BREAKING: internet oracles were right, new Motu Proprio undoes Summorum Pontificum

[BrAndreyu]

He is also saying that the concord and unity that popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI sought to promote with Latin allowances has not been achieved, and that it will be more properly achieved with the abrogation of those allowances.

Honestly he's probably right and I understand exactly what he's going for with this.

Like I've already said: the problem with the Latin mass is that, in recent years generally since the beginning of the whole Trump thing, you have this crowd of recent converts who only want to go to Latin mass because they see it as being a means to build their far right political identity so you wind up with entire parishes of people who go to Latin mass, many of them recent converts who think that they are "better" and more "pious" than those of us who were born into and have grown up in the church, and we've all dealt with them in the comment sections of various websites in the past 4-6 years. The know-it-all 30-something convert who smokes a pipe, drinks expensive beer, and tells you that you've "never been to a valid Mass in your life" and brags that "I would only marry women who veil themselves" because they go to strictly Latin mass. These people are inherently Pharisaic in that they believe themselves to be somehow superior to all of us who have never had the luxury of going to a Latin mass because they weren't offered in our dioceses.

The Latin mass has largely become a political symbol and that's not what it should be. Again I've never been to one, I don't have a problem with it persay, but I see it as being harder to follow and be an active participant in because you have to spend the entire time looking down at a missal of words that are hard to pronounce, that you don't know the meaning of, in a language that nobody outside the church even uses anymore. The other point to this that I see, is that the Novus Ordo makes it easier to evangelize to people and bring them into the church because they can understand what's going on and follow along by having the mass celebrated in their language.

I really think that Pope Francis made the right choice with this.

Bishop Robert Barron said it best when I was looking into the issue last night: The Novus Ordo was good enough for St. John Paul II and Mother Theresa, so it's good enough for all of us.

 

[zippy2006]

The know-it-all 30-something convert who smokes a pipe, drinks expensive beer, and tells you that you've "never been to a valid Mass in your life" and brags that "I would only marry women who veil themselves" because they go to strictly Latin mass. These people are inherently Pharisaic in that they believe themselves to be somehow superior to all of us who have never had the luxury of going to a Latin mass because they weren't offered in our dioceses.

Yes, I have encountered such people as well, though I do not know what percentage of Latin Mass-goers they make up.

The Latin mass has largely become a political symbol and that's not what it should be.

It has become a rallying point for dissidents--political, cultural, and religious. This is obvious even if you are familiar with faithful Catholic TLMers, for they are always attempting to distance themselves from the dissidents. For example, I think of the way that Timothy Gordon or Michael Lofton find themselves compelled to critique Taylor Marshall.

Bishop Robert Barron said it best when I was looking into the issue last night: The Novus Ordo was good enough for St. John Paul II and Mother Theresa, so it's good enough for all of us.

Pope Benedict desired the two forms to mutually enrich one another. That may still occur insofar as some of the liturgical sensibilities of the TLM crowd could be instilled into the Novus Ordo liturgies they begin to attend. It may turn out to be a fruitful practical move.

The way I look at it is this: the two Roman liturgical forms had to be consolidated at one point or another. It makes no sense to have an extraordinary form existing in perpetuity. So why not now? It seems like a good time to consolidate them.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Someone on Twitter commented that the Latin Mass communities should have pushed for sui juris status while we had the chance. I had never thought of that but man it would've protected all of it from these kinds of monstrous attacks. Hopefully we get a pope in the future who not only heals the heinous acts committed here today by Francis and his compatriots, but also is willing to grand such status to the Latin Mass communities as well.

 

[BrAndreyu]

I have encountered such people as well, though I do not know what percentage of Latin Mass-goers they make up.

When I was still using social media, the majority of Latin Mass-goers I got into arguments with (when we were actually more alike than we were different) were these types to a T. That's why I see Latin mass as primarily a cultural symbol. Of course there are the older people who prefer it because that's what they remember from their childhood, but the idea that someone who converted in their 30s because they were looking for a religious identity that would back up their political positions is somehow more "authentically Catholic" than those of us who were born and baptized into the church, made confirmation as teenagers, and defended the church even when we weren't actively practicing our faith is ludicrous. It's the typical "zeal of the converted" problem that you find in any religion.

