Both Republicans and Democrats are Equally Eager to Vote in November

rambot

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A single article by "scientists" does not constitute being "roundly panned".
You're right. It was the roundly panning of the article that made me think it was roundly panned. Sorry, I'm not gonna go find the dozen or so critiques that are easily googleable. I just thought I'd put this article up as a summary. ARe you going to continue to use that citation to support your argument?

Your argument is that parents of kids in poor schools don't care about their child's education?
I mention that (Because some truly don't; they have other things to worry about).
EVen though some don't that's not the main crux of my argument. The Main point is that they don't have the ability or willingness to support their kids' education the way more affluent families do.


I'm a bit concerned that you're a teacher and don't know the proper usage of affect/effect.
[giggle] Ok. Please help me then.

But I digress. The learning loss from the pandemic is clear, and it was much worse in states with democratic governors where schools were closed considerably longer than in republican states. There was a clear political divide on school closings, and kids paid dearly.

The Pandemic Erased Two Decades of Progress in Math and Reading
so what?
1) I can't read paywall blocked articles.
2) I can't see the study itself to see what measures were taken.
3) Poverty had a greater correlation to poor results and more pronounced learning missed/loss. I mean the impoverished were in ALL ways hit hardest with the shut downs.

If you choose to not wear a shirt to McDondald's, you can be denied a greasy Big Mac because the store's policies require shirt and shoes for service.
And if you go in without a mask, they can refuse to offer you service as well.
I fail to see what makes my analogy so weak. I assume you think the effects are not comparable and therefore the analogy falls apart.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are unalienable rights that don't come with a footnote that requires COVID vaccination. Ostracizing and "othering" people who chose not to be vaccinated is not in any way akin to refusing to give someone a Big Mac.
What do you mean when you say "othering"? I mean it sounds pretty gentle. It is like, someone said something mean about you?

It's funny to me that minorities have been experiencing "ostracizing and othering" for generations and now there is a huge contingent of America that doesn't want to talk about it....AT ALL. But whoa, YELL it from the mountain and claim victimhood if they ignore mainstream medical advice and there is a CONSEQUENCE from it.
 
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rambot

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Interesting comment.

Have you seen what they've done in China? Sending people off to COVID camps if they test positive for the virus? Have you seen the conditions of these camps? Have you seen the armed soldiers that won't let people leave until they test negative?

Does that sound like jail? I mean, technically there are no bars (that I've seen), so it's probably not "jail" in the literal sense of the word. But perhaps you're OK with that too. I mean, everyone should just shut up and obey orders, right?
That sounds EXACTLY like not being able to eat at Chipotles.
 
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probinson

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Exactly how were you coerced and by whom?

Not sure if serious...

Are you completely unaware of all of the countless things that unvaccinated people were disallowed to do when they were still lying about vaccines protecting others?
 
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probinson

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My apologies. I did not know you lived in China. That is appalling and I hope you can get back to normal life as soon as is possible.

Stay safe. Living in China must be tough for you and yours.

Are you suggesting it's only appropriate to comment on human rights violations in the name of COVID mitigation in China if one lives in China?

That can't be what you're saying... is it?
 
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probinson

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ARe you going to continue to use that citation to support your argument?

Yes. Contrary to your assertion, it was not "roundly panned". Lockdowns were a disastrous policy decision that did little to nothing to slow the virus spread and resulted in immense collateral damage. This was known and knowable prior to the pandemic. EVERY established pandemic preparedness plan advised AGAINST such draconian measures. We are now living through the results of these foolish decisions.

3) Poverty had a greater correlation to poor results and more pronounced learning missed/loss. I mean the impoverished were in ALL ways hit hardest with the shut downs.

Agreed. And again, this was quite knowable. Consider this pandemic preparedness report published by the ACLU in January 2008. It's almost prophetic in nature. You'll note that they use the terms "discriminatory" and "forcible" when speaking of vaccination and quarantine measures.

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous. Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases. Specifically:

  • Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary. In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.
  • On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work. Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases. They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease. As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.
  • Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures.
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf

And if you go in without a mask, they can refuse to offer you service as well.
Sure they can. And then I refuse to patronize their business and go somewhere else where logic prevails.

I fail to see what makes my analogy so weak. I assume you think the effects are not comparable and therefore the analogy falls apart.

Being refused a Big Mac and being refused gainful employment in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness are hardly the same thing.

What do you mean when you say "othering"? I mean it sounds pretty gentle. It is like, someone said something mean about you?

