Breaking Free From Fundamentalism

[Hermit76]

Hey guys,

I know many of you come from different backgrounds. My earliest upbringing was in the fire and brimstone Fundamentalist Baptist realm. Since coming to Orthodoxy, I am seeing that those earliest irrational fears have taken a toll on the way I see the world. I am having difficulty leaving those emotions, thoughts, and tendencies behind. It is causing quite a bit of stress. Prayer and Orthodox life helps. So, I am doing all of those things. However, if you have any experience on practical steps to detox from fundamentalism I would love to hear them. The irrational fear of judgement, from God and man, is a pretty intense problem.

 

[ArmyMatt]

pay close attention when we get to Lent and Holy Week

 

[rusmeister]

pay close attention when we get to Lent and Holy Week

What he said.
We are NEVER worthy; that is part of getting that God's grace really IS divine condescension - love on a level we can't deserve, no matter how ascetic we get.

 

[Tolworth John]

The irrational fear of judgement, from God

Speaking as one who believes in the fundamental principals of faith.
May I ask why you fear Gods judgement?
If you are a Christian you have been forgiven, in the language you ae fermiliar with, " you have been washed in the blood of the Lamb."
A rather distressing verbal picture.
Are you trusting in Jesus for your salvation?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I have found 1 John 4:16-19 to be a good meditation on this topic. I've had similar issues in the past.

 

[☦Marius☦]

As a former baptist awaiting my christening into Orthodoxy, might I ask what tendencies are you talking about? While the orthodox do not view God and salvation in the same judgmental harsh way as evangelical protestants, Orthodoxy does present a narrower road as far as salvation goes sometimes. After all a baptist would believe that faith alone without works would save where an Orthodox would believe that faith without works is impossible, as James says. We have an interesting combination of forgiveness and also strictness, and I think that comes with the idea that we can do nothing in our own power as Orthodox.

Edit: I should say that Baptists have alot more interest in Old testament law than Orthodox. We focus more on New Testament forgiveness, while also providing age old methods to follow Christs commandments and achieve the way (through fasting, mysteries etc). Our final judgement is alot more personal. Eternal punishment for the Orthodox is permanent separation from God, hence the "burning" is the burning desire to be with him. Everything God has done in history has been to give us a way to commune with him, and that is why we value Communion so very much. Christ didn't die because God is required to punish those who do wrong, Christ died so that he could form a bridge for us to walk on, so that when we die the holiness of God isn't something foreign to us. We are to become Christ like, so that we share in the essence of God. Thats what communion is.

Altogether basically the West views Salvation as a judicial system, where the East views it as a regenerative cure for the sickness of sin.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Altogether basically the West views Salvation as a judicial system, where the East views it as a regenerative cure for the sickness of sin.

Hm . me too.

 

[Constantine_Orthodox]

Very good description!!!

We are to become Christ like, so that we share in the essence of God. Thats what communion is.

Just one little remark. God's essence is unknowable, He communicates with the creation through His energies.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Very good description!!!



Just one little remark. God's essence is unknowable, He communicates with the creation through His energies.

good point. this is why commonly speaking we say we share in God's Nature. His Essence being what is forever beyond us (God as He is and how He knows Himself), and His Energies which are how He makes Himself known. both essence and energy are aspects of nature.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Speaking as one who believes in the fundamental principals of faith.
May I ask why you fear Gods judgement?
If you are a Christian you have been forgiven, in the language you ae fermiliar with, " you have been washed in the blood of the Lamb."
A rather distressing verbal picture.
Are you trusting in Jesus for your salvation?

the question for the Orthodox is not whether God will have mercy upon us (which you are absolutely correct to point out), but rather if we are preparing to receive His mercy. because if we aren't, His very mercy becomes our condemnation and judgment because it will expose and judge our sin.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Good points. I might add as Orthodox we would simply say share in "his mysteries" anyway.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Good points. I might add as Orthodox we would simply say share in "his mysteries" anyway.

yep, and we don't really know any distinction since this is God we are talking about, all we know is that there is one.