It has become a rallying point for dissidents--political, cultural, and religious.

I see nothing wrong with being a dissident. I am a dissident against the increasingly secularized and openly anti-religious culture of the USA, but I grew up with the Novus Ordo and don't believe that going to Latin mass makes you any "better" than those of us who never had the option. I definitely agree that it has become a rallying point for dissidents though, particularly sedevacantists who can't handle the fact that the church has changed over time like all human institutions do and instead choose to live in a fantasy world where there hasn't been a legitimate Pope for decades (No, not even St. John Paul II, whose funeral mass I went to as a 19 year old and spent the entire mass in tears despite not having gone to mass for years by that point. It was like the last remaining vestige of my happy childhood was gone).

Pope Benedict desired the two forms to mutually enrich one another. That may still occur insofar as some of the liturgical sensibilities of the TLM crowd could be instilled into the Novus Ordo liturgies they begin to attend. It may turn out to be a fruitful practical move.

This is how I see it. Again, I need to make it abundantly clear that I am not against the Latin mass, I just don't see it as being very practical for evangelization because Latin is a dead language that nobody knows, so when you invite someone to go to mass with you, they won't be able to actively participate. I've been a Catholic all my life (even in the years I was far from the church and wasn't going) and I would not be able to actively participate in the Latin mass at all. I'd be having to spend the mass staring at a missal and trying to pronounce words that I didn't know the meaning of. If anything, it would take me out of the mass more than it would put me in it as an active participant.

Having said that, I don't think that they should outright ban it but I see the point in wanting all Catholics to celebrate the same mass.

 

[zippy2006]

Someone on Twitter commented that the Latin Mass communities should have pushed for sui juris status while we had the chance.

That's an interesting idea.

I'm definitely looking for an opportunity to deploy my dead-pan joke:

"Maybe the Church should just establish a Latin Rite? "
​

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

In English layman's terms, this means what exactly? That nobody is allowed to say the "Latin Mass" anymore?

If that is the case, why is that so horrible exactly? Like I said about the Latin Mass: It's not that I'm against it, I've never been to one but I'm skeptical about how "great" it supposedly is, because it's held up by the "tradcath" scene of 30-something converts who only became Catholic because they believe that the Catholic church fits well with their quasi-White nationalist political beliefs and they use it as a means to virtue signal to the rest of us who have gone to mass in English (or our native language) since birth. Seriously. The Novus Ordo was good enough for St. John Paul II and Mother Theresa, so it's good enough for me. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo and I'm going to take the unpopular opinion of siding with Pope Francis on this one: rigidity for rigidity's sake is bad, especially when we're supposed to be bringing people into the church rather than making it an exclusive place that only the most dedicated people can belong to and I feel that the constant promotion of the Latin mass as being superior to the Novus Ordo (and the believers that have experienced Novus Ordo since birth) does that. It's not right and it is uppity and pharisaic.

Now sometimes I want to see a different form of mass, but not because I want to be able to signal to my secular political tribe how "pious" and "holy" I am that I go to a mass that I cannot understand in a dead language that nobody uses, but because there are different traditions that are just as valid as the Latin mass and Novus Ordo. If you want to see a different form of the mass, just go to an Eastern Catholic church! Ukr. Greek Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Maronite, Armenian Catholic... these all exist in communion with Rome and shouldn't be viewed as inferior just because they don't use the Latin mass.

Again, I'm not down on the Latin mass. I've never been to one, but the notion that the Novus Ordo is somehow invalid or inferior to the Latin mass is ludicrous on it's face and ludicrous in it's spirit because of the kind of people that promote that ideology and their motives for doing so.

Don’t pretend your not down on the Latin Mass after you accuse those that enjoy it of being “quasi white nationalist”. In making this comment you have exposed yourself. Pope Francis has done the same thing in accusing adherents of being navel gazers who cause division.

I hear nothing out the Popes mouth when church’s are desecrated with rainbow flags and homosexual priest both here and abroad push the acceptance of what scripture clearly says is wrong.

We live in dark times where things are spiraling out of control and we have leftist hardliners who attack those who seek solace and comfort in tradition.


Meanwhile over 40 churches have burned in Canada and German Bishops are in open defiance but hey let’s attack faithful Catholics.