I'm shocked that you (seemingly) support "othering" of unvaccinated people (although you prefer to soften that support by calling it "consequences"), yet don't know what it means.

Othering is a phenomenon in which some individuals or groups are defined and labeled as not fitting in within the norms of a social group. It is an effect that influences how people perceive and treat those who are viewed as being part of the in-group versus those who are seen as being part of the out-group.

Othering also involves attributing negative characteristics to people or groups that differentiate them from the perceived normative social group.

It is an “us vs. them” way of thinking about human connections and relationships. This process essentially involves looking at others and saying "they are not like me" or "they are not one of us."

Othering is a way of negating another person's individual humanity and, consequently, those that are have been othered are seen as less worthy of dignity and respect.

What Is Othering?
But whoa, YELL it from the mountain and claim victimhood if they ignore mainstream medical advice and there is a CONSEQUENCE from it.
I don't think that "mainstream medical advice" means what you think it means.

For example, the US CDC recommends that all people >5 SHOULD get a bivalent booster, while other countries won't even offer a booster to anyone under the age of 65. Which of those is the "mainstream medical advice" you are referring to?

Informed consent is a critical part of taking ANY medical advice, and when the government intrudes and declares that you can't participate in society unless you comply with their demands, informed consent is no longer possible.
 
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lismore

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In this country in February 2020 there was a call to close the border before COVID came into the country, but the government dithered, wasted time and then when cases were spreading instituted a long and costly series of lockdowns. My colleague's son was in Uganda at the time, they closed the border and he was stuck there for the best part of a year, but cases there were miniscule compared to the USA and the UK. :)
 
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probinson

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In this country in February 2020 there was a call to close the border before COVID came into the country, but the government dithered, wasted time and then when cases were spreading instituted a long and costly series of lockdowns. My colleague's son was in Uganda at the time, they closed the border and he was stuck there for the best part of a year, but cases there were miniscule compared to the USA and the UK. :)

Closing borders to stop respiratory viruses does not work. We've known this since long before COVID came along.

Check out these snippets from the UK's pandemic preparedness plan;

UKPlanningSummary.jpg


UKInternationalTravel.jpg


I'd also ask you to consider the collateral damage. When people point to lockdowns as "working", they are myopically focused on the number of infections. But what about other issues? What about the elderly dying in isolation of loneliness? What about the increase in suicides and mental health problems in our children and teens? What about the learning loss that will impact students for years to come? What about the increases in world hunger? What about the people who lost their businesses and their livelihoods? What about the poor students that relied on school meals going hungry because their schools were closed? The list goes on and on.

Here is a website where you can read all about the collateral damages of the COVID mitigation measures imposed by governments the world over.

Home - Collateral Global
 
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lismore

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Closing borders to stop respiratory viruses does not work.

The issue is that they did close the border- after the damage was done. After the virus was spreading they brought in lockdowns and closed the border. Too late. Then after the first wave had passed they opened the border again and got the South African variant. If the virus hadn't been able to get into the country, no need for a lockdown. Closing the border worked in other countries. The Medieval Republic of Venice found a way to stop pandemics, isolating an infected ship for forty days, quaranta giorni, from whence comes the name quarantine. Getting vaccines and lockdowns only became an issue because countries like the USA and the UK kept the borders open, when they should have been closed to 100% of persons.
 
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probinson

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The issue is that they did close the border- after the damage was done.

No. The issue is that border closures don't work to stop the spread of a respiratory virus.

After the virus was spreading they brought in lockdowns and closed the border. Too late.

The virus was almost certainly in circulation long before anyone had any idea what was happening (which is one reason border closures are so ineffective). Perhaps as early as October 2019;

Covid-19 May Have Started Spreading As Early As October 2019 In China, U.K.-Led Study Suggests

You're saying they should have closed the borders in February, a full 4 months after COVID was already spreading.

Then after the first wave had passed they opened the border again and got the South African variant. If the virus hadn't been able to get into the country, no need for a lockdown.

You seem to be under the misguided impression that closing the border stops a virus from entering. You also seem to be blissfully unaware of just how much we depend on trade with other countries in the world economy, and how unrealistic border closures are. EVERY pandemic preparedness plan before COVID said that societal lockdowns and border closures, along with quarantining healthy people, Would. Not. Work. Yet for some inexplicable reason, everyone threw out decades of established knowledge and practices.

Closing the border worked in other countries.
No, it really didn't.

