BREAKING: Abp. Cordileone bars Nancy Pelosi from Communion until she ends abortion support!

chevyontheriver

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Actually, I am confused - is this an excommunication or if not, what is the correct term for this and what is the difference between this and being excommunicate? Throughout my career I’ve understood excommunication as principally, exclusion from Holy Communion, and anathema as exclusion from the Church, with the Protestant concept of disfellowshipping a watered down version of the latter. How does the Roman Catholic Church use this terminology at present? My understanding is that Pelosi incurred what in prior centuries would have been referred to in the Catholic Church as a minor excommunication.

Also, there is Canon 1329 which causes one who is a crucial accessory to the commission of a sin that incurs an automatic excommunication Latae sententiae , and Canon 1398 excommunicated Latae Sententiae with absolution reserved to the Pope (in practice, handled by the Apostolic Penitentiary using a special procedure where the priest who hears the initial confession communicates the details of the case to the Apostolic Penitentiary using a psuedonym for the penitent to protect their privacy and the seal of the confessional, and the Apostolic Penitentiary* then replies as appropriate.

Now, forgive my ignorance, but wouldn’t Archbishop Cordileone’s invocation of Canon 915 have the effect of suggesting that there is a latae sententiate excommunication? He did not explicitly say it was reserved to the Pope, but is there any other canon law she could have violated? Or does canon 1329 not become reserved to the Holy See even if the sin aided and abetted, in this case canon 1398, is reserved?

I find myself hankering for the relative simplicity of the Pedalion, but I imagine if our roles were reversed you would be hankering for the clarity and objectivity of the Code of Canon Law (since Orthodox churches don’t have canon laws so much as they have canons in the ancient Greek meaning of the term, which is to say, guidelines, due to the principles of exactness and economy which allow canons to be waved, applied but with greatly reduced penances, applied strictly, or economized out of existence, for example, the ancient canons prohibiting clergy from attending theatrical performances or eating or spending the night in a tavern (which made sense in the 6th century when theaters were houses of lewd entertainments and taverns were inextricably associated with immoral acts prohibited everywhere in the US except for certain rural counties in Nevada). I want to learn as much as someone other than a canon lawyer reasonably can learn about Catholic canon law, however, so as to be able to contrast it with the Eastern Orthodox and the very obscure Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian canon law (the Eastern Orthodox make use of the Apostolic Canons, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox use the Didascalia, an ancient church order similar to the Didache, and even include it in some editions of their Bible).

Pursuant to this end, if anyone has heard of any works comparing Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox canon law, or the separate Codes of Canon Law for the Roman Church and the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches, that would be of great interest to me.

*This institute should not be confused with the small prison in the Vatican where a few years back some officials accused of corruption were detained during a trial; my understanding is the Vatican Gendarmerie and other security forces (the Swiss Guard) generally make use of Italian prisons, for example, when the Gendarmes arrest a pickpocket in the Piazza San Pietro.
Strangely, Pelosi is not excommunicated. She is just forbidden from receiving communion in her diocese. If words made sense being forbidden from receiving communion would mean being excommunicated. But that is a linguistic incoherence I cannot solve. She is not excommunicated. Just not to receive communion. At least not until she publicly repents and confesses. Which is what someone who was excommunicated would have to do. Go figure.

A Latae sententiae excommunication is a real excommunication. But since nobody actually delivers a writ of excommunication, who is to say the person is actually excommunicated? Is it published somewhere who is excommunicated in this way? No. How do I know who is excommunicated this way? I can't know. How does the person excommunicated this way even know? Maybe they have figured it out, or maybe they are totally ignorant of being excommunicated. I guess they should know but I suspect some don't. And others will pretend they aren't excommunicated. Is Nancy Pelosi under Latae sententia excommunication? Maybe. Who knows? It's silly. Canon law is not perfect. This is a prime example.

As to who can remit sins and excommunications surrounding abortion, that has been broadened in recent years. Numerous pastors were given special permission to hear such confessions and lift those excommunications. And I believe that has now been extended to all priests. Considering the prevalence of abortion, that is probably a good thing. All one needs to do to be relieved of the guilt they may have for an abortion is one sincere confession. Then they can be fully restored and receive the Eucharist again without danger. In the case of scandal they would need to make a public statement as well.So I think in the case of abortion it is no longer (practically at least) limited to the Holy See.
 