 

[BrAndreyu]

Don’t pretend your not down on the Latin Mass after you accuse those that enjoy it of being “quasi white nationalist”.

I'm not. I've never been to one, I just said that the majority of quasi-White nationalist Catholics have an obsession with the Latin mass, not that everyone who goes to the Latin mass is a quasi-White nationalist. There's a tremendous difference and I've stated it across all of my comments on this issue. I've even said that I'd like to go to a Latin mass at least once, but I'm not going to become one of these hyperventilating 30-something converts who smokes a pipe and says to cradle catholics "YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO A VALID MASS IN YOUR LIFE" because let's be honest: those people are the worst. The only reason that someone would defend those types, is because they are one and feel convicted about it.

In making this comment you have exposed yourself.

Speak for yourself. Pull the log out of your own eye before you pick the mote out of mine.

I hear nothing out the Popes mouth when church’s are desecrated with rainbow flags and homosexual priest both here and abroad push the acceptance of what scripture clearly says is wrong.

When has Pope Francis "pushed" the acceptance of sodomy? See, you're talking about people "exposing themselves" and in this post, you actually expose yourself: you are being exactly like one of these navel gazers that are obsessed with "tradition" that he's talking about and who take any and every opportunity to crap all over him for anything and everything he does. Whether we like it or not, he's the Holy Father and was elected by guidance of the Holy Spirit and this was a good move on his part, the reasons for which have already been outlined by myself and another user who aren't so hung up on something that we were never a part of to begin with.

We live in dark times where things are spiraling out of control and we have leftist hardliners who attack those who seek solace and comfort in tradition.

I'm not a leftist. That should be abundantly clear by my post history. You're allowed to not be a leftist and believe that the Novus Ordo is valid instead of being a 30-something year old internet "tradcath" convert, who converted in their late twenties and decides to virtue signal to everyone else in the church by loudly stating that you "only attend Latin mass". Those people are the absolute worst that Catholicism has to offer. They are the most insufferable, annoying people because they think that they know everything because they went through RCIA and constantly decry the Novus Ordo and Vatican II, which I'll say it again: was good enough for Pope St. John Paul II and Mother Theresa, and therefore is good enough for the rest of us. Tradition is good sometimes, tradition for the sake of tradition is obstinate and Pharisaic.

Meanwhile over 40 churches have burned in Canada and German Bishops are in open defiance but hey let’s attack faithful Catholics.

Meanwhile the sexual molestation crisis is still going on and bishops are still wringing their hands and refusing to do anything about it because "oh, poor us! We're so hard up for priests!" What is your point exactly?

Again, I'm not saying that everyone who goes to Latin mass is a quasi-white nationalist, but that all quasi-White nationalists and other people who have an unhealthy obsession with "Western (White) civilization" always go to Latin mass exclusively and down on people who don't, like most of us even have a choice in the matter. These people are rarely, if ever, cradle Catholics and they think that they're somehow superior to the rest of us for converting and then unquestioningly holding to every dogma of the church "because the church says so" rather than understanding why the church says so. They're the type of twenty and thirty somethings who have YouTube channels where they endlessly complain about anything to the left of Donald Trump. I know their type because I've dealt with them again and again, and as lovingly as I can say this, I feel like I'm dealing with one now.

And one final thing: I didn't say that the Latin mass should never be allowed. I understand Pope Francis' reasons for restricting it. He did a survey of Bishops and this led to his decision, this isn't a case of "GRRR POPE FRANCIS IS DOING OBAMA'S WILL AGAIN". He has a very valid reason for restricting it that makes perfect sense.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

I'm not. I've never been to one, I just said that the majority of quasi-White nationalist Catholics have an obsession with the Latin mass, not that everyone who goes to the Latin mass is a quasi-White nationalist. There's a tremendous difference and I've stated it across all of my comments on this issue. I've even said that I'd like to go to a Latin mass at least once, but I'm not going to become one of these hyperventilating 30-something converts who smokes a pipe and says to cradle catholics "YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO A VALID MASS IN YOUR LIFE" because let's be honest: those people are the worst. The only reason that someone would defend those types, is because they are one.




Speak for yourself. Pull the log out of your own eye before you pick the mote out of mine.



