Born again (born from above)

mindlight

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The term born again by the holy spirit comes from the bible. The concept is superior to "getting saved" in that it speaks to the source of such a great salvation.

The language Jesus uses here in John 3 implies a washing as with water baptism. In context, that was a rebuke to religious leaders. Many of these had not accepted the Baptism of John. Baptism articulates this principle of being washed clean, of dying to the old, and being born again into a new life blessed from above. I wonder to what extent Jesus would have separated the receiving of the Spirit with the act of being baptized in defiance of the misguided religious leaders of his time and in repentance of one's sins. Indeed to a considerable extent, it was probably those who were baptized who would also then later receive the Spirit. There are of course baptized people who are not born again but the sacrament is important I think and articulates the real meaning of being born again.
 
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The religious leadership knew John’s baptism was Spiritual (from heaven), but said they “do not know” which is a lie.

Bottom line: Nicodemus would know he personally needed to accept John’s baptism, but at the time he came to Christ he would not have been water baptized with John’s baptism.

Jesus says “…born of water and the Spirit” because the water baptism itself does not “do” anything, but should acknowledge a commitment by the person being baptized. The Spirit that really changes the person’s heart. Nicodemus’ heart is not going to be transformed without demonstrating the commitment with baptism. For Nicodemus to be reborn he would need submit to both water baptism which includes a spiritual changing of his heart.

When Jesus does address our birth from our mother womb he does not say “born of water”, but says: “born of the flesh” which is contrasted with baptism from heaven birth.

Jesus does not call our fleshly birth: “water birth”.

I liked that thanks
 
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You don't think Jesus was being very clear when he said Matthew 15:24?

Did he meant what he said there?

First to the Jews then to the gentiles but whether a natural branch or one grafted in we are all rooted in the Vine. The good Samaritan, the Syrophoenician woman in Tyre, the gentile Centurion in Capernaum, and the experience of the Holy Spirit in billions of gentiles through history say you may have misunderstood what he was doing. He submitted to Johns's Baptism, unlike the religious leadership of his day, to fulfill righteousness not because he needed to repent of sins, he went first to the lost sheep of Israel because he had to fulfill the prophecies and the requirements of the law in order to bring people into a new covenant. It is a covenant of his blood and body for all mankind and not just for Jews. This is clear in the gospels and even clearer in the experience of the later church articulated by Paul.
 
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mindlight

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Being born again is an experience that virtually all people do not remember. I remember mine although when Christ came to me and changed my heart it was a long time ago so I don't remember the specific details.

But anyway, when a person is born again the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of that person forever. You can tell who is born again and who is not by their actions and by personally knowing that person before they claim to have been regenerated.

I personally was a thief, liar, and con artist who stole money from a lot of people, including my parents and family. I had no remorse and I generally hated people in general and people hated me. I was eventually caught plead guilty because I knew I would get a lesser sentence if I did and served my time in prison. However, that person is a thing of the past, my family and friends have noticed the changes in me and I generally get along with people a lot easier than I did before. I have love for people and my brothers and sisters that I will be spending eternity with one day. I still remember the horrible things I did to my family, friends, and strangers. But that person was crucified with Christ and I slowly learned to forgive myself and to be able to talk about it.

But anyway, you can tell if someone is regenerated or not by their words and actions. If they do not want to serve God, take God's salvation for granted, claim all of their sins are forgiven so they don't have to do anything but just sit on their behinds than odds are, their claims are not legit. But, if you see a major life change in the person, if they're kind people who are spreading the gospel to the whole world and not caring about whether they're going to live or die, If God is leading and guiding them than odds are, what they have to say is true.

Thanks for your testimony. By their fruit ye shall know them.
 
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The new birth consists of 2 elements; water and Spirit.
The role the Spirit plays in the new birth is the Spirit in His word instructs men on what man needs to do to be saved. Those then that follow those instuctions will have been born again, begotton by the word James 1:18; born again by the word of God 1 Peter 1:23; begotten thru the gospel 1 Corinthians 4:16. The role of water is water baptism. When one is water baptized God does the work in removing the body of sin (Colossians 2:11-13), the old man of sin dies, is buried in a watery grave then one is then raised up from that water grave a new creature to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:3-5).
Titus 3:5 Paul spoke of a 'washing of regeneration". Regeneration refers to the new birth and there is a washing that takes place in this new birth. The underlying Greek word for 'washing' is loutron and refers to a laver of water, a water baptistry. Loutron is also found in Epehsians 5:26 a "washing of water by the word", another reference to water baptism.

I liked that, why do you think that some who are baptized are not born again when the action of baptism so thoroughly articulates the meaning of being born again.
 
