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Featured BORN AGAIN WITH GOD'S SPIRIT? CAN GOD'S SPIRIT LEAVE US?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, May 28, 2019.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello all,

    If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us? If YES then how? If NO then why not? (SCRIPTURE PLEASE). Some thoughts from the scriptures below for consideration.

    ...............

    Let's start with an interesting view on Ephesians 4:30 which I believe can have many complimentary (not contradictory) applications not just the one below (It is God's Word after all)

    EPHESIANS 4:30 [30], And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, in whom ye were SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

    Note; the Greek word used in this warning for sealed is σφραγίζω; sphragizō to stamp as a private mark for security or preservation. It does not mean that God's Spirit cannot leave or depart us.

    So the meaning applied here is that the Holy Spirit is given to BELIEVERS as a sign of preservation or mark in the "present tense".

    Note here also that the scripture tells us that we are SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEPTION. Or the Holy Spirit SEALS BELIEVERS TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION!

    The Greek word for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION is ἀπολύτρωσις; apolutrōsis which means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

    This has direct reference to the cross and the ransom JESUS paid for out sins at Calvery (day of redemption). It also has reference to the 2nd coming but let's focus on the literal Greek meaning here for a minute as we cannot have the one without the other. The Greek word REDEMPTION used here means; the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

    The meaning here has the implication that BELIEVERS are SEALED with God's SPIRIT not because of anything we have done, but because of the revelation of God's LOVE revealed at the cross which is the day of redemption which is the act of ransom paid in full or Christian salvation and deliverance where God sent His only begotten son to die the death that we deserve so that whosoever BELIEVES on Him should not perish but have everylasting life *JOHN 3:16.

    An application of the scriptures here meaning that the Holy Spirit seals us to the DAY OF REDEMPTION or ties and links BELIEVERS to the day that JESUS paid the ransom for our sins; paid the price of our sins and died the death that we deserve to die so that we can be reconciled to God not to die for our sins; we have been redeemed from our sins; saved from our sins through FAITH to be called the sons and daughters of God.

    The application of the scriptures here meaning that the HOLY SPIRIT leads BELIEVERS and SEALS them to the cross of JESUS so that whosever believes in the gift of God's dear son should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16.

    ..............

    Now let's link the above scripture in EPHESIANS 4:30 with the WARNINGS from God's WORD not to GRIEVE God's Spirit and what is the results or outcome of GRIEVING God's Spirit?

    EPHESIANS 4:30 [30], And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption.

    HEBREWS 3:17 [17], BUT WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?

    PSALMS 95:10-11 [10], Forty years long was I GRIEVED with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: [11], To whom I swore in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

    HEBREWS 3:10-11; 17-19 [10], Why I was GRIEVED with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

    [17], BUT WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? [18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19], So we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.

    PSALMS 119:158 [158], I BEHELD THE TRANSGRESSORS AND WAS GRIEVED; because they kept not your word.

    GOD is GRIEVED by SIN and the wages of sin is death in all those who reject the gift of God's dear son...

    GENESIS 6:5-7 [5], And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6], And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it GRIEVED HIM AT HIS HEART. [7], And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repents me that I have made them.

    .....................

    IF WE DO NOT REPENT FROM KNOWN SIN WE DO NOT HAVE GOD'S SPIRIT or FORGIVENESS

    ACT 2:38 [38], Then Peter said to them, REPENT, AND BE BAPTISED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.

    ACT 3:19 [19], REPENT YOU THEREFORE AND BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS MAY BE BLOTTED OUT, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

    ACT 8:22 [22], REPENT THEREFORE OF THIS YOUR WICKEDNESS, AND PRAY GOD, IF PERHAPS THE THOUGHT OF YOUR HEART MAY BE FORGIVEN YOU.

    ACT 17:30 [30], And the TIMES OF IGNORANCE GOD WINKED AT; BUT NOW CALLS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.

    ............

    ACT 26:20 [20],
    But showed first to them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that THEY SHOULD REPENT AND TURN TO GOD AND DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE.