When has Pope Francis "pushed" the acceptance of sodomy? See, you're talking about people "exposing themselves" and in this post, you actually expose yourself: you are exactly one of these navel gazers that are obsessed with "tradition" that he's talking about and who take any and every opportunity to crap all over him for anything and everything he does. Whether you like it or not, he's the Holy Father and was elected by guidance of the Holy Spirit and this was a good move on his part, the reasons for which have already been outlined by myself and another user who aren't so hung up on something that we were never a part of to begin with.




I'm not a leftist. That should be abundantly clear by my post history. You're allowed to not be a leftist and believe that the Novus Ordo is valid instead of being a 30-something year old internet "tradcath" convert, who converted in their late twenties and decides to virtue signal to everyone else in the church by loudly stating that you "only attend Latin mass". Those people are the absolute worst that Catholicism has to offer. They are the most insufferable, annoying people because they think that they know everything because they went through RCIA and constantly decry the Novus Ordo and Vatican II, which I'll say it again: was good enough for Pope St. John Paul II and Mother Theresa, and therefore is good enough for the rest of us. Tradition is good sometimes, tradition for the sake of tradition is obstinate and Pharisaic.




Meanwhile the sexual molestation crisis is still going on and bishops are still wringing their hands and refusing to do anything about it because "oh, poor us! We're so hard up for priests!" What is your point exactly?

Again, I'm not saying that everyone who goes to Latin mass is a quasi-white nationalist, but that all quasi-White nationalists and other people who have an unhealthy obsession with "Western (White) civilization" always go to Latin mass exclusively and down on people who don't, like most of us even have a choice in the matter. These people are rarely, if ever, cradle Catholics and they think that they're somehow superior to the rest of us for converting and then unquestioningly holding to every dogma of the church "because the church says so" rather than understanding why the church says so. They're the type of twenty and thirty somethings who have YouTube channels where they endlessly complain about anything to the left of Donald Trump. I know their type because I've dealt with them again and again, and as lovingly as I can say this, I feel like I'm dealing with one now.

And one final thing: I didn't say that the Latin mass should never be allowed. I understand Pope Francis' reasons for restricting it. He did a survey of Bishops and this led to his decision, this isn't a case of "GRRR POPE FRANCIS IS DOING OBAMA'S WILL AGAIN". He has a very valid reason for restricting it that makes perfect sense.

I was born and grew up with the Latin Mass. I don't attend one. But you should be careful with labeling Catholics as "white nationalist" I have never in my life seen any white nationalist activity in the church.

 

[BrAndreyu]

I was born and grew up with the Latin Mass. I don't attend one. But you should be careful with labeling Catholics as "white nationalist" I have never in my life seen any white nationalist activity in the church.

Well then I sincerely apologize for jumping to conclusions about you, because that was wrong on my part. I am not making an excuse for my statements, but remember that I am a pretty terrible person and do not even deserve to set foot in a church, yet somehow I am still allowed to. I jumped to a conclusion because I am afraid of a current that I have noticed in the church in recent years and it wasn't right. I am sorry.

I did not grow up with the Latin mass, I grew up with the Novus Ordo and have never been to a Latin mass in my life but I have repeatedly stated that I'd like to go to one but that my diocese does not offer any (not even at the cathedral). So for me, The Novus Ordo is tradition. The Latin mass is not the mass of my first holy communion or confirmation. It's something foreign to me entirely and when I see people my age who converted to the faith in their late twenties telling me "You've never been to a valid mass" it pains me because church was the one part of my childhood that didn't make me feel bad. By making statements like that, these people, many of them who entered the church in 2014 or later (at least the ones I have dealt with online) are saying that none of the sacraments that I have ever made have been valid and I have very fond memories of my first holy communion and confirmation.

I'm not labeling Catholics as White nationalists. I'm merely stating that there is a current of recent converts to the church that are quasi-White nationalists and they almost all come from my generation & I find it very disconcerting. I've dealt with them on Reddit and across social media in the past four years before I stopped using it entirely. They were one of the biggest things that was preventing me from returning to the church because in them, I saw the church as something that I no longer recognized: some sort of bastion of a culture that I neither believe in or feel a connection to, something that wasn't present in the church of my youth where black, white, asian, and latino kids were all in CCD together.

