BREAKING: Abp. Cordileone bars Nancy Pelosi from Communion until she ends abortion support!

pdudgeon

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About darn time! Its simple we need adults and good Catholics to simply say "No"! and to stand.
My only worry is that the Vatican will turn on this man of God.
Do not fear such an opportunity.
This has to happen, and now is a good time for everyone to become publically open and accountable for their actions, and others not to keep on writing them off because of their status within the Church.:crossrc:
 
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pdudgeon

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We need to regard the heart of God more than we regard the opinion of men.
Put God first, and entrust our lives and hearts to Him.
 
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pdudgeon

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Something tells me that in the coming days, many Catholics will have their thoughts on the state of the Church revealed, commented upon, and weighed upon a balance scale like never before.
In our parish, that time will be coming up this Sunday, when our Board meets in an open, public meeting.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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Yes, this could well invite a war among Bishops. Let's pray that it won't happen, and that the U. S. A. Bishop's will join together in unity on this issue over the body and blood of Our Lord!
I know that it's not easy for the Bishop's to hold firm on this point, especially when it's such a public issue ( when it should be a private one!).
But hold firm is exactly what MUST happen, if the integrity of the Holy Eucharist is to be maintained.
And the Bishop's must remember that, no kidding, "The buck stops with them."
It is absolutely a matter of personel integrity for them, and it's set in a very public arena.
Let's pray that they understand that. :oldthumbsup:



Well living in Massachusetts we are all familiar with this quote
"The shot heard round the world" is a phrase that refers to the opening shot of the battles of Lexington and Concord on April 19, 1775,

Let this be the shot that is heard around the Catholic world. If it leads to war then so be it. Choose a side
 
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The Liturgist

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She's been publicly supporting the supposed right to kill unborn children for her entire political career, well over thirty years, and that's quite a bit more time than was reasonable.

I agree. I think what gave Archbishop Cordileone the impetus needed to move forward at this time is the dramatic increase in Pelosi’s pro-death advocacy, which reached a point where doing what has become a rare thing in the past 60 years or so became a moral imperative that transcended any considerations of ecclesiastical-political backlash (and consequently, an action more likely to withstand the inevitable criticism it will engender).

I am hoping more excommunications will follow, including from the Orthodox churches. Unfortunately, the mainline Protestant churches seem to be taking the exact opposite position, which is helping to drive people to the Roman Catholic Church, but some people instead of moving towards traditional liturgical churches are getting swallowed up by non-denominational heretical megachurches; I have an uncle who, alienated from the United Methodist Church, has been sucked into one of the Prosperity Gospel churches, so your prayers for him are appreciated.
 
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pdudgeon

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The one thing to remember is that ALL of this has already been thru the Hand of God, and He has sifted it as He wishes, and also according to what He knows that we can withstand and endure, with His help.
So while these may be terrible times, He will be there with us.
And we can count on getting thru whatever it is that we have to face with His help, and with His guiding hand.
 
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The Liturgist

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Well living in Massachusetts we are all familiar with this quote

Let this be the shot that is heard around the Catholic world. If it leads to war then so be it. Choose a side

St. Clement, the third Pope of Rome after St. Linus and St. Peter the Apostle, in his famous epistle to the Corinthians, declared that schism was worse than heresy. Fortunately the Roman Catholic Church has successfully recovered from a large number of temporary schisms including a third century schism over Papal succession where St. Hippolytus was effectively an antipope, but who was later martyred along with the Pope and both are venerated, and in the sixth century, there was the Three Chapters controversy that followed Emperor Justinian anathematizing Theodore of Mopsuestia in the somewhat complex series of events that was the Second Council of Constantinople; Theodore, who is venerated as a saint in the Church of the East, was also very popular at the time in Western Europe, and then of course there was a notorious episode where there were three claimants to the Papacy at the end of the Avignon period. All of these schisms were fully resolved (indeed, historically, most were).

A schism is extremely undesirable and only the last resort against intolerable heresy. I do not see anything like that happening in this instance. Roman Catholics have faith in their Church to see problems like this through, and great patience, as I witnessed in the calm and sober reaction to the revocation of Summorum Pontificum, which was not an item of news I personally received with any semblance of equanimity.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm pretty sure that this isn't an excommunication, but I certainly agree that, whatever it is, we need to see a lot more of it.