    ...........

    KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN GRIEVES GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT and will keep all those who CONTINUE in it OUT of God's KINGDOM just like it was in the days of NOAH so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man (Matthew 24:37-39).

    ...........

    If we are born again to love with God's Spirit, can the Spirit of God leave us?

    If YES than how?

    If NO then why not? (SCRIPTURE PLEASE).

    Thanks for sharing.

    God bless
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    GRIEVING God's Spirit results in us falling and away from God's Word...

    HEBREWS 3:7-19
    [7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    [9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
    [12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
    [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
    [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
    [15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
    [16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    [17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
    [18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
    [19], So we see that they could not enter in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

    2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4
    Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10
    The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

    HEBREWS 6:4-8
    [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
    [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    2 PETER 2:20-22
    [20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
    [21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
    [22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    Yep seems Peter thinks that you can know and follow God and then turn back from God to follow SIN and leave God....

    links to....

    HEBREWS 10:26-31
    26, FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
    27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
    28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29, OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
    30,
    For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31, IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

    GALATIANS 1:6
    [6] I marvel that you are TURNING AWAY SO SOON from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.

    ACTS 20:28-31
    Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

    HEBREWS 2:1-3
    Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

    HEBREWS 10:35-38
    [35], CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    Seems both PAUL and PETER agree together that you can KNOW GOd have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

    ISAIAH 59:1-3
    1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
    3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

    Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter and Paul that SIN can separate us from GOD.

    EZEKIEL 3:17-21
    [17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
    [18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
    [19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
    [20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
    [21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

    Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

    JOSHUA 23:11-13
    [11], Take good heed therefore to yourselves, that you love the LORD your God.
    [12], ELSE IF YOU IN ANY WISE GO BACK TO JOIN TO THE REMNANNT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU AND SHALL MAKE MARRIAGES WITH THEM AND GO IN UNTO THEM AND THEY TO YOU:
    [13], KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU.; but they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

    Now Joshua is joining Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

    NUMBERS 14:43
    [43], For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, the Lord will not be with you.”

    Now you can also add Moses to Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

    JAMES 5:19
    [19], My brothers, IF ANY AMONG YOU WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH AND SOMEONE BRINGS HIM BACK, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

    Seems also James agrees with Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

    JEREMIAH 3:8-14
    [8], And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
    [9], And it came to pass through the lightness of her prostitution, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
    [10], And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to me with her whole heart, but feignedly, said the LORD.
    [11], And the LORD said to me, The backsliding Israel has justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
    [12], Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN FAITHLESS ISRAEL, declares the Lord. I will not look on you in anger, for I am merciful, declares the Lord; I will not be angry forever.
    [13], Only acknowledge your iniquity, that you have transgressed against the LORD your God, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every green tree, and you have not obeyed my voice, said the LORD.
    [14], TURN O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, said the LORD; for I am married to you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

    Looks like we can add Jeremaiah to James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

    JOEL 2:13
    [13], And rend your hearts and not your garments. RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

    LUKE 8:13
    [13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

    Well here so far we have Joel, Jeremaiah, James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter, Luke and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and FALL AWAY back into SIN.

    ................

    CONCLUSION
    : We can GREIVE God's Spirit if we continue in known unrepentant sin and he will depart from us and leave us over to strong delusions if we do not receive and love the truth.

    God bless
     
  3. BrotherD

    BrotherD Thus Saith The Lord

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    Hello LGW, how are you?

    You said:
    I still struggle with sinning but repenting and asking for forgiveness. I ask for forgiveness sometimes immediately or before the day is out. My question is you said know unrepentant sin, but does it still grieve him if we sin period?

    Also i wouldn't say i have his Holy Spirit yet but i believe based on this:

    Acts 19:2 KJV — He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Would the disciples be considered just believers (while they walked with Christ) until they received the Holy Spirit?

    How would one truly know that they have his spirit?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi Brother D, nice to see you again.

    Just wanted to say hi. I do not have much time right now but will get back to your post soon brother.