We all know the type of person I'm talking about: they have YouTube channels where they endlessly whine about "western civilization" (which is a euphemism for White in their minds), they smoke pipes or cigars, drink expensive beers, and say things like "I would never marry a woman who didn't veil herself". These are very real people that I've dealt with and I find them to be pharisaic at best and wolves in sheep's clothing at worst. They don't come to the church because they see anything beautiful in it, they come to it because in it they see a fertile ground for their political projects. Political projects that often run contrary to the real social justice (not leftist socialist justice) that the church teaches: concern for the needy and those on the margins of society. They lionize the people who were lucky enough to be born with silver spoons in their mouths and oftentimes have no respect for the mendicant orders or even the concept of the vow of poverty. They don't care about people like Mother Theresa and are obsessed with the image of the "Templar Knights" and think that by joining the church, that they have some direct connection to the legacy of the crusades. They are the "wrong kind of Catholics" and give the church an even worse name than it currently suffers with because of the sexual molestation crisis.


So again, I think that I jumped to a conclusion about you and I apologize for doing so. I am a legendary sinner and jumping to said conclusions about people is nothing new with me and is part of that very spirit that I've referred to above that I fear. I am really no better than them in this regard and this exchange has shown me that.

 

[Rhamiel]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo

The focus of the N O is more man centered and less God centered, some of the changes in prayer and architecture downplay the sacrificial nature of the Mass and instead make the focus more on community, and the flexibility that @Fenwick mentioned that increases the likelihood of sacramental abuses

especially when we're supposed to be bringing people into the church

The latin mass and traditional theology brought people into the Church for centuries, it has been since the new mass that large parts of Latin America have become Evangelical Protestant

If you want to see a different form of the mass, just go to an Eastern Catholic church! Ukr. Greek Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Maronite, Armenian Catholic... these all exist in communion with Rome and shouldn't be viewed as inferior just because they don't use the Latin mass.

No one views them as inferior, most people who attend latin mass have great respect for Eastern Catholic Churches who have ancient liturgies that were not made up in the 1960’s and deep reverence

Again, I'm not down on the Latin mass. I've never been to one, but the notion that the Novus Ordo is somehow invalid or inferior to the Latin mass is ludicrous on it's face

If you have never been to Latin Mass how can you say it is ludicrous to call it superior to the N O?
That is like saying “I have never had a steak at Delmonico’s but it is ludicrous to say it is superior to a McDonalds hamburger” you have never been so you do not know.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Well, I'm not a white nationalist but I think the TLM and the culture surrounding it, while not perfect, best represents Catholic values across the board. It's also inherently better at protecting and sustaining the deposit of faith over the liturgy and culture of the novus ordo.

Again, I'm not saying the novus ordo is invalid or illegitimate. I go to it every Sunday, but the TLM is the ideal.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Well then I sincerely apologize for jumping to conclusions about you, because that was wrong on my part. I am not making an excuse for my statements, but remember that I am a pretty terrible person and do not even deserve to set foot in a church, yet somehow I am still allowed to. I jumped to a conclusion because I am afraid of a current that I have noticed in the church in recent years and it wasn't right. I am sorry.

I did not grow up with the Latin mass, I grew up with the Novus Ordo and have never been to a Latin mass in my life but I have repeatedly stated that I'd like to go to one but that my diocese does not offer any (not even at the cathedral). So for me, The Novus Ordo is tradition. The Latin mass is not the mass of my first holy communion or confirmation. It's something foreign to me entirely and when I see people my age who converted to the faith in their late twenties telling me "You've never been to a valid mass" it pains me because church was the one part of my childhood that didn't make me feel bad. By making statements like that, these people, many of them who entered the church in 2014 or later (at least the ones I have dealt with online) are saying that none of the sacraments that I have ever made have been valid and I have very fond memories of my first holy communion and confirmation.

I'm not labeling Catholics as White nationalists. I'm merely stating that there is a current of recent converts to the church that are quasi-White nationalists and they almost all come from my generation & I find it very disconcerting. I've dealt with them on Reddit and across social media in the past four years before I stopped using it entirely. They were one of the biggest things that was preventing me from returning to the church because in them, I saw the church as something that I no longer recognized: some sort of bastion of a culture that I neither believe in or feel a connection to, something that wasn't present in the church of my youth where black, white, asian, and latino kids were all in CCD together.

