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Both/And Free Will and Predestination

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by SheepOfTheFold, Nov 19, 2017.

  1. SheepOfTheFold

    SheepOfTheFold New Member

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    From a purely rational standpoint, if God's ways are above our ways, and his thoughts above our thoughts: why can't this ceaseless debate just stop and realize they both are right.

    I believe either side of the divide would grant that if a drop of dew fell in a specific place on a blade of grass, it was in line with His will. Now, coming to humanity, why can't man want to choose what God chose for him to choose? Still man's will wanting to choose that particular thing, and God also determined it'd be that way. God is outside of time, so you could argue that both happened simultaneously: we know that God set beginning and end, perhaps what happens in the middle is free and determined with equal probabilities.

    Obviously I'm not convincing anyone that by human rationale it makes sense, but how many humans have been outside time as God? It easily could be that both/and or neither might be right, but it won't contradict reason obviously.

    All this to say: have a little sympathy for your Calvinist/Arminian brothers: God knows the answer though
     
  2. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is as you say ... we say we believe the scriptures when they say the God's knowledge and understanding is too high for us to attain ...

    ... yet, we embroil ourselves in endless controversy over OUR GUESSES at God's knowledge in these areas ...
     
  3. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    For me, the division that has come out from this argument truly profanes the name (character) of God. Both concepts are clearly found in Scripture... for example..

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


    So in these two verses... we have predestination and the ability to choose. Both exist... what should not be done, but what we have done, is choose one over the other and then square off against whoever chose the other. What we should have done is pray and wait on God to help us reconcile the fact that both exist in Scripture. And there is an answer... but who that chooses a side can hear it?
     
  4. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Well I think that's kind of the answer though. God exists outside of time so He knows all things "in their immediacy" as it's been put. So He can't help but know all at once that which we experience only sequentially. And this means, for us, that we can make our choices freely, within the bounds of that time we have. God may know the outcome, but we don't-so His knowledge becomes sort of moot-in terms of its affect on us and our moral choices-more or less as if He had none.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  5. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Well, they are predestined to choose for Christ. God is the best teacher, he leads those whom He predestined to be conformed to Christ, He is the guarantee of His own will and word.
    All those so taught by the Holy Spirit will come to Christ and be saved, that is His work in you.

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
     
  6. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    I know all the verses, thanks. I can show just as many predestination verses as I can show free will verses... both exist in Scripture. So, again, instead of gravitating to one and ignoring or pitting ourselves against the other... we should accept both and just wait on God to reveal how it reconciles. I have my answer... I am content with it and don't have an issue here any more.

    Be blessed.
    Ken
     
  7. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Your a limited being with a limited understanding while God is not, just as God said His thoughts and His ways are above our own thoughts and ways. So to me what is underneath all this is His everlasting arms, His will is going to be brought to pass as He willed it from before time began.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
    And in Your book they all were written,
    The days fashioned for me,
    When as yet there were none of them.
     
  8. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know... I said nothing to the contrary.
     
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    The whole debate is based on an incorrect understanding of Predestination. The debate is useless because the idea that is being debated isn't found in Scripture.
     
  10. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    We are trying to describe something God only can fully understand in human language. God's understanding and experience of the world is more dissimilar to ours than similar. Of course there's going to be problems.

    I think that's why I like being Lutheran. We simply are not interested in philosophical debates. We acknowledge human responsibility, but we acknowledge that God predestines those who are saved. For us, not only is it Scriptural, but it is a great comfort to know that God intends to finish the good work he started in us in our baptism.
     
  11. Epiphoskei

    Epiphoskei Senior Veteran

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    This is standard Calvinism. The term is Compatibilism .
     
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