    God bless
     
  5. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Peter and Paul believed that conversion to Christ is having the Spirit, and not having the Spirit means that the person is not converted. They did not believe that a person can be a genuine convert without the Spirit.
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I think that you are applying hermeneutics (interpreting Scripture according to modern culture and mind-set) without taking the time to do accurate exegesis (interpreting Scripture in the context in which it was written),

    The original writers of the passages you are quoting have no idea of the modern mind-set. Not all of your references are transcultural.

    Jesus and Paul warned about false prophets and teachers. These are ones who apply Scripture references to suit their own thoughts and ideas, rather than examining each Scripture in its original context.
     
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  7. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Day of Redemption does not refer to the day that Jesus died on the cross. Paul is talking about an event in the future. The crucifixion of Christ took place at least 20 years before Paul wrote to the Ephesians. Therefore the sense of the verse does not fit with an event that happened in the past, but a future event.

    We are redeemed by the blood of the lamb when we turned to Christ and were converted. But this has an aspect of "right now" and "not yet". At conversion the person is sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that seal is the "title deed" that the believer has, which will be honoured at the second coming of Christ, the Day of Redemption, when the actual redemption of the converted believer will take place. When an accurate exegesis of the verse is done, it then becomes clear that this is what Paul meant, and how the Ephesians understood him.

    To then take the passage and apply it to modern believers by giving a totally different meaning, is faulty hermeneutics and therefore a mis-application of the Scripture.

    ..............

    We have to examine what Paul said about how the Spirit could be grieved. Paul is saying that walking in the works of the flesh, which he explains in Galatians 5, having anger, falsehood, lying, rage, brawling, slander, stealing, and all forms of malice, and, instead, being kind and compassionate, and forgiving one another.

    The Ephesians were Gentiles, who did not come through the Jewish faith to become Christians, so they did not know about or comply with the Law at any stage. They came straight to the Lord out of paganism, and still were working out pagan conduct, even though Paul had said that they were no longer like that, but had been saved by God's grace (Ephesians 2).

    Paul did not say that they were actually grieving the Holy Spirit, but warning them not to. He is also saying that in order not to grieve the Holy Spirit, to continue in their development of sanctification so that they become Christ-like in their conduct.

    These references have nothing to do with what Paul wrote to the Ephesian believers. These are talking about the generation of Israelites who came out of Egypt, but believed the negative report of the spies that came back, and instead of trusting God, especially after seeing His power demonstrated at the Red Sea and Mount Sinai, they disbelieved, and therefore were prevented to enter Canaan. It wasn't the Holy Spirit who was grieved. It was God Himself. These references cannot refer to converted believers in any shape or form. Consistent exegesis, thou art a jewel!

    The psalmist had no knowledge of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection and the gift of salvation. Neither did his readers. He and they would have understood transgressors as those who were transgressing the Law. If anyone tried to tell them about the wages of sin and rejecting the gospel of Christ, they would look at him as if he was mad. They would ask, "What do you mean, and what is the gospel of Christ?" To apply this Psalm to modern believers is irrelevant. Modern believers are free from the Law, so there is nothing to trangress.

    Here is another passage that refers to a culture of violence that was present before the Flood. To do an accurate exegesis of this passage, we have to see how God dealt with the violence that was there at that time. Then we can see clearly that God is not going to send another flood to wipe out humanity as He did then.

    .....................

    This is not written for Christian believers. These references were written to unconverted Jews. The repentance referred to here was a change of attitude, from following the Law to following Christ, receiving Him as Saviour. It is therefore important to see who was doing the speaking, and who were the listeners, what was the intention of the speaker, and how the listeners understood he was saying.

    You will see that anything spoken to Gentiles in order to get them to turn to Christ, the word repent was never used. For Gentiles it was more, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptised".