We all know the type of person I'm talking about: they have YouTube channels where they endlessly whine about "western civilization" (which is a euphemism for White in their minds), they smoke pipes or cigars, drink expensive beers, and say things like "I would never marry a woman who didn't veil herself". These are very real people that I've dealt with and I find them to be pharisaic at best and wolves in sheep's clothing at worst. They don't come to the church because they see anything beautiful in it, they come to it because in it they see a fertile ground for their political projects. Political projects that often run contrary to the real social justice (not leftist socialist justice) that the church teaches: concern for the needy and those on the margins of society. They lionize the people who were lucky enough to be born with silver spoons in their mouths and oftentimes have no respect for the mendicant orders or even the concept of the vow of poverty. They don't care about people like Mother Theresa and are obsessed with the image of the "Templar Knights" and think that by joining the church, that they have some direct connection to the legacy of the crusades. They are the "wrong kind of Catholics" and give the church an even worse name than it currently suffers with because of the sexual molestation crisis.


So again, I think that I jumped to a conclusion about you and I apologize for doing so. I am a legendary sinner and jumping to said conclusions about people is nothing new with me and is part of that very spirit that I've referred to above that I fear. I am really no better than them in this regard and this exchange has shown me that.

No problem. I think maybe a lot of young people are seeking out tradition because all the various institutions around them in chaos. Colleges and high schools have all gone woke and anyone who identifies as catholic or Christian are immediately under attack. People seek out tradition because it provides stability and comfort.

If we keep hammering away at tradition we will wind up like all the other church's that now stand in ruin.

 

[BrAndreyu]

f you have never been to Latin Mass how can you say it is ludicrous to call it superior to the N O?

Because of the fact that it was good enough for Pope St. John Paul II and Mother Theresa, along with a very real current of people that I have experienced online when I still used social media who I find to be detestable in their motives for attending strictly Latin masses, which I have already identified and laid out in an apology that I wrote because let's face it, I am coming off like a jerk right now because I didn't think about what I was going to post until I had already posted it. So if I have seriously upset anyone, I am sorry.

The focus of the N O is more man centered and less God centered, some of the changes in prayer and architecture downplay the sacrificial nature of the Mass and instead make the focus more on community, and the flexibility that @Fenwick mentioned that increases the likelihood of sacramental abuses

The thing that I'm trying to get at, is that the N O is "tradition" for a lot of us. Remember that a lot of us never had the luxury of attending a Latin mass because our dioceses did not offer them. I have even said prior that I would legitimately like to attend one, but I view people, namely other millennials that make the claim that "all N O masses are invalid" with a very deep seated suspicion, because in my dealings with them on social media, before I quit using it, I noticed a lot of very ugly sentiments within them. As in my experience, they are almost always, to a person, people of my generation who used to be evangelical protestants who are more interested in using the church as a breeding ground for their political projects rather than letting the church be the church.

I really wasn't trying to upset anyone or ruffle anyone's feathers and I feel badly now that I have, but I understand Pope Francis' reasoning behind this ruling and I generally agree with them. He sees the same current happening in the church that I have seen and has decided to do something to cut it off right at the start rather than allowing it to fester and give credence to the criticisms of the church that are now coming out of Canada.

 

[zippy2006]

The problem is that liturgical innovation from on high occurred in the 20th century and especially at the Council. If you oppose it or reverse it then you reject the Council; if you accept it then you confer legitimacy on liturgical innovation. It's a lose-lose. The Motu Propria issued by Benedict and Francis both make a lot of sense, but neither of them will be able to solve this underlying problem. The difficult fact is that in the 60's the Church did enact unprecedented liturgical innovations. At that point the Tridentine tradition was lost and the authority of the Church was relativized. Reform without relativizing authority was obviously a difficult prospect in 1962, but all the same, it didn't happen.

This is an article from a disgruntled traditionalist, written last week. I don't agree with everything, but much of his underlying analysis is correct. Ultramontanism really has caused liturgical problems in the 20th century (but also Conciliar innovation):

Summorum Pontificum at Fourteen: Its Tragic Flaws

 

[BrAndreyu]

Well, I'm not a white nationalist but I think the TLM and the culture surrounding it, while not perfect, best represents Catholic values across the board.