My understanding is that she was excommunicated, as Archbishop Cordileone specifically referred to Canon 915, which prohibits persons who are excommunicate from receiving Holy Communion.

Edit: After rereading the Archbishop’s remarks to my chagrin I find I am mistaken; whereas in the Orthodox churches with which I am familiar people are routinely excommunicated temporarily as penances and can even inadvertently become excommunicate, for example, if one is unable to attend church for a certain length of time, in the modern Roman Catholic terminology it means something closer to the formal bell book and candle procedure, with the exception of automatic excommunications
Latae sententiae.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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St. Clement, the third Pope of Rome after St. Linus and St. Peter the Apostle, in his famous epistle to the Corinthians, declared that schism was worse than heresy. Fortunately the Roman Catholic Church has successfully recovered from a large number of temporary schisms including a third century schism over Papal succession where St. Hippolytus was effectively an antipope, but who was later martyred along with the Pope and both are venerated, and in the sixth century, there was the Three Chapters controversy that followed Emperor Justinian anathematizing Theodore of Mopsuestia in the somewhat complex series of events that was the Second Council of Constantinople; Theodore, who is venerated as a saint in the Church of the East, was also very popular at the time in Western Europe, and then of course there was a notorious episode where there were three claimants to the Papacy at the end of the Avignon period. All of these schisms were fully resolved (indeed, historically, most were).

A schism is extremely undesirable and only the last resort against intolerable heresy. I do not see anything like that happening in this instance. Roman Catholics have faith in their Church to see problems like this through, and great patience, as I witnessed in the calm and sober reaction to the revocation of Summorum Pontificum, which was not an item of news I personally received with any semblance of equanimity.



I didn't use the word schism but if we or a Bishop are told that those who openly support abortion, especially leaders who are purportedly faithful Catholics cannot be challenged or instructed to refrain from taking communion then it is our duty to tell them they are wrong. We are not called to sit by and be part of those who openly support mortal sin.
 
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Michie

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chevyontheriver

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She doesn't need a rebel priest, she just needs to get in a line where a lay person is distributing communion. I don't think we can expect a lay person to enforce that. Can we?
A well informed lay person who has been told about this should have the courage to decline Nancy Pelosi. But that presumes a priest who informs the lay Eucharistic minister and expects that minister to comply. A rebel priest will not so inform any lay ministers and might even tell them to ignore what the archbishop has written, So we'll see. My bet is Pelosi will be followed by photographers and whatever happens will be news. And that she hand picks a place where they WILL give her communion. But that's just my bet.
 
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chevyontheriver

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She's been publicly supporting the supposed right to kill unborn children for her entire political career, well over thirty years, and that's quite a bit more time than was reasonable.
Yes. This is all past due. And what of the other pro-abortion Catholics? Past due all around. Will there be a massive groundswell among the bishops to be anything but silent about what Cordeleone did?

This goes back to cardinal ex-priest now defrocked McCarrick. He was sent an instructional letter from then cardinal now pope emeritus Ratzinger that said such pro-abortion people should be excluded from communion. He pocketed the letter instead of presentint it to the USCCB. Just one more bit of the massive train wreck that McCarrick caused in the Catholic Church.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The woman is 82. She needs to repent before it's too late. The Archbishop did the right thing, and that makes me happy.
SHE should be cramming for the finals. Not doubling down on abomination. But I expect a tripling down on abomination. Prayers for her that she be jolted into repentance. Nobody should be happy about her spiritual demise.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I am hoping more excommunications will follow, including from the Orthodox churches. Unfortunately, the mainline Protestant churches seem to be taking the exact opposite position, which is helping to drive people to the Roman Catholic Church, but some people instead of moving towards traditional liturgical churches are getting swallowed up by non-denominational heretical megachurches; I have an uncle who, alienated from the United Methodist Church, has been sucked into one of the Prosperity Gospel churches, so your prayers for him are appreciated.
Your uncle might be in a better place in the non-denom mega prosperity group if he was in a totally woke Methodist congregation. There is hope for him coming around. He may have entered a halfway house for a while before seeing the truth of Traditional Christianity. Abundant prayers.
 
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chevyontheriver

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My understanding is that she was excommunicated, as Archbishop Cordileone specifically referred to Canon 915, which prohibits persons who are excommunicate from receiving Holy Communion.