    Also, the preaching of repentance was from John the Baptiser who was announcing the coming of the Messiah and they needed to get ready for Him. This repentance was was to give up any transgression of the Law, and be ready for the Messiah who is coming in power and glory. When Jesus did start His ministry with gentleness, compassion and love, John doubted that He was the Messiah because He did not fit into the Jewish mind-set. So, he sent some of his disciples to check Jesus out. Jesus preached repentance until the death of John the Baptiser, and then His preaching changed from repentance to announcing the good news of the kingdom of God. This was still not the gospel because He had not died or was resurrected yet. What Jesus was saying was that the kingdom of God had now arrived and was among them.

    This was directed at Simon the sorcerer and not to the converted Samaritans as a whole. It was limited to the one man it was spoken to. To use it for every believer is to pull it right out of its true context.

    Paul is not saying these things to Gentiles, but to Jews, who would understand what repentance means, as I said before. It doesn't apply directly to Gentile believers, nor even Gentile unbelievers. The message of repentance is for Jews. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being baptised is the message for Gentile unbelievers. It is certainly not applicable to Jewish or Gentile believers at all!

    ............

    Paul was addressing his comments to King Agrippa who, although only half Jewish, had a full knowledge of what repentance meant. Paul spoke to him as a Jew to another Jew and spoke in relevant terms that Agrippa would understand. Again, he is not talking to a Christian believer, about other believers.

    ...........

    This is not referring to believers at all. This is because God has fully accepted every genuinely converted believer and they can do no more to try and please Him.

    By doing just simple exegesis of what these Scriptures are actually saying, who is saying them, who is being spoken to, the intention of the author and the understanding of the listeners at the time, I have shown that there is a reasonable doubt about the application of these references to modern converted believers.
     
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  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    This was written by the Apostle to Jewish believers. He does not say that they actually do have a hardened heart of unbelief. He encourages them to maintain their faith in God through all the difficulties they are facing because of their faith in Christ. He is giving the example of a generation of unbelieving Israelites who saw the acts of God but did not know His ways. He says that we will make it to the end if we maintain our confidence in Christ. He is not talking about observance of any laws, or sinless perfection. My view is that we maintain our confidence in Christ in spite of our shortcomings, failures, and sinfulness.
    Paul is not talking about converted believers here, but letting them know that their suffering and persecution is quite normal for believers in this hostile world, and that things are going to get worse as the day of the Lord approaches. He is saying that those who will be deceived by the false signs and wonders are those who are not saved.
    The Apostle is not saying any of the Jewish believers he is writing to have actually got themselves into this state. He is warning about what will happen to those who decide to reject Christ altogether and turn back into the Jewish Law. He is not talking to Gentiles, otherwise he would be talking about them returning to paganism. Therefore, it is the rejection of Christ in favour of the Mosaic Law that brings the judgment, not believers having struggles with sinfulness.
    An examination of the whole chapter reveals that he is not referring to Christian believers at all, neither Jew or Gentile. He is talking about unbelievers and religious hypocrites that have a form of godliness but have not been truly converted. His description through the chapter certainly does not describe genuine believers at all. We need to closely read the whole passage before we try to make it fit into our own ideas.
    No. It doesn't, not in 2 Peter 2 anyway.
    This is just a repeat of the passage you quoted previously.
    This is talking about believers who were brainwashed by Judiasts to become circumcised and follow the Mosiac Law in order to be saved. Not applicable to ordinary believers here.
    True. You need to take this reference seriously as a warning for yourself - in light of the reasonable doubts that I am showing in the way you are applying Scripture references to support your views.
    This is not falling into sin. It is casting away faith in Christ. It is turning away from the grace and mercy of God to having confidence in the Law and the teachings of men who twist the Scripture to fit in with their ideas, and the hero worship of men instead of looking to God.
    This is about Israel falling away from the Lord into idolatry, sacrificing to the Canaanite gods, including Baal. Does not apply to ordinary Christian believers.

    Isaiah's definition of sin is worship of and sacrifice to idols, prophets giving divination instead of the true word of God. Does not apply to "us" at all.

    This was a direct word to Ezekiel to warn Israel to tell the people to stop worshiping false idols and to return to true worship of God and to follow His Law.

