the life of the person is over.

So, I take it you have never seen a person on a respirator before? The machine is constantly creating a positive and negative pressure in the lungs while infusing oxygen. The patient is not breathing, they are passive. However, the lungs are exchanging O2 for Co2. Turn off the machine they die. The machine keeps running, they are alive.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Biblical facts may, at times, be the opposite of legalities. Legally, the moment of death or the moment of life may not be the same as what God defines. It has been pointed out, that as far as life in womb goes, and as far as breath goes, the two are not exactly the same thing. Babies in the womb are exchanging oxygen and they have blood in their little veins and arteries and as the bible also says,

Lev_17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev_17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Adam became a living soul when God breathed in His nostrils. God gave to Adam and Eve the gift of passing on that breath of life to their offspring--God doesn't have to breathe into a newborn baby to make him a living soul. The spark of life is there in the womb, it is being exchanged through the blood. That baby can die in the womb. The heart can stop, the brain may not develop, but it is living in there. The brain will be functioning, they even suck their little thumbs. Twins have been seen to hold hands. "Unproven terminology?"----it's a life in there, it is breathing in there, it is thinking in their for yhe brain is functioning, and they can scan now and see things that were never seen before. I used to think babies in the womb were just a bunch of cells and nothing truly human yet---not anymore. Seen too much, read too much, read my bible too much, lived through too much to still think that. As a dialysis tech I have given dialysis to premature babies---as little as 3 lbs, and most of that weight was water, I've seen bigger puppies born than that. That baby needed the dialysis to live, which it did. That is not a lump of cells in there. It is a living, breathing, entity in there---no matter the terminology or legalities.

Some of your biology is incorrect. "In there," i.e.in the womb, there is NO BREATHING. Breathing is a lung function, and the lungs of a fetus do not function.

Life may be in the blood, and there may be blood circulating in the womb. Or not. Early on in pregnancy there is NO BLOOD. But never mind - the important point is that what is growing in the womb IS ALIVE, I certainly do not deny that. There is the life you quote Lev. in favor of - but the point is that rats too are alive, and cancers too have life that is sustained by blood flow.
So LIFE is not what is at issue - it is not about whether what is growing in a womb has LIFE, but rather whether it is a human being and hence deserving of the protection of a human being. Saying it has life and is flesh and blood does NOT show it is a human being - and "at the moment of conception" it does not even have that.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Some of your biology is incorrect. "In there," i.e.in the womb, there is NO BREATHING. Breathing is a lung function, and the lungs of a fetus do not function.

Life may be in the blood, and there may be blood circulating in the womb. Or not. Early on in pregnancy there is NO BLOOD. But never mind - the important point is that what is growing in the womb IS ALIVE, I certainly do not deny that. There is the life you quote Lev. in favor of - but the point is that rats too are alive, and cancers too have life that is sustained by blood flow.
So LIFE is not what is at issue - it is not about whether what is growing in a womb has LIFE, but rather whether it is a human being and hence deserving of the protection of a human being. Saying it has life and is flesh and blood does NOT show it is a human being - and "at the moment of conception" it does not even have that.

Would you like to exercise your vast embryological knowledge and tell us when the lungs do begin to function and when blood does begin to circulate? We would love to hear....please quote your source too....

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

So, I take it you have never seen a person on a respirator before? The machine is constantly creating a positive and negative pressure in the lungs while infusing oxygen. The patient is not breathing, they are passive. However, the lungs are exchanging O2 for Co2. Turn off the machine they die. The machine keeps running, they are alive.

Doesn't seem like we disagree much. I guess it depends on how one defines "breathing" - with the respirator the lung function is aided so that the vital exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide continues. Or there is death. We certainly agree on that last point and the essential point here is that the breath of life given to mankind is only found after birth.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Doesn't seem like we disagree much. I guess it depends on how one defines "breathing" - with the respirator the lung function is aided so that the vital exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide continues. Or there is death. We certainly agree on that last point and the essential point here is that the breath of life given to mankind is only found after birth.

Breath is after birth, life comes well before that....

 

[Four Angels Standing]

Adam was dirt until God finished his creation. He didn't become flesh until then. Methinks this is cover for a pro-abortion argument; babies are like tumors until they take their first breath so it's okay to kill them. I've heard it before in that context.

I believe you're right. They're taking a long convoluted road to get to the point of arguing in favor of abortion I think.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Would you like to exercise your vast embryological knowledge and tell us when the lungs do begin to function and when blood does begin to circulate? We would love to hear....please quote your source too....