 

[Hermit76]

Speaking as one who believes in the fundamental principals of faith.
May I ask why you fear Gods judgement?
If you are a Christian you have been forgiven, in the language you ae fermiliar with, " you have been washed in the blood of the Lamb."
A rather distressing verbal picture.
Are you trusting in Jesus for your salvation?

What?

 

[Hermit76]

As a former baptist awaiting my christening into Orthodoxy, might I ask what tendencies are you talking about? While the orthodox do not view God and salvation in the same judgmental harsh way as evangelical protestants, Orthodoxy does present a narrower road as far as salvation goes sometimes. After all a baptist would believe that faith alone without works would save where an Orthodox would believe that faith without works is impossible, as James says. We have an interesting combination of forgiveness and also strictness, and I think that comes with the idea that we can do nothing in our own power as Orthodox.

Edit: I should say that Baptists have alot more interest in Old testament law than Orthodox. We focus more on New Testament forgiveness, while also providing age old methods to follow Christs commandments and achieve the way (through fasting, mysteries etc). Our final judgement is alot more personal. Eternal punishment for the Orthodox is permanent separation from God, hence the "burning" is the burning desire to be with him. Everything God has done in history has been to give us a way to commune with him, and that is why we value Communion so very much. Christ didn't die because God is required to punish those who do wrong, Christ died so that he could form a bridge for us to walk on, so that when we die the holiness of God isn't something foreign to us. We are to become Christ like, so that we share in the essence of God. Thats what communion is.

Altogether basically the West views Salvation as a judicial system, where the East views it as a regenerative cure for the sickness of sin.

There are degrees of Baptist. I'm talking about an early childhood shaped by fundamentalism. A middle of the road Baptist, like Southern (where I gravitated towards after high school), doesn't leave you with the same trauma. Fundamentalism, be it Baptist, Pentecostal, or whatever, leaves you with a paranoia type fear. The fear of God and the fear of judgement of the congregation become synonymous. You are always looking over your shoulder, thinking all you do or think is evil.
While the Orthodox way is more narrow in a lot of ways, it is more open to living, in my opinion anyway. I feel "relaxed" now. There isn't a fear that if I am human that somehow God is going to "get me." There also isn't a fear that if I somehow mess up that the congregation is going to expel me. Although Orthodoxy brings freedom in these areas through Orthodoxy, what I describe is a type of spiritual PTSD. Even though you are safe, you still have this lingering irrational fear and paranoia. For example, it is difficult for me to buy alcohol because it was drilled in me so long that alcohol is evil. It was also drilled into me that alcohol was a reason for public ridicule and ostracism.

If you have never been there it is difficult to understand.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There are degrees of Baptist. I'm talking about an early childhood shaped by fundamentalism. A middle of the road Baptist, like Southern (where I gravitated towards after high school), doesn't leave you with the same trauma. Fundamentalism, be it Baptist, Pentecostal, or whatever, leaves you with a paranoia type fear. The fear of God and the fear of judgement of the congregation become synonymous. You are always looking over your shoulder, thinking all you do or think is evil.
While the Orthodox way is more narrow in a lot of ways, it is more open to living, in my opinion anyway. I feel "relaxed" now. There isn't a fear that if I am human that somehow God is going to "get me." There also isn't a fear that if I somehow mess up that the congregation is going to expel me. Although Orthodoxy brings freedom in these areas through Orthodoxy, what I describe is a type of spiritual PTSD. Even though you are safe, you still have this lingering irrational fear and paranoia. For example, it is difficult for me to buy alcohol because it was drilled in me so long that alcohol is evil. It was also drilled into me that alcohol was a reason for public ridicule and ostracism.

If you have never been there it is difficult to understand.

I understand what you mean I think.

I do still feel very wrong to even enter a liquor store (not that I do often, if I did it might clear up more quickly). I used to belong to groups who thought that if you had one stray thought of anger and then died without praying for forgiveness you would go to hell. According to them, I slipped in and out of salvation all day long!