    Faulty hermeneutics again. Joshua is saying that they should stay separate from the customs of the pagan nations around them and not to enter into mixed marriages with pagans. But this is what the Israelites did, and lost their promised land as a result. You can't just lift a reference like this out of its context and apply it directly to modern believers.
    My previous comments about Israel going into idolatry apply here as well.

    James is saying is "if", not "when". This is important. It is the same as the safety instructions when flying: "In the unlikely event of an emergency...etc". He is saying that a believer falling away into sin is a rare event and not a common one.

    The Jeremiah passage is quoted out of context, and applies to Israel going into idolatry. It does not directly apply to genuine converts to Christ as you are trying to make out.

    Applies to idolatrous Israel in its true context.
    These are not genuine converts but those who have got religion only and not allowed the Lord to change their hearts. They are ones who don't have the Holy Spirit but just a religious spirit that won't go the distance when things turn to custard.
    Although what you are saying could be true for some religious folk who have put on the Christian "badge" and who fall away in times of strife and persecution, it does not describe the genuinely converted believer who has a new heart and spirit, and who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the promise that Jesus will keep them in the faith until the end.
     
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  9. BrotherD

    BrotherD Thus Saith The Lord

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    Hello my friend.

    From what i read, and correct me if i misunderstand, but are you saying that Jew and Gentile (Christian believers) are seperate?
     
  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What I did in my response to our friend's posts was just a simple exegesis of the references he quoted. I know that in these days, Jewish and Gentile believers are one in Christ. there is no doubt about that.

    My definition of "exegesis" is to interpret the Scripture reference in its original context, the intention of the author, who he was speaking to, and how the listeners of the times understood it. There are also historical, mind-set, and cultural contexts that enhance our understanding of the Scripture reference as it was spoken, taught, and applied at the time when it was first written and spoken.

    My definition of "hermeneutics" is the application and interpretation of the same Scripture to our own time.

    If we try to interpret a passage of Scripture without exegetical understanding, we can make errors and create problems.

    So. in terms of the time before the First Century and during the ministry of Jesus, there were no such people as Gentile converts in Scripture. There were only those who had faith and kept the Law, and those who were unbelieving, idolatrous, and did not keep the Law and needed to repent.

    In the First Century, after Pentecost, there were Jewish converts and Gentile converts. At that time, there were major differences as the Jewish converts needed to be weaned off their Judiast roots, and the Gentile cones weaned off their pagan roots. The Jews already believed in God and had the Old Testament Scriptures as their background; while Gentile believers had come right out of paganism and often didn't have the background of OT Scripture, and so were more likely to receive the letters of Paul as their foundational teaching documents. We need to remember that the letters of Paul were being circulated around the Gentile churches within 20 years of Pentecost. Up to that time, Gentiles were dependent on the oral teaching of Apollos, Paul, Barnabas, Silas and others who moved around the churches. This is why the Galatian churches were so often deceived by the Judaists, and Paul had to write to them to sort things out.

    But by the middle of the 2nd Century, there was a collection of the gospels and the epistles which was leading up to a settled "canon" of Scripture, and so the Jewish and Gentile believers started to have more in common as different generations of believers happened.

    This is my understanding for what it is worth.
     
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother Oscar nice to see you :)

    Posted in all respect brother and in all honesty and shared in love, all I have seen from your posts above here is you trying to argue (without scripture support) that the scriptures provided in the OP here are not written for us or can we understand these scriptures because these scriptures where only written for other people in a different time period therefore do not apply to our time period.

    Sadly I cannot agree with you brother as God's WORD teaches that spiritial things can only be spiritually discerned and that ALL SCRIPTURE is given by God and written for our admonition. God's WORD is not a normal book it is the Word of God. Your way of thinking here is Academic and has application to witten historical literature that is not God's WORD. However, we are dealing here with the scriptures and God's WORD which are not mans Words.