"Embryological knowledge" is supposedly of embryos, and I am pretty sure there are no lungs or blood circulation of an embryo.
Do you need a source to be convinced that embryos have no lungs? Do you know what an embryo is?

Are you simply trying to deny that the pregnancy product very early has no lungs or blood circulation?
The lungs are used for breathing - there is no breathing in the womb. Ergo, the lungs begin functioning at birth.

 

[St_Worm2]

I'll jump in if it's ok. Assuming that weeks "one" and "two" of a pregnancy begin with a woman's menstrual period, and intercourse happens during week "three", here's what follows concerning our blood:

Week 5

• Week 5 is the start of the "embryonic period." This is when all the baby's major systems and structures develop.
• The embryo's cells multiply and start to take on specific functions. This is called differentiation.
• Blood cells, kidney cells, and nerve cells all develop.
• The embryo grows rapidly, and the baby's external features begin to form.
• Your baby's brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop.
• Baby's gastrointestinal tract starts to form.
• It is during this time in the first trimester that the baby is most at risk for damage from things that may cause birth defects. This includes certain medicines, illegal drug use, heavy alcohol use, infections such as rubella, and other factors.

Weeks 6 to 7

• Arm and leg buds start to grow.
• Your baby's brain forms into 5 different areas. Some cranial nerves are visible.
• Eyes and ears begin to form.
• Tissue grows that will become your baby's spine and other bones.
• Baby's heart continues to grow and now beats at a regular rhythm.
• Blood pumps through the main vessels. NIH US National Library of Medicine

IOW, it happens pretty quickly

Yours and His,
David

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Breath is after birth, life comes well before that....

True, but IRRELEVANT.
See my post#25 - it is NOT about "life." Even sperm and ovum BEFORE CONCEPTION are alive!

 

[Four Angels Standing]

If it never breathed, it would probably be considered BORN DEAD. That is, never had a human being life.

A baby doesn't breathe in the womb that is true. However, a human woman carrying a living being inside her is carrying a living human being. Not a seaturtle or anything other than a human being.
Furthermore, while the baby his or herself do not actually breathe, the mother gives them the breath of life through her own breathing. Which translates through the umbilical cord. The cord of life , as it were.

The first male was dirt before he was formed as a man so as to be given the breath of life by his creator, God.
The mother gives the baby God created in her through the means of human sexual reproduction the breath of life.

If dirt can be created through the power of God and made thus into the image and likeness of God, a human baby is no less created in the image and likeness of their parents through God's grace.
Cutting that living breathing baby out of that womb and stopping their breathing is murder. Being abortion is legal, it is legalized murder. Just like the death penalty, it is the death penalty for the unborn.

 

[civilwarbuff]

"Embryological knowledge" is supposedly of embryos, and I am pretty sure there are no lungs or blood circulation of an embryo.

The terms embryo and fetus are used interchangeably up to 12 weeks.

Do you need a source to be convinced that embryos have no lungs? Do you know what an embryo is?

Just like to know where you get your info from....wiki is OK for some things.....others not so much....

Are you simply trying to deny that the pregnancy product very early has no lungs or blood circulation?

The heart functions at about 5 weeks....guess what it needs to function.....that's right blood. Lungs are present but underdeveloped; however by 20 weeks they can sustain life with assistance.

 

[civilwarbuff]

True, but IRRELEVANT.
See my post#25 - it is NOT about "life." Even sperm and ovum BEFORE CONCEPTION are alive!

Then please explain to me what it is about.....

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

I'll jump in if it's ok. Assuming that weeks "one" and "two" of a pregnancy begin with a woman's menstrual period, and intercourse happens during week "three", here's what follows concerning our blood:

Week 5

• Week 5 is the start of the "embryonic period." This is when all the baby's major systems and structures develop.
• The embryo's cells multiply and start to take on specific functions. This is called differentiation.
• Blood cells, kidney cells, and nerve cells all develop.
• The embryo grows rapidly, and the baby's external features begin to form.
• Your baby's brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop.
• Baby's gastrointestinal tract starts to form.
• It is during this time in the first trimester that the baby is most at risk for damage from things that may cause birth defects. This includes certain medicines, illegal drug use, heavy alcohol use, infections such as rubella, and other factors.