I didn't think you were personally, it's just a very real problem that I've noticed coming from a specific subset of millennials that are very vocal and prominent on social media & their specific reasoning behind why they like the extraordinary form of the mass comes from an ugly place. It's not motivated so much by a love of the church as it is that they see the church as a means to further their ultimately secular political projects. There are a few YouTubers in general that I am thinking about and they all seem to share the same general traits. I got into it with one of them on Reddit a while back when he tried to argue that none of the sacraments that I received as a child have been valid because they weren't received in TLM. I would not dare to tell anyone who received the sacraments in TLM to not be valid because they were not N O, so it legitimately hurt me that these people said this.

Like I said, I would love to be able to go to attend a Latin mass because I never have, but my diocese does not offer them. The only problem I would have would be trying to follow along because I: don't understand Latin and have never been to one before. The thing that people have to remember is that for some of us, the N O is the only thing we know, so it effectively has become "tradition" in our families and it hurts when people who haven't been there from birth come along telling us that we've "never been to a valid mass in our lives" and then proceed to say that Pope St. John Paul II was not a "legitimate pope" because he was the pope who many of us lived our entire childhoods under and it really affected us when he finally passed away (I remember going to the memorial mass for him in 2005 and spending the entire mass in tears). When Pope Benedict XVI changed some of the responsorials during the mass (from "and also with you" to "and with your spirit") it felt weird for a while and I still don't understand why the change was made, but I deal with it because I accept that he was guided by the Holy Spirit.

I don't think that the Latin mass should even be stopped, but I understand what the Holy Father is trying to do here because I think he notices the same ugly current of people latching onto TLM in an attempt to breed secular political projects that I have noticed among my fellow millennials on Reddit and FB who I've had it out with in the past.

So again, if I've offended anyone I am truly sorry, because I did not mean to throw a hand grenade into the forum.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

 

[BrAndreyu]

I think maybe a lot of young people are seeking out tradition because all the various institutions around them in chaos.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think that's a big part of why so many young people have been investigating the Orthodox churches as well, the problem lies within the motive for doing so. In my generation (millennials) a surprising amount of young, angry white men have tried to attach themselves to the church not because they necessarily believe that salvation can be found within it, but because it provides a veneer of credibility for their views regarding race, women, etc that they are trying to turn into larger political projects and they see the liturgical churches as fertile breeding grounds for advancing said projects because they can call it "traditionalism". The one person I'm thinking of in particular is a guy named Matthew Heimbach who was doing it in the Antiochian Orthodox church (from which he was later excommunicated for doing so). He's probably the most prominent example: they have these incredibly reactionary views regarding race, women, etc and then they attach themselves like a cancer to the church in order to be able to appeal to "tradition" as to why they hold these views.

Colleges and high schools have all gone woke and anyone who identifies as catholic or Christian are immediately under attack. People seek out tradition because it provides stability and comfort.

And that's a major problem, and I've voiced my concerns with the "woke" thing time and again because these people say that they want "social justice" but what they really mean is that they want "socialism". The Church teaches social justice, but it's real social justice as opposed to the "inclusive" atheistic socialism where there is no objective morality or right & wrong that the "woke" crowd is currently pushing in public schools and universities. This whole scene was starting right as I was finishing my second year in college and that's why I decided not to stay, I saw through it for what it really is.

There's nothing wrong with seeking out tradition, because it is stable and comforting but tradition becomes a problem when opportunists seek it out for reasons that run contrary to what the church teaches and I think that Pope Francis understands this, notices it, and has just decided "Well I'm going to nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem" because yes, I have noticed the narrative coming out of Canada and I think that today's move is a reaction to the propagation of that narrative. It is unfortunate, because now I'll probably never get to experience a Latin mass, but I understand why he's doing it: when you have effectively two branches of the same church celebrating different mass forms, it creates a division that over time, could turn into yet another schism. I believe that he's trying to stop that before it starts and there's simply no way he can do it that's going to keep everyone happy.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Thank you, pope Francis. You have showed me so many times over where the church is not. Ta da...

 

[boughtwithaprice]

My take is that it is a tragic day for the Church. The Latin Mass is a beautiful liturgy that should never be lost. What Francis has done is an inconvenience, but he cannot crush the Latin Mass. Also, I do not advocate leaving the Church and going over to the SSPX. This quote from EWTN summarizes the situation:

As Pope Benedict XVI said in his letter of March 10, 2009, concerning his remission of the excommunication of the four bishops of the Society of St. Pius X:

“’Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers — even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty — do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.’