    The only way God's WORD can be understood is by a prayerful study of the scriptures seeking God for His Spirit to be out guide and teacher *JOHN 14:26; 16:13. The within scripture and chapter CONTEXT must always be considered. This has been done with this OP. All the scrtiptures listed are what is called a topical scripture analysis or topical bible study that takes in within scripture and chapter context. *1 CORINTHIANS 2:13; ISAIAH 28:9-10

    This being said where your posts lacks credibility is that it does not consider that spiritual things are spiritually discerned and revealed by God to those who prayerfully seek to know him through his Word.

    The NEW COVENANT promise is that God wants to be our teacher *HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 8:31-36. If God is not your teacher you can never know the Word of God because spiritual things are spiritually discerned *1 CORINTHIANS 2:14.

    ...............

    CAN WE KNOW GOD'S WORD THROUGH THE ACADEMIC WAYS OF THE WORLD?

    1 CORINTHIANS 2:13-14 [13], Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    [14], But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    JESUS speaking about the learned academics of the his day (Scribes, Pharisees and Saducees) who were suppose to be experts in God's WORD and rejected JESUS as the Messaiah says...

    MATTHEW 11:25-27
    [25], At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them to babes. [26], Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in your sight. [27], All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    MATTHEW 16:17 [17], And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven.

    LUKE 2:26 [26], And it was revealed to him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

    Point here is that unless God is your guide and teacher and your not viewing the bible as the Word of God, no wordly methods of studying historical books will help you to understand the meanings of God's WORD. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned...

    LUKE 10:21 [21], In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them to babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in your sight.

    1 CORINTHIANS 2:10 [10], But God has revealed them to us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

    1 CORINTHIANS 1:18-28
    [18], For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God.
    [19], For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    [20], Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    [21], For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    [22], For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    [23], But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness;
    [24], But to them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    [25], Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
    [26], For you see your calling, brothers, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    [27], But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    [28], And base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are

    1 CORINTHIANS 2:6-10
    [6], However, we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nothing:
    [7], But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world to our glory:
    [8], Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    [9], But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.
    [10], But God has revealed them to us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

    1 CORINTHIANS 3:19 [19], For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness.

    .............

    THE NEW COVENANT PROMISES THAT GOD WANTS TO BE OUR TEACHER

    HEBREWS 8:11 [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    JOHN 14:26 [26], But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

    JOHN 16:13 [13], However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

    These are promises are conditional on continuing in God's WORD prayerfully seeking JESUS to be our teacher according to the NEW COVENANT promise.

    JOHN 8:31-36
    [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed
    [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
    [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
    [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
    [36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

    .............

    IS ALL SCRIPTURE GOD'S WORD AND FOR US TODAY?

    1 CORINTHIANS 10:11 [11] Now ALL THESE THINGS happened to them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the world are come.

    2 TIMOTHY 3:16 [16] ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

    MATTHEW 4:4 [4], But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God

    .............

    If your resoning is correct brother then only the academic, the wise and the prudent could understand the scriptures yet it was these very ones that crucified JESUS called him of the Devil and called his followers a cult and God's WORD teaches the exact opposite of what your claiming, as shown in the scriptures provided above.

    I worry about you brother that your seeking worldly ways to try to understand the scriptures. This is posted only in all respect and love for you. Without JESUS and His Spirit we can do nothing, let alone know His Word.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother. You are free to believe as you wish. I do not feel the need to respond to your other posts above as you have only provided your own words to argue against the scriptures that have been provided in context as a topical scripture analysis on what it means to grieves God's Spirit.

    God bless
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    This is the problem as many do not know who God's ISRAEL are or who JEWS are in the NEW COVENANT and use this as a basis to argue away the scriptures. I havn't forgotten your other post brother I have been out most of the day today. I will try and share some thoughts a little latter though as it is getting late my time.

    God bless
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  13. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    No not at all. I have only made a prayerful study of the scriptures asking JESUS to be my guide and teacher *JOHN 14:26; HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 16:13 and used scriptures to interpret the scriptures in relation to a topical scripture analysis looking at context and key word study in relation to the topic being discussed in the OP and Greek word meanings. In response brother your only providing your own words and opinions. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brotherD, nice to see you. Yes I am good thanks brother :)
    My quote above brother is in reference to KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN. Everyone struggles with TEMPTATION to SIN. Keep in mind here that TEMPTATION is not sin until it is acted upon and JESUS promises when TEMPTATION to SIN comes...