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Butterball1

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I liked that, why do you think that some who are baptized are not born again when the action of baptism so thoroughly articulates the meaning of being born again.
I think all who are scripturally water baptized are born again. For a person to be baptized he must be a believer and understand why, understand the purpose for which he is being baptized. One must have faith (understanding) in order to be baptized and for that baptism pleasing to God, (Hebrews 11:6). If one has not been properly taught and therefore does not understand then they are not being baptized but just getting wet.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The language Jesus uses here in John 3 implies a washing as with water baptism. In context, that was a rebuke to religious leaders. Many of these had not accepted the Baptism of John. Baptism articulates this principle of being washed clean, of dying to the old, and being born again into a new life blessed from above. I wonder to what extent Jesus would have separated the receiving of the Spirit with the act of being baptized in defiance of the misguided religious leaders of his time and in repentance of one's sins. Indeed to a considerable extent, it was probably those who were baptized who would also then later receive the Spirit. There are of course baptized people who are not born again but the sacrament is important I think and articulates the real meaning of being born again.
Being born again by the Holy Spirit versus Being born again via human sacrament, interesting topic for discussion.
 
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zoidar

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  1. What does it mean to be born again?
  2. Is there any difference from the normal experience of baptism?
  3. Are all Christians born again?
SCRIPTURES:
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:3-7

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”
1 Peter 1:22-25

Born again is when the Holy Spirit takes part in a believer and he/she becomes a child of God. Some seems to experience it as a gradual change, others like a change that happens at instant, from one second to another.

Not all baptized are born again.

Not all Christians are born again.
 
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chad kincham

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The OT plan was that gentiles were to be saved thru the rise of Israel (Isaiah 60:1-3)

But what happens when Israel refuse to believe in Jesus as their Messiah?

How will the gentiles then be saved?

The original plan was for the gospel to be given to the Jew first, then the gentile, Romans 1:16, and regardless of how many Jews accept Jesus as messiah today, we are grafted onto the new covenant Jesus brought to the House of Israel, by faith in Jesus. Romans 11:17.

Blessings.
 
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The complete phrase is "born again through water and the Spirit", an obvious reference to Baptism.

Not so obvious. Have you ever witnessed the birth process, particularly when a woman's "water is broken"? Jesus was describing two separate births: natural and spiritual.

John 3:3-6, "Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”

Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit."

There is no mention of baptism; it's not even implied.
 
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AbbaLove

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15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Christ. 16 John answered them all, 'I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
(Luke 3:15-16)​

The original meaning of "born again" has been so watered down that more than a few so-called Christians think the "born again" experience was more powerful with the Apostles than is today possible with truly "born again" Believers.

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:
for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”


Romans 10:12 (KJV)​
 
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ViaCrucis

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  1. What does it mean to be born again?
  2. Is there any difference from the normal experience of baptism?
  3. Are all Christians born again?
SCRIPTURES:
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:3-7

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”
1 Peter 1:22-25

New birth, or regeneration, is the work of God to make us new in Christ; to become the new creation in Jesus.

We are born again by the grace of God, by His own gracious work through Word and Sacrament, to give us faith.

And so the ordinary way in which God accomplishes this is through Holy Baptism, as Christ says, we must be born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5), and likewise the Apostle St. Paul says in Titus 3:5 that we were saved not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. And again, St. Paul says in Ephesians 5:26 that Christ has cleansed His Church by the washing of water with the word.

It is through Baptism that we are born again and made children of God, having received faith, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, united to Christ's death and resurrection. So that we have died to the world and made alive to God in Christ. The old man dying and drowning in the water of Baptism, and the new man--the new creation in Jesus Christ by the power of the Spirit--born and raised up.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Not so obvious. Have you ever witnessed the birth process, particularly when a woman's "water is broken"? Jesus was describing two separate births: natural and spiritual.

John 3:3-6, "Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”

Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit."

There is no mention of baptism; it's not even implied.

Really think about this for a moment.

Jesus said that in order to see God's kingdom we must be "born again", he clarifies this in verse 5, that to be born again, to see the kingdom, we must be what? We must be born (singular) of water and the Spirit.

"Water and the Spirit" is the new birth.

Jesus does not say we must be "born of water" and then "born of the Spirit", but that we must be "born of water and the Spirit".

Further, consider the absurdity of this idea: Why would Jesus have to explain to Nicodemus that a person has to first exist before being born again?

If you ask, "How can I enter a grocery store?" And I say, "Well first of all you have to have been born physically, and then you walk through the entrance of the store" Isn't that just a bit awkward? Who needs to be told they have to first be born physically?

The only people who are going to hear this, the only people who are going to read this, the only people who can be told this are people who have already exited the womb.