The Medieval Republic of Venice found a way to stop pandemics, isolating an infected ship for forty days, quaranta giorni, from whence comes the name quarantine.
Yes. Quarantining people who are sick is an effective, evidence-based measure to stop the spread of disease. Quarantining every person in the country is not.

Getting vaccines and lockdowns only became an issue because countries like the USA and the UK kept the borders open, when they should have been closed to 100% of persons.

Let's see what the WHO has to say about border closures (emphasis added);

WHO continues to advise against the application of travel or trade restrictions to countries experiencing COVID-19 outbreaks.

In general, evidence shows that restricting the movement of people and goods during public health emergencies is ineffective in most situations and may divert resources from other interventions. Furthermore, restrictions may interrupt needed aid and technical support, may disrupt businesses, and may have negative social and economic effects on the affected countries. However, in certain circumstances, measures that restrict the movement of people may prove temporarily useful, such as in settings with few international connections and limited response capacities.

Updated WHO recommendations for international traffic in relation to COVID-19 outbreak

Read that again. Closing borders is ineffective in most situations.
 
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Larniavc

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Not sure if serious...

Are you completely unaware of all of the countless things that unvaccinated people were disallowed to do when they were still lying about vaccines protecting others?
So no governmental force was used? Quel surprise. You chose to get vaxxed. Own it.

Souds very hypocritical of you.
 
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Larniavc

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Are you suggesting it's only appropriate to comment on human rights violations in the name of COVID mitigation in China if one lives in China?

That can't be what you're saying... is it?
If you don’t live in China why bring it up in a conversation questioning whether you were forced by your government to get vaxxed?

You chose to get vaxxed. Along with choosing to get your daughter vaxxed.
 
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Larniavc

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Coerced is the word you're looking for. Do you know what the word coerced means?
Yes. You could have chose not to acquiesce but you did. For all your pontificating you went ahead and got vaxxed and let your daughter be coerced.

Many, many people chose not to get vaxxed. They were able to resist this so called coercion: you hypocrite.
 
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probinson

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Yes. You could have chose not to acquiesce but you did. For all your pontificating you went ahead and got vaxxed and let your daughter be coerced.

Many, many people chose not to get vaxxed. They were able to resist this so called coercion: you hypocrite.

^_^

So let me get this "logic" straight; If I don't get vaxxed, then I should just be OK with being ostracized from society, losing my job, not being allowed to associate with those who complied, but if I do "choose" (by your perverted definition of the word) to acquiesce to the coercion, that makes me a hypocrite?

The government is lucky to have so many willing useful idiots to push their propaganda.
 
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Larniavc

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If I don't get vaxxed, then I should just be OK with being ostracized from society, losing my job, not being allowed to associate with those who complied,
If it's so useless yet deadly you'd be a fool not to. What job were you and your daughter going to be sacked from if you were vaccinated?
 
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probinson

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If it's so useless yet deadly you'd be a fool not to.
Huh? Please point to the post where I said the vaccine was "useless" and/or "deadly". You're just making nonsense up now.

What job were you and your daughter going to be sacked from if you were vaccinated?

I already told you how we were coerced. See if you can find it in my previous posts. I'll give you a hint; it was my first response to you in this thread.
 
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Larniavc

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My son was selected to perform at Carnegie Hall in New York City. As we all know, NYC was militant about COVID mitigations, and there were mandates all over the place. So for him and my family to participate in this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, we all had to be vaccinated to comply with all of the idiotic mandates.
So you had every choice in the world. All it took was the choice between watching your son play music or not. Show some responsibility.
 
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probinson

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So you had every choice in the world. All it took was the choice between watching your son play music or not. Show some responsibility.

Hey! Congratulations on finding the reason we were coerced! I knew you could do it! People were coerced in all kinds of different ways.

I'm somewhat surprised that discriminating against my son for no reason is A-OK in your book. But then I've been surprised by the number of people who are A-OK being on the wrong side of history all throughout this pandemic.
 
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Larniavc

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Hey! Congratulations on finding the reason we were coerced! I knew you could do it! People were coerced in all kinds of different ways.

I'm somewhat surprised that discriminating against my son for no reason is A-OK in your book. But then I've been surprised by the number of people who are A-OK being on the wrong side of history all throughout this pandemic.
The level of hypocrisy is incredibly. You pontificate through multiple post about not taking the vaccine but as soon as you had a reason to do so (watching a concert) you jumped at the chance to get your whole family vaxxed when you ‘knew’ the dangers it had.
 
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