    1 CORINTHIANS 10:13 [13], There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

    The scriptures teach many are called but few are chosen *MATTHEW 22:14. It is only those who ENDURE TEMPTATION to the END that receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12.

    The very fact that you feel remorse for SIN is God's Spirit working with you and calling you to him *JOHN 16:8.

    I actually went through a similar experience to you in that JESUS taught me through this experience that all I could do without him is sin because I am a sinner and cannot save myself *EPHESIANS 2:8; JOHN 15:1-5.

    It was not until I finally gave up all control and BELIEVED THE WORD OF GOD ONLY THAT God's WORD would so what it says it would do IN ME that I found JESUS and what he did for me on Calvery and that he died and took away my sins so I could walk with him in newness of life *JOHN 3:16; 1 JOHN 1:9; ROMANS 6:4; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31.

    We must all go through the ROMANS 7 experience before we get to ROMANS 8 and live in ROMANS 6 (have a read). The LAW is our school master that leads us to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN through Faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. ALL things are possible to those who BEIEVE. When you come to God's WORD tell JESUS to speak the Word only and it shall be done to you *MATTHEW 8:8.

    This is the Gospel God's WORD is the power of creation to save us from our sins *JOHN 8:31-36. The four gospel have some deeper meanings in that we are all sick with SIN and there is nothing that we can do in our own strength but to BELIEVE GOD'S WORD to save us from ourselves and to heal us from our sickness...

    MATTHEW 9:12-13 [12], But when Jesus heard that, he said to them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. [13], But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    It was not until the sick knew that they could not save themselves from their sickness and BELIEVED the WORD of GOD ONLY that JESUS healed them and made them whole.

    Now brother what is stopping you NOW this very second, today, to BELIEVE the WORD of GOD ONLY to do what it says it will do? ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE (Now present tense). The great physician is here today to all those who he has given ears to hear and eyes to see. Do you BELIEVE God's WORD NOW Brother D? God has given your your salvation NOW thank him and take it through FAITH! Arise take up your bed and walk and go sin not more...

    God bless will catch up more a little latter :wave:
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  15. BrotherD

    BrotherD Thus Saith The Lord

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    Hey my friend.

    I understand I need him and i prayerfully ask him to come into my life and deliver me from me. By his grace i understand everything you post because just like you God's Word is the only thing that matters. Not my opinion, nor the opinion of others, and i have seen a change once I started telling myself that it is nothing i can do to save me. I think of the scriptures:

    1 Samuel 15:29 KJV — And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

    Numbers 23:19 KJV — God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    So i lean on these verses to trust that he will do what his word will do. I think of Hebrews 11 from time to time and see those examples of people trusting God. Everything is a process and i am learning to be patient. I just have to do as the scriptures state:

    1 Thessalonians 4:11 KJV — And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

    And pray that the Lord will take care of the rest. Thank you for your encouragement and i look forward to more of God's Word from you. God bless you and chat with you later.
     
  16. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    God bless you BrotherD God is guiding you and leading you. Take hold of His promises. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; for he is faithful that promised *HEBREWS 10:23; 1 THESSALONIANS 5:24; ROMANS 1:16; 1 PETER 1:5; 2 TIMOTHY 1:7; 2 CORINTHIANS 4:7; 1 CORINTHIANS 1:24; 1 CORINTHIANS 1:18; PHILIPPIANS 2:13; 1 JOHN 1:9

    God bless
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Your response...
    We will have to agree to disagree brother :).

    Perhaps brother you did not read what you were quoting from? If you read what you were responding to you would see what was being shared was a complimentary interpretation of the scriptures relating to the 2nd coming but focusing on a Greek word study of the Spirit sealing us to the day of REDEMPTION used in EPHESIANS 4:30. This is not a contradictory interpretation but a complimentary interpretation. Stated in the same post you responded to it was already stated that the scripture is referring to the second coming.