It is an absurd interpretation that simply does not work here. It arose as an ad hoc way to explain away the plain and simple meaning of what Jesus says.

Jesus inquires to how Nicodemus couldn't understand what He was talking about, in spite of being a learned rabbi. Why does Jesus say this? Because Nicodemus should have understood immediately what Jesus was saying, because Jesus was speaking from within a Jewish context.

In Judaism when a Gentile converts they have to go through a ritual washing of water called tevilah, which is done in a mikveh, a ritual bath. What is the meaning and significance of this? In Judaism through tevilah a non-Jew is born again as a Jew, as a member of God's covenant people. For males this also includes being circumcised, but circumcision applies to all Jewish males, not just converts; to convert one has to undergo ritual washing in the mikveh.

Nicodemus was not ignorant of this, he knew this--as a learned Jew and rabbi, he was fully aware that that a Gentile was made into a Jew, receives a kind of new birth as a Jew, through the ritual washing of tevilah.

It wasn't the only use of tevilah, but it was a very important use of tevilah in Judaism, and it still is.

From MyJewishLearning.com,

"Submerging in a pool of water for the purpose not of using the water’s physical cleansing properties but expressly to symbolize a change-of-soul is a statement at once deeply spiritual and immensely compelling. No other symbolic act can so totally embrace a person as being submerged in water, which must touch and cover every lesion, every strand of hair, every birthmark. No other religious act is so freighted with meaning as this one which touches every aspect of life and proclaims a total commitment to a new idea and a new way of life as it swallows up the old and gives birth to the new.

The water of the mikveh is designed to ritually cleanse a person from deeds of the past. The convert is considered by Jewish law to be like a newborn child. By spiritually cleansing the convert, the mikveh water prepares him or her to confront God, life, and people with a fresh spirit and new eyes–it washes away the past, leaving only the future. Of course, this does not deny that there were good and beautiful aspects of the past. But, in the strictest religious sense, that past was only prologue to a future life as a Jew.
" - The Mikveh's Significance in Traditional Conversion | My Jewish Learning

Jesus takes the old meaning, and like He does so often, reinvigorates it with new meaning; the old washing of water in the mikveh gives way to Christian Baptism. Which like the former way was still in water, but now "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19) and by the name and authority of Jesus Christ our Lord (Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Acts of the Apostles 19:5).

Biblically.
Historically.
Theologically.
Contextually.
Jesus is talking about Baptism.

Which, as it just so happens, is also what literally every Christian from the time of the Apostles until modern history believed.

So I would encourage you to investigate, to ask yourself--how come nobody ever came up with the whole amniotic fluid theory until very recently? Protestant commentators, even those that rejected the doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration, still understood the meaning here to be baptism, so for example John Wesley writes in his explanatory notes on John 3:5,

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit — Except he experience that great inward change by the Spirit, and be baptized (wherever baptism can be had) as the outward sign and means of it."
- John 3 Bible Commentary - Wesley’s Explanatory Notes

Matthew Henry in his commentary writes,
"The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is compared to water. It is also probable that Christ had reference to the ordinance of baptism. Not that all those, and those only, that are baptized, are saved; but without that new birth which is wrought by the Spirit, and signified by baptism, none shall be subjects of the kingdom of heaven." - John 3 Bible Commentary - Matthew Henry (concise)

B.W. Johnson's commentary,
"Jesus does not reply directly to the question of Nicodemus, but proceeds to give a more explicit statement concerning the new birth. One must be born of water and of the Spirit. Whatever this may mean, it will be admitted by all (1) that no one is a member of the kingdom of God until he is born again; (2) that the Savior declares the impossibility of one entering who is not born of water and of the Spirit. All agree that the birth of the Spirit refers to the inward, or spiritual change that takes place, and all candid authorities agree that born of water refers to baptism. So Alford, Wesley, Abbott, Whitby, Olshausen, Tholuck, Prof. Wm. Milligan, the Episcopal Prayer Book, the Westminister Confession, the M. E. Discipline, and M. E. Doctrinal Tracts, and also the writers of the early Church all declare. Alford says: "All attempts to get rid of this have sprung from doctrinal prejudices." Abbott says: "We are to understand Christ as he expected his auditor to understand him. John the Baptist baptized both Jew and Gentile as a sign of purification by repentance from past sins. Nicodemus would then have certainly understood by the expression, 'born of water,' a reference to this rite of baptism."" - John 3 Bible Commentary - B. W. Johnson

In fact, this is so utterly ubiquitous in historical commentary and exegesis, that I have become utterly curious about the origins of the amniotic fluid interpretation.