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The Liturgist

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A well informed lay person who has been told about this should have the courage to decline Nancy Pelosi. But that presumes a priest who informs the lay Eucharistic minister and expects that minister to comply. A rebel priest will not so inform any lay ministers and might even tell them to ignore what the archbishop has written, So we'll see. My bet is Pelosi will be followed by photographers and whatever happens will be news. And that she hand picks a place where they WILL give her communion. But that's just my bet.

If a Lay Eucharistic Minister in the Novus Ordo mass or an altar server or deacon or subdeacon in a traditional Latin Mass is aware of an excommunicant approaching to receive, is there any canonical means, compliant with the rubrics for the mass, for them to inform the priest? And can lay eucharistic ministers or priests repulse a known excommunicant? In the Anglican church, and perhaps in the Anglican Ordinariates, the BCP allows the priest to repulse a “notorious evil liver” from the Eucharist, and likewise Orthodox priests can do this, and I assume the same is true for Sui Juris Eastern Catholic priests.
 
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chevyontheriver

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If a Lay Eucharistic Minister in the Novus Ordo mass or an altar server or deacon or subdeacon in a traditional Latin Mass is aware of an excommunicant approaching to receive, is there any canonical means, compliant with the rubrics for the mass, for them to inform the priest? And can lay eucharistic ministers or priests repulse a known excommunicant? In the Anglican church, and perhaps in the Anglican Ordinariates, the BCP allows the priest to repulse a “notorious evil liver” from the Eucharist, and likewise Orthodox priests can do this, and I assume the same is true for Sui Juris Eastern Catholic priests.
I would GUESS a lay extraordinary minister of communion would be under the authority of the priest and should have the responsibility to deny communion to turn such people away. In essence they would be following the orders of the priest on that. Now if the priest instructs them to go ahead anyway and offer the Eucharist to a notorious evil liver they would be in a pickle. Which is one of the reasons I have never sought out being an extraordinary minister of communion. I don't want to be put in that situation.

There was a situation recently in Chicago where cardinal Cupich was the officiant and the mayor of Chicago was present. The cardinal saw the mayor and rather than he himself offering her communion he sat out the distribution of the Eucharist and a priest had to stand in for him. The priest gave the mayor, not a Catholic, communion but afterwards figured out what happened. Cupich dodged the cameras and the bad publicity he would have inevitably gotten and let it all fall on the priest. Who almost immediately afterwards repented. He was put in the situation unjustly and unprepared with only a minute of notice. Sadly such is Eucharistic politics in the USA. It's almost a war.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The Liturgist

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I would GUESS a lay extraordinary minister of communion would be under the authority of the priest and should have the responsibility to deny communion to turn such people away. In essence they would be following the orders of the priest on that. Now if the priest instructs them to go ahead anyway and offer the Eucharist to a notorious evil liver they would be in a pickle. Which is one of the reasons I have never sought out being an extraordinary minister of communion. I don't want to be put in that situation.

There was a situation recently in Chicago where cardinal Cupich was the officiant and the mayor of Chicago was present. The cardinal saw the mayor and rather than he himself offering her communion he sat out the distribution of the Eucharist and a priest had to stand in for him. The priest gave the mayor, not a Catholic, communion but afterwards figured out what happened. Cupich dodged the cameras and the bad publicity he would have inevitably gotten and let it all fall on the priest. Who almost immediately afterwards repented. He was put in the situation unjustly and unprepared with only a minute of notice. Sadly such is Eucharistic politics in the USA. It's almost a war.

I am surprised the rubrics allow a celebrant such partial participation, or rather, I would be surprised if they did allow that. I do have a copy of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, but sadly not all dioceses enforce the rubrics or other liturgical regulations to the desired extent.

For example, it is my understanding is that the motu proprio of Pope St. Pius X, Tra la sollecitudini*, is still in effect, yet sadly I have been to several Novus Ordo masses which did not reflect its instruction with respect to sacred music.

* I myself regard this motu proprio to be the most excellent guide for the proper form and use of sacred music in existence and believe that all liturgical churches would be well served by following its general principles. Indeed, one could argue that all of the most respected liturgical traditions are functioning in a manner consistent with it, whether one considers the exquisite polyphonic music at a Slavonic Divine Liturgy or All Night Vigils, the Byzantine chant at Matins on Mount Athos, the exquisite Gregorian chant of the Schola Cantorum in Portland, Oregon, the splendid Ambrosian chant in Milan, the haunting melodies of the Mozarabic chant in Toledo or the Syriac Orthodox chant in monasteries in Tur Abdin, the hills above Mosul, and Jerusalem (and the closely related Syriac Catholic and Maronite Chant) the joyous Tasbeha chant in Coptic Catholic and Orthodox churches in Egypt, and the splendid Choral Evensong** with traditional boys choirs at most of the major Anglican cathedrals and parishes in Britain and Ireland, and a fortunate few parishes and cathedrals abroad, such as St. Thomas 5th Ave, and hopefully soon to be heard in increasing numbers of Ordinariate and WRO parishes.

