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BREAKING: internet oracles were right, new Motu Proprio undoes Summorum Pontificum

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Fenwick, Jul 16, 2021.

  1. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    MY PREVIOUS POST was somewhat along the lines of automatic writing, expressing immediate reaction more than cool analysis. So, now I find myself noting a few other things, and a raising a few questions, Maybe someone wiser than I might address them.

    1. Interestingly the papal attitude to those who “adhere” to pre-conciliar liturgical forms is to view them not with pastoral care but “paternal solicitude” (para 2 of preamble).These are not mutually exclusive, of course, but this language was no doubt chosen deliberately. Traditionalists are to be seen naughty children, perhaps?
    2. And these naughty children adhere (with childish stubbornness??) to “liturgical forms antecedent to the reform willed by the Vatican Council II” (ibid.). This seems to imply that any form subsequent to the Council is viewed with parental approval. So, Ordo MIssae 65 is OK? What about the Ordinariate Use? It is post-conciliar (yay) but not the Ordinary Form (boo) nor “promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II” (Art 1). Has the curial task force forgotten about the Ordinariate? Or are they saving them for another document?

    3. Continued below.Traditionis custodes: A Few Questions et al | One Foot in the Cloister
     
  2. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    A Protestant ponders the Pope’s decision.

    It is sad and strange to me that Francis can be so warm in his sympathy for those who openly reject his Church and its teachings, but so icy-cold, so corrosively skeptical, towards some of that Church’s most faithful sons and daughters. Sad, strange — and, I believe, profoundly unwise.

    Continued below.
    asymmetrical charity – Snakes and Ladders
     
  3. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    To be frank, couldnt we expect as much from a pope that worshiped false gods just a year ago? He bent his knees for the pachamama statue, a work of human hands... I ask again: "could we expect piety and ortodoxy from the mind, mouth and hands of such an individual?
    If theres any truth to the old saying "fool me once, then shame on you. Fool me twice, then shame on me" this clearly qualifies. I gave up on Francis the minut that he worshiped false gods. This only proves that my decition was the right one to make, and that a bad tree indeed cannot bear any good fruits.

    The path to heaven is a narrow one!
     
  4. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  5. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    QUOTE OF THE WEEK “A papacy that, in words, emphasizes synodality, accompaniment, listening, dialogue, outreach to the margins, and consistently condemns ‘clericalism’ issues a document that embodies a rigid approach and then restricts, limits, and directs more power, ultimately, to Rome.” —Amy Welborn READ
     
  6. BrAndreyu

    BrAndreyu Well-Known Member

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    And I'm sure they weren't thinking that they were somehow more pious or better than anyone as a result of it, either.

    The current form of mass, where you can actually know what's going on because it's not in a dead language, is a completely valid mass. I hate to be the one to burst bubbles, but them's the breaks.
     
  7. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The problem here is that we didn't get exactly the liturgy that the Fathers at Vatican II intended for us. We got something a bit different, run through committees of the cognomens, a bit wreckerized in the process. And it is the wreckerized parts that don't work very well. Some of them have been tweaked a bit to improve the liturgy but for the most part we still do not have the liturgy as the council Fathers wanted us to have. I guess I would say I'm still waiting. One step forward and at least a step backwards, the novus ordo should be known by it's fruits.

    The liturgy that the council Fathers wanted was pretty much what old monsignior Richard Schuller kept at St. Agnes parish in St. Paul MN. All the common parts Latin, the propers in English or Latin with English available, the Scriptures and homilies in English, and the priest and people facing the same way. It was novus ordo, but it was something most TLM and traddie folks would be please with. They never abandoned the Latin mass. And they stayed a vibrant parish with plenty of vocations, sometimes a quarter of seminary classes for the whole diocese were from St. Agnes.
     
  8. Fenwick

    Fenwick ☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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    Seems like he's been using a Marxist strategy if I've ever seen one, "accuse your enemy of what you're doing, while you're doing it, to create confusion." He's spent the past 5-8 years calling traddy people rigid only to drop the hammer on us with the most rigid act a pope has committed in a long, long time.
     
  9. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rigid is THE word.

    Creeping authoritarianism too, making any new priest have to get his express permission to say mass in the TLM.

    Not very diverse either. If I were a member of one of the other Rites of the Catholic Church I would be worried. If I were an Ordinariate member I would be very worried.
     
  10. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    I don't see why there is any need for Eastern Churches to worry. Each Rite has one form of worship. One Rite having two forms of worship is not diversity, it is an objective problem. Benedict introduced an anomaly in 2007. I referenced one traditionalist who acknowledged this earlier in the thread. Michie referenced another in this post. Others have noted the same thing.
     