It absolutely requires asking ourselves when did this idea start showing up? And why? It is so outside, so apart from the historic belief of Christianity that it deserves to be analyzed further--especially seeing so many Christians today being hoodwinked and deceived by this falsehood.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Guojing

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The original plan was for the gospel to be given to the Jew first, then the gentile, Romans 1:16, and regardless of how many Jews accept Jesus as messiah today, we are grafted onto the new covenant Jesus brought to the House of Israel, by faith in Jesus. Romans 11:17.

Blessings.

Romans 1:16 cannot be the "original" OT prophetic plan.

The mystery that was revealed to Paul was kept secret since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

But I think what you are saying is that you believe in replacement/fulfilment theology, that we believing gentiles are now brought in the House of Israel since many Jews have rejected Christ.

Because of that, we are also grafted into the New covenant that will be made only with the House of Israel and Judah, as indicated in Hebrews 8:8.

That is a very popular doctrine held by many Christians so I can understand where you are coming from.
 
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Guojing

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First to the Jews then to the gentiles but whether a natural branch or one grafted in we are all rooted in the Vine. The good Samaritan, the Syrophoenician woman in Tyre, the gentile Centurion in Capernaum, and the experience of the Holy Spirit in billions of gentiles through history say you may have misunderstood what he was doing. He submitted to Johns's Baptism, unlike the religious leadership of his day, to fulfill righteousness not because he needed to repent of sins, he went first to the lost sheep of Israel because he had to fulfill the prophecies and the requirements of the law in order to bring people into a new covenant. It is a covenant of his blood and body for all mankind and not just for Jews. This is clear in the gospels and even clearer in the experience of the later church articulated by Paul.

So when Jesus said Matthew 15:24, what do you think he meant?

If he didn't really mean what he said there, why didn't he said like you did "First to the Jews then to the gentiles"?
 
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chad kincham

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Romans 1:16 cannot be the "original" OT prophetic plan.

The mystery that was revealed to Paul was kept secret since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

But I think what you are saying is that you believe in replacement/fulfilment theology, that we believing gentiles are now brought in the House of Israel since many Jews have rejected Christ.

Because of that, we are also grafted into the New covenant that will be made only with the House of Israel and Judah, as indicated in Hebrews 8:8.

That is a very popular doctrine held by many Christians so I can understand where you are coming from.

The opposite is true.

Replacement theology is bogus.

To see how ridiculous it is, merely read Romans chapter 11, and substitute the word church whenever it says Israel, and it is obvious that replacement theology doesn’t work.

There’s no such thing as a church covenant- the new covenant is with the HOUSE of Israel, meaning national/genetic Israel, and not spiritual Israel, and gentiles are grafted into their covenant by faith in the Jewish messiah, Jesus.

Blessings.
 
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Guojing

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The opposite is true.

Replacement theology is bogus.

To see how ridiculous it is, merely read Romans chapter 11, and substitute the word church whenever it says Israel, and it is obvious that replacement theology doesn’t work.

There’s no such thing as a church covenant- the new covenant is with the HOUSE of Israel, meaning national/genetic Israel, and not spiritual Israel, and gentiles are grafted into their covenant by faith in the Jewish messiah, Jesus.

Blessings.

So are you saying that the Body of Christ, which we gentiles are saved by, also includes the New Covenant?

Do you think it is possible for us to be saved by being part of Christ's Body (Ephesians 1:3), which is by pure grace from God, instead of thru any covenants?

Ever noticed that Paul never written to us that we are under the same New Covenant that Jeremiah 31:31 mentioned?

He mentioned the Covenant once in Romans 11:26-27, and the context made it clear that he is referring to the nation Israel.
 
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HatGuy

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The opposite is true.

Replacement theology is bogus.

To see how ridiculous it is, merely read Romans chapter 11, and substitute the word church whenever it says Israel, and it is obvious that replacement theology doesn’t work.

There’s no such thing as a church covenant- the new covenant is with the HOUSE of Israel, meaning national/genetic Israel, and not spiritual Israel, and gentiles are grafted into their covenant by faith in the Jewish messiah, Jesus.

Blessings.
"For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." - Rom 9:6
 
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If the new birth is some supernatural, monergistic movement of the Holy Spirit upon the individual where the individual has no role at all, then if one is not born again, whose fault would that be? It cannot be the indiiduals fault. Could Christ rightly, justly condemn one (as Nicodemus) who has not been born again, condemn one for something that was impossible, outside the control of the individual? How does the Holy Spirit determine which individuals to act upon? Is the Holy Spirit being a respecter of pesons by acting upon one person and not another? God desires all men be saved, then why dosen't the Holy Spirit act upon all men...Jesus 'would' those Jews be under His wing (Matthew 23:37) whose fault was it they were not if man has no role, no say so in who is saved/born again or not born again?
 
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