**The much admired Anglican divine office is not purely the work of Cranmer, as is often believed, but was in fact based on a proposed reform of the Roman Breviary by Cardinal Quinones, which perhaps explains why it is markedly less prolix than some other services in the BCP, some of which strike me as being a bit verbose, but people love them, which is why I think the Ordinariate is a good idea.

If interest exists, I might write a comparison of the revised Ordinariate Holy Communion in the Book of Divine Worship used by some Ordinariate churches in North America with the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon and the observations on changes needed to the Anglican Holy Communion service for it to be used by converts to the Orthodox Church by St. Tikhon of Moscow before he was made Patriarch and later died of mistreatment in a Soviet jail, like so many other Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs who were either martyred outright or allowed to die in horrible circumstances.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I am surprised the rubrics allow a celebrant such partial participation, or rather, I would be surprised if they did allow that. I do have a copy of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, but sadly not all dioceses enforce the rubrics or other liturgical regulations to the desired extent.
I have seen a severely handicapped priest who could only sit while saying mass and could not distribute the Eucharist. I don't know if there exists a rubric for that.
**The much admired Anglican divine office is not purely the work of Cranmer, as is often believed, but was in fact based on a proposed reform of the Roman Breviary by Cardinal Quinones, which perhaps explains why it is markedly less prolix than some other services in the BCP, some of which strike me as being a bit verbose, but people love them, which is why I think the Ordinariate is a good idea.
Informative.
If interest exists, I might write a comparison of the revised Ordinariate Holy Communion in the Book of Divine Worship used by some Ordinariate churches in North America with the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon and the observations on changes needed to the Anglican Holy Communion service for it to be used by converts to the Orthodox Church by St. Tikhon of Moscow before he was made Patriarch and later died of mistreatment in a Soviet jail, like so many other Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs who were either martyred outright or allowed to die in horrible circumstances.
I would love to read it. I suspect many in Traditional Theology would also. I could not guarantee any mass market of interest though.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have seen a severely handicapped priest who could only sit while saying mass and could not distribute the Eucharist. I don't know if there exists a rubric for that.

That I would think is a special case; I know of an Eastern Orthodox priest who is wheelchair-bound. I would assume he has a deacon to assist him, since communion in the hand is only done in some celebrations of the Divine Liturgy of St. James, and there is a canon which prevents kneeling or prostration on Saturdays, Sundays and during Bright Week (actually, the canon in question, Canon XX of Nicaea, specifies that for all of the Pentecost; this canon is obviously no longer in effect in the Latin Rite although it is observed in several of the Eastern Catholic churches). There is also an Orthodox church in Moscow which has a deaf priest and a deaf congregation, which is good; unfortunately the disabled have a rough time over there in terms of standard of living, so just having a church is a big help. In the US I know of a priest in either the OCA, AOCNA or ROCOR who has a dispensation from the pre-Eucharistic fast, which normally starts the night before (traditionally at All Night Vigils if that is observed) and eats a full breakfast due to hypoglycemia. All of these were due to accommodations from the bishops.

I would assume there is even greater tolerance and accommodation in the Roman Catholic Church.
 
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The Liturgist

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I would love to read it. I suspect many in Traditional Theology would also. I could not guarantee any mass market of interest though.

I would assume there wouldn’t be since we are talking a two or three page comparison. By the way I assume you know that I am part of a group that compiles public domain liturgical books and am also a self-funded clergyman (not at present Roman Catholic; I might join in the future - I have had exploratory talks but the current uncertainty around the Latin Mass and the Amazonian Synod is causing me to bide my time, but I have an intense love for the traditional Roman Catholic Church as should be obvious; you are also perhaps aware, as I mentioned it previously, I was with a mainline denomination but left due to the liberalism and focused on embedded operating systems design, as I had thankfully majored in CS and minored in theology, but then for my professional degree went with an MDiv, but from the wrong seminary and for the wrong church).
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I was an EMHC and was told by my pastor that unless he tells
me not to give Holy Communion to a person who presents themselves to receive,
we're not to withhold Communion from them. We don't know if they've been
to Confession or not and only the pastor with instructions from the bishop, can tell
us when not to give Communion. We're not to be Liturgical Police.