Weeks 6 to 7

• Arm and leg buds start to grow.
• Your baby's brain forms into 5 different areas. Some cranial nerves are visible.
• Eyes and ears begin to form.
• Tissue grows that will become your baby's spine and other bones.
• Baby's heart continues to grow and now beats at a regular rhythm.
• Blood pumps through the main vessels. NIH US National Library of Medicine

IOW, it happens pretty quickly

Yours and His,
David

I appreciate your pointing these things out Dave. However, I don't find them all fully right on. The first point seems particularly strange to me - seeming to be saying the woman is pregnant two or three weeks BEFORE she has intercourse? Seems strange to me. One might think then a woman would never actually need to have the intercourse to be pregnant, sorta like the Virgin Mary?

I think your week 5 stuff is really ALL "begin to develop," and like is indicated by your week 6 or 7 things, only really much develop or "develop" later on.
But what's the point? Surely when one is DENYING THERE IS A HUMAN BEING IN THE WOMB, one is not denying the womb is the place where a human being is formed, only that one does not exist BEFORE it is built, BEFORE it is formed, BEFORE it actually develops and not only begins to develop.
Thanks, Douglas

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Then please explain to me what it is about.....

Look at the last part of post #36.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I think your week 5 stuff is really ALL "begin to develop," and like is indicated by your week 6 or 7 things, only really much develop or "develop" later on.
But what's the point? Surely when one is DENYING THERE IS A HUMAN BEING IN THE WOMB, one is not denying the womb is the place where a human being is formed, only that one does not exist BEFORE it is built, BEFORE it is formed, BEFORE it actually develops and not only begins to develop.
Thanks, Douglas

You might want to redo that statement because it made no sense at all......

 

[mmksparbud]

Some of your biology is incorrect. "In there," i.e.in the womb, there is NO BREATHING. Breathing is a lung function, and the lungs of a fetus do not function.

Life may be in the blood, and there may be blood circulating in the womb. Or not. Early on in pregnancy there is NO BLOOD. But never mind - the important point is that what is growing in the womb IS ALIVE, I certainly do not deny that. There is the life you quote Lev. in favor of - but the point is that rats too are alive, and cancers too have life that is sustained by blood flow.
So LIFE is not what is at issue - it is not about whether what is growing in a womb has LIFE, but rather whether it is a human being and hence deserving of the protection of a human being. Saying it has life and is flesh and blood does NOT show it is a human being - and "at the moment of conception" it does not even have that.[/QUOTE

The heart starts to beat at about 5 weeks gestation. It is circulating blood then, and is seen on ultrasound, not through the lungs, that is after birth, but it is circulating blood with oxygen from the mother--thus, it is breathing, just not with lungs. Without oxygen from the mother, the fetus dies.


4 WEEKS (6 WEEKS AFTER THE FIRST DAY OF THE LAST NORMAL MENSTRUAL PERIOD)
FIRST HEARTBEATS A distinct blood vessel has now formed inside the embryo. It will later develop into the heart and circulatory system of the child. By 5 weeks, the embryo’s heart is tubular in shape and begins to beat. The connections between the pregnant woman and the embryo are developing to form the placenta. The placenta will nourish the embryo, then the fetus, for the remainder of its stay in the uterus.
• The embryo has developed a head and a trunk. • Structures that will become arms and legs, called limb buds, begin to appear. • A blood vessel forms which will later develop into the heart and circulatory system. Blood is beginning to be pumped and is visible by ultrasound. • During this time, a ridge of tissue forms down the length of the embryo. That tissue will later develop into the brain and spinal cord.
LENGTH: 1/4 inch
http://www.healthandwelfare.idaho.g...MoreInformation/Fetal development10_27_08.pdf

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Douglas, this kind of information (that I posited above from the NIH) is part of the reason that our handsome and accomplished son is alive today Seventeen years ago, his frightened, single, 18 yr old, birth mom, who was going to abort him, learned what was really inside of her, IOW, that there was a human "life" in her womb, not just a blob of living cells. So she chose the "adoption option" instead

It seems like you may have never looked closely at the scientific facts about all of this. If you do so, especially with an open mind, I promise you that you will be blown away by what you discover We truly are "fearfully and wonderfully made" .. Psalm 139:14.

Just FYI, I know it seems weird in a way, but we begin to count the "9 months" two weeks prior to a woman becoming "pregnant" at the 1) beginning of her menstrual period and then 2) at the release of the ovum into one of her Fallopian Tubes.

Yours and His,
David