  11. Fenwick

    Fenwick ☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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    I'm struggling not to think the worst of Francis. I appreciate that a lot of trad voices out there are actually reminding us not to play into their hands by getting angry and lashing out at the modernists. But it's hard. I agree with a lot of what Tim Gordon said yesterday when he covered the story. He noted many people close to the Pope say he's actually a very angry man, and that he seems to have particular ire for North American Catholics, especially the traditional ones, and almost enjoys doing things that upset us or disenfranchise us.

     
  12. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic Supporter

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    I am sorry that your diocese won't be offering TLM, so that you could have that option, but that doesn't preclude your chance to hear a Latin Mass.

    Have you thought about searching online to see if you can find a parish that offers either a live broadcast, or a streaming Latin Mass on a day other than Sunday?
    That way you could still attend your parish mass, and also have the benefits of the Latin Mass.
    It's a thought.:crossrc:
     
  13. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I notice you didn't say the Anglican Ordinariate didn't have to worry.

    The TLM was allowed by pope John Paul II, and is no innovation by pope Benedict. Benedict merely allowed any priest to be able to use this form. And where were the older discussions about this 'anomaly' which seems to only have been unearthed yesterday?
     
  14. Fenwick

    Fenwick ☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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    I've actually been wondering about whether this will affect the Ordinariate, since the document calls for no more personal parishes, which is what the whole Ordinariate essentially is. A non-geographical diocese of personal parishes.
     
  15. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is a righteous anger, but it's difficult to pull it off correctly. Mostly anger just poisons the angry one and doesn't fix anything. So, no, anger isn't the right response. Not even, especially not even in response to an angry old man who doesn't like you anyhow.

    Anger is so tempting. What to replace it with? Sadness. Well, pope Francis doesn't like sad people either. He has unpleasant things to say about sad people. So maybe that isn't going to be productive either. Maybe we just realize that our salvation is nearer now than it was. So maybe hope that there is not too much more to endure. Patience, as in patient endurance, concentrating on running the race well with the help of abundant grace.

    I'm going to listen to Tim Gordon now.
     
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  16. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic Supporter

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    You do know that there is a way around the language barrier, right?
    If your only problem is that the mass is in Latin, then it would seem that all you need is a printed translation of what you are hearing.
    And with some pre-mass preparation
    ( and a few colored ribbons placed appropriately) you should be all set.

    And please remember that when we're in Heaven, we won't have this problem, because each of us will hear Our Lord in our own language.
     
  17. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic Supporter

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    (Off topic:
    thank you for your reminder of patience just now. My neighbor is having a loud party, and I'm about to look for a pair of noise- cancelling head phones that I have stashed around here.)
    Back to the topic now.
     
  18. Fr. Appletree

    Fr. Appletree Priest of The Society of St. Pius V

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    The Latin Mass preserves the very taste or flavor of Catholicism. It is not that the vernacular is wrong to use, but that the issues in the novus order go far beyond the language.

    In places in Europe, like Poland, the novus order is often almost forced to be more similar to the Latin Mass due to the fact that many church buildings are ancient and the people more faithful - a seminarians I know who grew up in Poland said that often the difference was only in language.

    Here, as in most places, the novus order destroyed the very concept of sacred space. That the place of worship should create a sacred space and not be modeled after a profane theatre - as many recently built churches now are.

    And if it's just a theatre and just a profane space like anywhere else, then Christ himself can be put anywhere, I'm any side Chapel or broom closet (side chapels are often so empty of worshippers they seem to be considered almost as closets anyway.

    Never-ending that God Himself gave the prototypes for liturgical practice and the means for preserving sacred spaces. The novus order in common practice sets no standards and separates itself from the proper order.
     
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  19. Fenwick

    Fenwick ☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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    That's so true, I'm sure I've never pulled off truly righteous anger.

    Sadness is definitely what I'm feeling now. A sadness that comes out of betrayal, because that's how I've felt since I first heard the news. Betrayed.
     
  20. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    An indult to use an old liturgy and the claim that a liturgy is the extraordinary form of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite are two very different things.

    I don't know a great deal about the Ordinariate, but my guess is that it's not on par with the TLM. No one claims that the Ordinariate Use is anything like the extraordinary form of the Latin Rite, and the point of Sacrosanctum Concilium was to reform the Latin liturgy. The point of the Ordinariate is to make accommodations for the liturgical life of former Anglicans.

    Ergo, the Latin Church went through the proper channels to reform its own liturgy, and Francis--the special head of the Latin Church--is implementing that reform. He isn't meddling in the affairs of other Churches or Rites or Ordinariates. Traditionalists' beef is primarily with Vatican II and the Post-Conciliar period, not with Francis (and many have admitted this).

    The document says that no new personal parishes that use the 1962 Missal can be erected (A.2 §2). The Anglican Ordinariate does not use that missal.
     
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