I think that's a large part of why I actually became Orthodox. To be honest, I had the very Protestant intention of learning about it and taking whatever I found useful, but not actually becoming Orthodox. Not at first. I think days (literally around 8 hours a day) spent listening to mostly Orthodoxy Live on AFR and hearing Fr. Evan speak continuously about a loving God who really wanted to save mankind is what really made it click. I had loved Jesus since I was a child, but I never really trusted that the Father loved us or opened my heart fully to Him as well. Fr. Evan finally convinced me, and it was very like a kind of new conversion. (Though I well know I was converted before.) But it was that powerful an understanding.

Thoughts still creep in and try to pull me back to that former understanding. It was worse in the first couple of years. It doesn't enter my mind often now. In fact I had to check myself to make sure I didn't swing too far the other way into not taking little misses seriously enough, as I was also tempted to do (whatever the enemy can use, eh?).

I think it takes time to recover and find a balance. Much of the time that was accomplished for me by what I listened to, but part of the time I had to actively seek it and discipline my understanding. But it was a process.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hey guys,

I know many of you come from different backgrounds. My earliest upbringing was in the fire and brimstone Fundamentalist Baptist realm. Since coming to Orthodoxy, I am seeing that those earliest irrational fears have taken a toll on the way I see the world. I am having difficulty leaving those emotions, thoughts, and tendencies behind. It is causing quite a bit of stress. Prayer and Orthodox life helps. So, I am doing all of those things. However, if you have any experience on practical steps to detox from fundamentalism I would love to hear them. The irrational fear of judgement, from God and man, is a pretty intense problem.

I would also add - whatever you do, if you haven't already - DO NOT READ that whole tollhouse vision by Theodora. My priest warned me away from it at first, but after a year and a half or so released me to read whatever I want. It was too soon for that, for me. Really upset my understanding and took a good 2-3 months to recover from and in the meantime is the best source of fuel for the enemy to use against me.

It's not meant to be literally understood anyway, and has gotten criticism on a few points. Really, please trust me if you want to avoid confusion, don't read that account.

God be with you.

 

[Hermit76]

I think it takes time to recover and find a balance.

Time seems to be the key. However, I am afraid that it is time for me to fearfully yo-yo back. I'm finding fundamentalism in pockets (very few) of Orthodoxy and thankfully I am repulsed at the very sign of it. I just want to be comfortable in my own skin. Honestly, I need a rest from that battle for a while.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Time seems to be the key. However, I am afraid that it is time for me to fearfully yo-yo back. I'm finding fundamentalism in pockets (very few) of Orthodoxy and thankfully I am repulsed at the very sign of it. I just want to be comfortable in my own skin. Honestly, I need a rest from that battle for a while.

Yes there are pockets and wrong voices everywhere. Thankfully they are much less common in Orthodox parishes but we are after all in the PROCESS of being perfected, so there will always be people of all kinds. Online is much worse (I think because they can become an echo chamber and support each other and, misunderstanding the Fathers think it is patristic and approved). Best just to avoid such at first - maybe always. I'm not sure if there is a point we should engage them. All I know is that if there is, I'm nowhere near there yet.

Try to take in what is good. It helps with the balance. God be with you.

 

[Tolworth John]

the question for the Orthodox is not whether God will have mercy upon us (which you are absolutely correct to point out), but rather if we are preparing to receive His mercy. because if we aren't, His very mercy becomes our condemnation and judgment because it will expose and judge our sin.

It is a basic Christian truth as seen in john 3:16-18

 

[Tolworth John]

What?

the question for the Orthodox is not whether God will have mercy upon us (which you are absolutely correct to point out), but rather if we are preparing to receive His mercy. because if we aren't, His very mercy becomes our condemnation and judgment because it will expose and judge our sin.

Rather than confuse you with extreem fundamentalist ranting, i'll quote an orthodox poster whos post I and all Christians would agree with 100%.