Bp. Schneider: Open letter accusing Pope Francis of heresy ‘went too far’

[redleghunter]

May 17, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) — The signers of the recent open letter accusing Pope Francis of heresy “went too far,” Bishop Athanasius Schneider said, and the examples given for the charge do not constitute “formal” heresy.

While the pope in practice has at times denied the truth, he said, the distinction between formal and material heresy must be made. Formal heresy, he said, would happen if the pope were to “publicly and explicitly” in a “formal statement” deny a “revealed truth.”

“There were a lot of ambiguities, I would say more ambiguities,” said Schneider, “and practical collaboration in the spreading of wrong teaching in the Church.”

More at link:
Bp. Schneider: Open letter accusing Pope Francis of heresy ‘went too far’ | News | LifeSite

Open letter here:
http://www.ncregister.com/images/up...83.758504861.1558212791-2089827134.1557206208

Did the signers of this letter go too far? Not far enough? Or did the letter accurately address what needs answering? Poll up.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi RLG,

I voted NO because I live in a Catholic country, know catholic doctrine and have many catholic friends and also know a few priests personallly.

The Catholic church is in a turmoil.
Everyone is expecting some kind of schism.
I ask them: But who will have to leave?
The Pope and HIS followers, or those against the Pope?

They think those against the Pope will have to eventually leave and become the "remnant".

He has caused many debates and the cc is not as united in its teaching as it used to be....this unification of teaching, BTW, was a result of the Council of Trent, which I believe we were discussing yesterday. (or maybe not).

Could I ask why you're interested? (if you care to respond).

 

[redleghunter]

Could I ask why you're interested? (if you care to respond).

Many family members and close friends are Roman Catholic. This comes up in conversation. It comes up mostly because I was raised and educated Roman Catholic.

So I like to get the pulse of our Catholic and Orthodox friends here on CF.

 

[redleghunter]

The Catholic church is in a turmoil.
Everyone is expecting some kind of schism.
I ask them: But who will have to leave?
The Pope and HIS followers, or those against the Pope?

This is something @chevyontheriver amd I discussed in a similar thread.

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't know what the Catholic church calls heresy exactly but reading the letter it sounded like modernism. I've been following Chevy's discussion and looking up some of the terms and names involved, very interesting stuff.

 

[GodsGrace101]

This is something @chevyontheriver amd I discussed in a similar thread.

Did you two agree with the catholics here?
Who is going to have to leave if it comes to that?
(not that we could really know...just an opinion).

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I voted no. Having been born and raised as a Roman Catholic for 22 years, it was essentially this very reason that I could no longer call myself Catholic. Putting aside all the other Roman Catholic doctrines, the moment that I could no longer regard the Pope as the "Vicar of Christ", all of the doctrines founded on apostolic succession unravel. If the Pope is wrong about the things mentioned in the letter, what has Popes gotten wrong in the past? How then can I be certain that the Assumption of Mary or the Immaculate Conception is wrong? What about purgatory? I concluded that scripture alone is the only solid ground that I could trust with my soul.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I voted no. Having been born and raised as a Roman Catholic for 22 years, it was essential this very reason that I could no longer call myself Catholic. Putting aside all the other Roman Catholic doctrines, the moment that I could no longer regard the Pope as the "Vicar of Christ", all of the doctrines founded on apostolic succession unravel. If the Pope is wrong about the things mentioned in the letter, what has Popes gotten wrong in the past? How then can I be certain that the Assumption of Mary or the Immaculate Conception is wrong? What about purgatory? I concluded that scripture alone is the only solid ground that I could trust with my soul.

Don't feel so bad...
I know a couple of priests that don't believe purgatory exists....actually some catholic theologians do not...but it's not widely reported.

This is why I like the Early Church Father's....up till 325 AD and the Council of Nicea when, after that, all started to unravel.

I also used to be catholic.

 

[Concord1968]

I don't know what the Catholic church calls heresy exactly but reading the letter it sounded like modernism. I've been following Chevy's discussion and looking up some of the terms and names involved, very interesting stuff.

The Catholic church has been controlled by the Modernists since Vatican II. Pope Franky is just the first who's been open about it.

 

[Concord1968]

.

 

[mark kennedy]

The Catholic church has been controlled by the Modernists since Vatican II. Pope Franky is just the first who's been open about it.

Benedict seemed pretty traditional and conservative to me. Pope Francis is strangely liberal, something I nevet that I'd see in a Pope.

 

[Concord1968]

Benedict seemed pretty traditional and conservative to me.

Things aren't always as they seem. Compared to, say, Pius XII, he was a flaming lib.

 

[Major1]

Did you two agree with the catholics here?
Who is going to have to leave if it comes to that?
(not that we could really know...just an opinion).

I just have to ask this question which I am sure that others are thinking...…..
How does what the Pope said recently stand as heresy when there are so many other RCC teachings that are even more severe?

Just for an example: There is not one single Scripture that speaks to, supports or even suggests support for Apostolic succession. But it is the accepted teaching of the RCC by which the Pope is declared as an Apostle.

Not arguing, just asking the question as to why this is all of a sudden a crisis.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I just have to ask this question which I am sure that others are thinking...…..
How does what the Pope said recently stand as heresy when there are so many other RCC teachings that are even more severe?

Just for an example: There is not one single Scripture that speaks to, supports or even suggests support for Apostolic succession. But it is the accepted teaching of the RCC by which the Pope is declared as an Apostle.

Not arguing, just asking the question as to why this is all of a sudden a crisis.

When the Pope says something that is contrary to the Magesterium of the church...it is considered heresy.
I learned over the weekend that some bishops in the U.S. have called for his resignation due to heretical remarks. There was a big problem when he stated (although vaguely) that remarried couples could receive communion in some cases - the some cases have turned into almost all cases; the decision would be up to the priest.