“With respect to the status of the members of this society, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesiae Dei has issued several private replies to individuals which have later been published on the Internet. One of these, from 2008, reflects earlier replies. Regarding the status of adherents to the society, it states:

“‘The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but suspended, that is prohibited from exercising their priestly functions because they are not properly incardinated in a diocese or religious institute in full communion with the Holy See (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 265) and also because those ordained after the schismatic Episcopal ordinations were ordained by an excommunicated bishop.

“‘ Concretely, this means that the Masses offered by the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are valid, but illicit, i.e., contrary to Canon Law. The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony, however, require that the priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid. It remains true, however, that, if the faithful are genuinely ignorant that the priests of the Society of St. Pius X do not have proper faculty to absolve, the Church supplies these faculties so that the sacrament is valid (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 144).

“‘While it is true that participation in the Mass at chapels of the Society of St. Pius X does not of itself constitute “formal adherence to the schism” (cf. Ecclesia Dei 5, c), such adherence can come about over a period of time as one slowly imbibes a schismatic mentality which separates itself from the teaching of the Supreme Pontiff and the entire Catholic Church. While we hope and pray for a reconciliation with the Society of St. Pius X, the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” cannot recommend that members of the faithful frequent their chapels for the reasons which we have outlined above. We deeply regret this situation and pray that soon a reconciliation of the Society of St. Pius X with the Church may come about, but until such time the explanations which we have given remain in force.’

“Thus I think it is fairly clear. The mere fact of assisting at a Mass of this society is not a sin. It would only become so if a person attended this Mass with the deliberate intention of separating himself from communion with the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him.

“I would say, therefore, that a conscientious Catholic should not knowingly attend a Mass celebrated by a priest not in good standing with the Church. Doing so deprives participation at Mass of that fullness of communion with Christ and his Church which the Mass, by its very nature and in all its forms, is called to express.”


I call what Francis has done an inconvenience because we will have limited ability to attend a TLM depending on the diocese where we live. We need to remember why we are Catholic; we worship God, not a Pope, or a priest or a liturgy. The liturgy is the way we worship God, but it is not God Himself. The Novus Ordo confects the Eucharist, and it is the Eucharist that is the flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Christ Himself. I would love to hear the Latin Mass, but I go to church to receive the Eucharist, and I go to a validly ordained priest to receive absolution in the Sacrament of Penance. We can still get those in the Novus Ordo.
It is going to be up to the Laity to preserve the traditional Latin. We are not going to have it handed to us; we have to want it. First, study authentic magisterial teaching. I like learning from the Marian Catechist Apostolate. It was started by Fr Hardon, SJ, but is now overseen by Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke. Francis has created a new ministry of Catechist. I say we take advantage of that ministry and teach the faith. In order to teach it, we have to know it. That is where the Marian Catechist Apostolate is wonderful; it is a thorough review of the Catholic Catechism with three levels, Basic, Advanced and Master.
It is time for traditionalist Catholics to "put their money where their mouth is" so to speak" Do we really want to live the faith, or do we just like going to a Latin Mass cause it tickles our ears? The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that there is no human for whom Christ did not suffer and die; that includes those we most dislike or despise. We need to bring the faith to everyone.
The Latin Mass is so beautiful because it directs the hearts of the faithful to God in the Eucharist, not to a Liturgical dance performance or loud modern music. The focus of the Mass is God. If all we have is the Novus Ordo, then we do not commit the sin or despair, ask God for the virtue of Hope. Do not commit the sin of sloth, but be diligent. Learn, pray, teach. It is God we serve; there is so much to do.
Our parish is incorporating Latin into the Novus Ordo, we sing Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus and Angus Dei. Ask your priest, if he is resistant, ask your Bishop. If he refuses, organize and keep asking. The Bishop needs to at least hear the cries of the faithful. The more there are, the louder the voices get, he will have to do something

sorry for the long rant, we need to keep the Latin Mass, but schism is never the answer

 

[Chrystal-J]

Does this mean I won't be able to watch the Latin Mass on EWTN?