    The focus in the posts was a another view of the same scripture linking BELIEVERS to the Cross and the price paid for our sins at Calvery through the gift of God's dear son. The Greek Word study on REDEMPTION used in EPHESIANS 4:30 which is what God's Spirit seals us to and that is the Cross and price paid at Calvery to BELIEVERS. This in turn defines BELIEVERS and what they are sealed to in order to be ready for the second coming.

    God's WORD is for everyday believers (Past, present and future). To say otherwise is to say God's WORD is not from God.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello BrotherD,

    I know this post was to another brother. Just wanting to share some interesting scriptures on this subject that may be helpful.

    Who is God's ISRAEL and JEWS in the NEW COVENANT linked

    Broken down...

    1. ORIGIN OF ISRAEL AND THE 12 TRIBES linked
    2. MEANING OF THE NAME OF GOD'S ISRAEL linked
    3. GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT IS GOD'S CHURCH linked
    4. GENTILES ARE NOW GRAFTED IN WITH GOD'S ISRAEL linked

    Why is this important? ISRAEL is only a name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW His WORD (the Church). If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part in the NEW COVENANT or the Word of God who is Given to God's ISRAEL (believers) *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

    God bless
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE OF THE BORN AGAIN BELIEVER WHO WALKS IN THE SPIRIT?

    The evidence of being BORN AGAIN through faith is to walk in newness of life through the SPIRIT (Word) by faith is the fruit of the life....

    GALATIANS 5:16 [16], This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

    ROMANS 8:1-4 [4], [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.[3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    ROMANS 8:13 [13], For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

    ROMANS 6:1-23
    [1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    [2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    [3], Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    [4], Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    [5], For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    [6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
    [7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.......

    1 JOHN 3:3-10
    [3], And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
    [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    [5], And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    [6], Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
    [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    [9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    [10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

    According to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT, Sin is KNOWINGLY breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 3:20.Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice sin (make it a habbit and stay in it without repentance). If any man sins however we have an advocate with the father *1 JOHN 2:1.

    God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word)
     
  20. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I don't have a problem with what you are saying about sin grieving the Holy Spirit, especially when a believer falls away from their faith in Christ. You are quite correct in what you are saying.

    But I felt that you were extracting Scriptures out of the natural contexts to support your view. So, I replied and presented a more accurate exegetical approach to those Scriptures. Because of space constraints, I have to leave them at the exegetical stage and not suggest how these Scriptures could be applied to the 21st Century mind-set and religious culture.

    So, the hermeneutical approach, which is to interpret the Scripture to how it relates to us right now, could be to think how those OT Scriptures about God being grieved over the unbelief of the Israelites in the wilderness, and those in Canaan who were departing from the Lord into idolatry. There are important lessons for us in these Scriptures, and there is no doubt about that, and so, to better use those Scriptures to illustrate your valid points, instead of just plucking the references out as they are and putting them on the page, is to:

    1. Who wrote the Scriptures and what was his intention, why did he write them, and what was it that he was wanting his readers to understand? Having an understanding of the religious environment and the mid-set of his readers, how did they understand what he was writing to them. And, in the context of the Hebrews Scriptures which the Apostle was referring to an earlier time, how did those First Century Jews reading his epistle understand what he was getting at? That is the exegesis of the Scripture.

    2. Then we come to hermeneutically interpreting the Scripture according to our religious environment, culture, and mind-set. Is this spoken direct to us or for us? If it is to us, what instructions are there that we need to follow? If the Scripture is for us, what lessons can we learn from the Scripture so that we can avoid the possible consequences that could happen to us if we went the same way into unbelief and idolatry?

    So, instead of filling up a whole page of Scripture references, all you need is around three relevant Scriptures, examine them exegetically as I advised in point 1, and then do something to apply them to your theme of God grieving over sin.

    I hope this is helpful, because I mean it that way. I desire that when people read your posts, they see the wood for the trees.
     
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