I don't know that the Pope is declared an Apostle. I can't remember this.

As to your question of Apostolic succession,,,I have to say that it's correct and is just plain history which could be checked by anyone. There's no doubt that the catholic church was the first church created during and after the Apostolic times.

It wouldn't be in the bible because the bible was not put together yet.

I just want to mention that I'm Protestant...I'm not here to argue with anyone...

 

[GoingByzantine]

I just have to ask this question which I am sure that others are thinking...…..
How does what the Pope said recently stand as heresy when there are so many other RCC teachings that are even more severe?

Just for an example: There is not one single Scripture that speaks to, supports or even suggests support for Apostolic succession. But it is the accepted teaching of the RCC by which the Pope is declared as an Apostle.

Not arguing, just asking the question as to why this is all of a sudden a crisis.

Well, apostolic succession is not just a doctrine of the RCC, it is also a belief of other high liturgical churches that stems back through the centuries. The practice according to most high liturgical traditions dates to the Church of Acts, when the apostles laid their hands on the followers of Christ, and appointed elders and leaders in each local community. See for instance, Acts 6:3-6.

It is believed that these commissions have been passed on through the centuries and that they represent an unbroken unity within the church.

The more troubling aspects of Catholicism in my mind are the dogmatic things like the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, Supremacy etc. It is for these reasons, in good conscience, that I had to leave the Catholic Church behind. I just can't get behind the Pope being the "vicar of Christ", and the idea that his teaching is infallible. The Pope is a human like all the rest of us, prone to make errors and mistakes. The shear legalism that exists to mitigate this fact became too much for me to try to defend anymore.

 

[Major1]

When the Pope says something that is contrary to the Magesterium of the church...it is considered heresy.
I learned over the weekend that some bishops in the U.S. have called for his resignation due to heretical remarks. There was a big problem when he stated (although vaguely) that remarried couples could receive communion in some cases - the some cases have turned into almost all cases; the decision would be up to the priest.

I don't know that the Pope is declared an Apostle. I can't remember this.

As to your question of Apostolic succession,,,I have to say that it's correct and is just plain history which could be checked by anyone. There's no doubt that the catholic church was the first church created during and after the Apostolic times.

It wouldn't be in the bible because the bible was not put together yet.

I just want to mention that I'm Protestant...I'm not here to argue with anyone...

I am right there with you sister.

All I do is post the Scriptures and allow them to speak to us.

Some people get angry with that but their anger is misplaced as it is God who wrote the Scriptures and not me.

 

[Major1]

Well, apostolic succession is not just a doctrine of the RCC, it is also a belief of other high liturgical churches that stems back through the centuries. The practice according to most high liturgical traditions dates to the Church of Acts, when the apostles laid their hands on the followers of Christ, and appointed elders and leaders in each local community. See for instance, Acts 6:3-6.

It is believed that these commissions have been passed on through the centuries and that they represent an unbroken unity within the church.

The more troubling aspects of Catholicism in my mind are the dogmatic things like the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, Supremacy etc. It is for these reasons, in good conscience, that I had to leave the Catholic Church behind. I just can't get behind the Pope being the "vicar of Christ", and the idea that his teaching is infallible. The Pope is a human like all the rest of us, prone to make errors and mistakes. The shear legalism that exists to mitigate this fact became too much for me to try to defend anymore.

I agree with you 100%.

My friend, I personally do not understand how anyone can read the Scriptures, then the doctrines of the RCC and not see the problem between the two.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I agree with you 100%.

My friend, I personally do not understand how anyone can read the Scriptures, then the doctrines of the RCC and not see the problem between the two.

Hi Major 1,
I agree with you because if anything about Mary was important, it would have been written of in the N.T.

The CC accepts these ideas about Mary because they accept docs outside of the N.T. For instance, there's a lot written about Mary in the The Protoevangelium of James.

Of course whether we want to believe it or not is a toss up. I prefer to stick to scripture.

source: CHURCH FATHERS: Protoevangelium of James (a catholic site)

 

[anna ~ grace]

The Holy Father has been repeatedly asked to clarify many spoken and written statements he has made which seem to call good evil, and evil good.

This is especially important, as millions of souls look up to him as a teacher, leader, shepherd, and as hopefully someone very near to God. If he teaches error, he risks many souls being lead down a path they may not be able to come up from.

Many, many wise, gracious, respectful Catholics have gently, respectfully asked the Holy Father for clarity, and to reinforce what the Church has always taught. He does not seem to want to clearly do this.

I don't think these letters go too far. We should not need them, but it seems we do. We, Catholic Christians, and hopefully non-Catholic Christians, can and should respect the man, and the office. It is an ancient office. And worthy of respect. But we may also plead with the Roman Pontiff for clarity, orthodoxy, and to reinforce Truth. If he does not or can not, we must continue to trust in and obey Christ, and pray for a man who seems to need our prayers very much.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The Holy Father has been repeatedly asked to clarify many spoken and written statements he has made which seem to call good evil, and evil good.

This is especially important, as millions of souls look up to him as a teacher, leader, shepherd, and as hopefully someone very near to God. If he teaches error, he risks many souls being lead down a path they may not be able to come up from.

Many, many wise, gracious, respectful Catholics have gently, respectfully asked the Holy Father for clarity, and to reinforce what the Church has always taught. He does not seem to want to clearly do this.

The CC is changing and the traditiional catholics cannot accept this.

One of my catholic friends has told me that her spiritual advisor has flat out told her that she needs to stop depending on the church and start to depend only on Jesus.

Praise God...I've been telling her this for years.
(she's a traditionalist).