Edit: After rereading the Archbishop’s remarks to my chagrin I find I am mistaken; whereas in the Orthodox churches with which I am familiar people are routinely excommunicated temporarily as penances and can even inadvertently become excommunicate, for example, if one is unable to attend church for a certain length of time, in the modern Roman Catholic terminology it means something closer to the formal bell book and candle procedure, with the exception of automatic excommunications
Latae sententiae.
And Latae sententia excommunications are a bother because they are not publicly declared, so nobody knows who is excommunicated for the most part. Canonist Ed Peters has written extensively about the practical failures of such an excommunication. It is a poor substitute for real excommunication. And only devised as a substitute for ecclesial spine, sorely lacking these days.
 
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The Liturgist

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My understanding is that she was excommunicated, as Archbishop Cordileone specifically referred to Canon 915, which prohibits persons who are excommunicate from receiving Holy Communion.

Edit: After rereading the Archbishop’s remarks to my chagrin I find I am mistaken; whereas in the Orthodox churches with which I am familiar people are routinely excommunicated temporarily as penances and can even inadvertently become excommunicate, for example, if one is unable to attend church for a certain length of time, in the modern Roman Catholic terminology it means something closer to the formal bell book and candle procedure, with the exception of automatic excommunications
Latae sententiae.


And Latae sententia excommunications are a bother because they are not publicly declared, so nobody knows who is excommunicated for the most part. Canonist Ed Peters has written extensively about the practical failures of such an excommunication. It is a poor substitute for real excommunication. And only devised as a substitute for ecclesial spine, sorely lacking these days.


Actually, I am confused - is this an excommunication or if not, what is the correct term for this and what is the difference between this and being excommunicate? Throughout my career I’ve understood excommunication as principally, exclusion from Holy Communion, and anathema as exclusion from the Church, with the Protestant concept of disfellowshipping a watered down version of the latter. How does the Roman Catholic Church use this terminology at present? My understanding is that Pelosi incurred what in prior centuries would have been referred to in the Catholic Church as a minor excommunication.

Also, there is Canon 1329 which causes one who is a crucial accessory to the commission of a sin that incurs an automatic excommunication Latae sententiae , and Canon 1398 excommunicated Latae Sententiae with absolution reserved to the Pope (in practice, handled by the Apostolic Penitentiary using a special procedure where the priest who hears the initial confession communicates the details of the case to the Apostolic Penitentiary using a psuedonym for the penitent to protect their privacy and the seal of the confessional, and the Apostolic Penitentiary* then replies as appropriate.

Now, forgive my ignorance, but wouldn’t Archbishop Cordileone’s invocation of Canon 915 have the effect of suggesting that there is a latae sententiate excommunication? He did not explicitly say it was reserved to the Pope, but is there any other canon law she could have violated? Or does canon 1329 not become reserved to the Holy See even if the sin aided and abetted, in this case canon 1398, is reserved?

I find myself hankering for the relative simplicity of the Pedalion, but I imagine if our roles were reversed you would be hankering for the clarity and objectivity of the Code of Canon Law (since Orthodox churches don’t have canon laws so much as they have canons in the ancient Greek meaning of the term, which is to say, guidelines, due to the principles of exactness and economy which allow canons to be waved, applied but with greatly reduced penances, applied strictly, or economized out of existence, for example, the ancient canons prohibiting clergy from attending theatrical performances or eating or spending the night in a tavern (which made sense in the 6th century when theaters were houses of lewd entertainments and taverns were inextricably associated with immoral acts prohibited everywhere in the US except for certain rural counties in Nevada). I want to learn as much as someone other than a canon lawyer reasonably can learn about Catholic canon law, however, so as to be able to contrast it with the Eastern Orthodox and the very obscure Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian canon law (the Eastern Orthodox make use of the Apostolic Canons, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox use the Didascalia, an ancient church order similar to the Didache, and even include it in some editions of their Bible).

Pursuant to this end, if anyone has heard of any works comparing Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox canon law, or the separate Codes of Canon Law for the Roman Church and the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches, that would be of great interest to me.

*This institute should not be confused with the small prison in the Vatican where a few years back some officials accused of corruption were detained during a trial; my understanding is the Vatican Gendarmerie and other security forces (the Swiss Guard) generally make use of Italian prisons, for example, when the Gendarmes arrest a pickpocket in the Piazza San Pietro.
 
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