That being said, the same pastor told me what to do if a communicant tried
to dip the host into the cup. He said as the EMHC, I'm responsible for defending
the Precious Blood from being abused or improperly received. He said, just
place your hand over the cup and tell the person to receive the host first, then
receive from the cup.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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FYI, for Latae Sententiae excommunication to be lifted, all the person has to
do is go to Confession and Confess the excommunication and the sin and
promise to sin no more.

That being said, Latae Sententiae is a mortal sin.

So, three conditions must be met for a sin to be mortal.

1. The sin must be grave
2. The person commits the sin with full knowledge. (Just being told
isn't enough)
3. It must be committed with full consent.
 
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Gnarwhal

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If a Lay Eucharistic Minister in the Novus Ordo mass or an altar server or deacon or subdeacon in a traditional Latin Mass is aware of an excommunicant approaching to receive, is there any canonical means, compliant with the rubrics for the mass, for them to inform the priest? And can lay eucharistic ministers or priests repulse a known excommunicant? In the Anglican church, and perhaps in the Anglican Ordinariates, the BCP allows the priest to repulse a “notorious evil liver” from the Eucharist, and likewise Orthodox priests can do this, and I assume the same is true for Sui Juris Eastern Catholic priests.

I'm not sure of the canon law particulars or procedures therein, but I would imagine—hope, even—that EMHC's are instructed in their training to deny someone Holy Communion if they know objectively they should not receive, specifically in cases like Pelosi. If Pelosi were to approach, and an EMHC denied her then she tries to intimidate them by making a fuss, it's going to bring her presence to the priest's attention (who certainly would know the situation or he could be apprised of it thereafter).
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I'm not sure of the canon law particulars or procedures therein, but I would imagine—hope, even—that EMHC's are instructed in their training to deny someone Holy Communion if they know objectively they should not receive, specifically in cases like Pelosi. If Pelosi were to approach, and an EMHC denied her then she tries to intimidate them by making a fuss, it's going to bring her presence to the priest's attention (who certainly would know the situation or he could be apprised of it thereafter).

Only the pastor can instruct an EMHC to withhold Communion, unless they know the person
isn't Catholic. Otherwise, they often have no clue on whether the person has gone to Confession or not.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I would assume there wouldn’t be since we are talking a two or three page comparison. By the way I assume you know that I am part of a group that compiles public domain liturgical books and am also a self-funded clergyman (not at present Roman Catholic; I might join in the future - I have had exploratory talks but the current uncertainty around the Latin Mass and the Amazonian Synod is causing me to bide my time, but I have an intense love for the traditional Roman Catholic Church as should be obvious; you are also perhaps aware, as I mentioned it previously, I was with a mainline denomination but left due to the liberalism and focused on embedded operating systems design, as I had thankfully majored in CS and minored in theology, but then for my professional degree went with an MDiv, but from the wrong seminary and for the wrong church).
There is hope that we Catholics can make a proper place for you in a few years.
 
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narnia59

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A well informed lay person who has been told about this should have the courage to decline Nancy Pelosi. But that presumes a priest who informs the lay Eucharistic minister and expects that minister to comply. A rebel priest will not so inform any lay ministers and might even tell them to ignore what the archbishop has written, So we'll see. My bet is Pelosi will be followed by photographers and whatever happens will be news. And that she hand picks a place where they WILL give her communion. But that's just my bet.
Technically photographers shouldn't be allowed in the Mass. If the media show up they should be turned away. But odds are good cameras will be working somewhere. Hard to keep people from running their cell phones.

My bet is she will deliberetely choose both kinds of places. She will show how she can receive in some (the good guys and reasonable), but then deliberately pick a place where she thinks she will be denied and force someone to do it. And turn our holiest of moments into a spectacle. That will be the mean bishop's fault, not hers.

I have very mixed feelings about requiring lay ministers to do that as I'm sure you can tell. Courageous or not, I just can't see requiring a lay person to step into that potential circus and enforce that. But I'm not sure we use "extraordinary" ministers correctly anyway. They are truly supposed to be extraordinary and they've not.

One of the things that has always struck me about Pelosi. Have you ever noticed in speaking about abortion how she often brings up her own experience of having a bunch of kids in a very few years? I've often wonder how her kids feel about that. She might as well say if abortion had been an option for me I could have kept that from happening.
 
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pdudgeon

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(small aside here.)
Because of extreme heat here, where I live, and because being in such heat could cause me health problems, I won't be attending mass or the open Board meeting which is to follow the mass tomorrow.
I had long planned to be at Sunday's mass, but will have to take a pass this year.
So future plans for our parish Church will go on without my input.
 
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