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Featured Born again (born from above)

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by mindlight, Apr 1, 2021.

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  1. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    1. What does it mean to be born again?
    2. Is there any difference from the normal experience of baptism?
    3. Are all Christians born again?

    SCRIPTURES:
    Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

    5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
    John 3:3-7

    Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

    “All flesh is as grass,
    And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
    The grass withers,
    And its flower falls away,
    25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”
    1 Peter 1:22-25

     
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  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Born again is a concept that was directed, like all of what Jesus said in the 4 gospels, to the nation Israel (Matthew 15:24).

    One clue is this, when do you think Israel the nation was first born in the Old Testament?
     
  3. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Being born again means you have been born again by the Holy Spirit and your inner person has been created again, you are a new creation. The body on the outside looks the same, but the inside is completely new.

    The memories of being the old person persist since you remain in the same body, but that's not you.

    People tend to get born again before baptism, (in my experience) but sometimes during baptism since a testimony is involved.

    Not all church members are born again, not all people self identifying as Christians are born again by the Holy Spirit. The ratios provided in the bible indicate it is always a small number every generation, and it's not who you would expect.
     
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  4. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    You are not a Jew and the gospels speak to you also. The church is a holy nation made up of living stones. Israel became a nation when it passed through the waters of the dead sea and then through the desert to enter the promised land. There was a dying to Egypt that preceded being born again to the promised land. This was a change that came from above with Divinely appointed Moses leading them out and receiving the law from on high. Today we also pass through the waters of baptism to receive the promises of salvation. We receive the Spirit as a gift from on high that we have not earned and we are born again into a new life led by the Spirit and in obedience to God. But unlike the Gnostics believe we are not just spirit beings trapped inside corrupted flesh. We have the expectation of total transformation and the resurrection of glorified bodies also. We are spirit and we are physical, made in God's image, and now restored in the hope we have in Christ.
     
  5. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Twenty years ago there was some credibility to the idea that Born Again Christians were a holy remnant in a corrupted church. They populated every denomination and were characterized by a more personal relationship with Christ who literally inhabited them by the Holy Spirit. Today the phrase seems to have been cheapened and even degenerate people call themselves Christians and hold up bibles in front of churches to demonstrate their credentials. So what does it really mean to be born from above to live in the Light of having been forgiven of all, washed clean, and even inhabited by the Spirit of God, who prays from within our very souls for our ongoing transformation into the likeness of Christ?
     
  6. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    The term born again by the holy spirit comes from the bible. The concept is superior to "getting saved" in that it speaks to the source of such a great salvation.
     
  7. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Christ's own words to Nicodemus make it clear that he is distinguishing between different kinds of birth: physical and spiritual. He had just told Nicodemus of the necessity of a second birth and in reply to Nicodemus's natural confusion (vs. 4), he gives a brief explanation of what distinguishes the two births from each other. Verses 5 and 6, then, constitute this explanation, as is very evident in what Jesus says:


    John 3:5-6

    5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    There was, then, a very good reason for Jesus to go into the matter of physical birth. In doing so, he was directly responding to Nicodemus's confusion about what Jesus meant about being born a second time.


    Have I not found an instance of physical birth being described as "born of water"?

    Again, Jesus addresses the individual or small group with what they need to hear at the moment and we need to know what they need to be hearing at the moment to best understand what Jesus is saying.

    Mark 4: 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables. This is definitely about the “Kingdom” and Nicodemus is definitely an outsider. So, Jesus is talking in parables to Nicodemus. (A parable does not have to be just a story with a Spiritual meaning, but something said with a parallel deeper Spiritual meaning, so the we need to not just look at the surface conversation).

    Nicodemus has already acknowledged what the first birth was, so he is only asking about the born again (not what is meant by two births).

    Jesus response “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit….” Is addressing the born-again question.

    Nicodemus as part of the Sanhedrin would not have been baptized by John’s baptism from the conversation Jesus later had with Matt. 21: 23 …the chief priests and the elders… 24 Jesus replied, …25 John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?” …They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ Jesus said: ““Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

    The religious leadership knew John’s baptism was Spiritual (from heaven), but said they “do not know” which is a lie.

    Bottom line: Nicodemus would know he personally needed to accept John’s baptism, but at the time he came to Christ he would not have been water baptized with John’s baptism.

    Jesus says “…born of water and the Spirit” because the water baptism itself does not “do” anything, but should acknowledge a commitment by the person being baptized. The Spirit that really changes the person’s heart. Nicodemus’ heart is not going to be transformed without demonstrating the commitment with baptism. For Nicodemus to be reborn he would need submit to both water baptism which includes a spiritual changing of his heart.

    When Jesus does address our birth from our mother womb he does not say “born of water”, but says: “born of the flesh” which is contrasted with baptism from heaven birth.

    Jesus does not call our fleshly birth: “water birth”.
     
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  8. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You don't think Jesus was being very clear when he said Matthew 15:24?

    Did he meant what he said there?
     
  9. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Formerly FireInFolding

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    I agree with Bling, I was getting ready to post myself and he is saying the same sort of thing I was ready to post, but I will leave some more references to some of the things he has touched on in part in some places

    John 3:3 Jesus says except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God (Read John 3:1-11)

    Then when we look who had come to Jesus who responded to him before he even asked a question, its

    John 3:1 Nicodemus

    Nicodemus came to Christ at what time?

    John 3:2 by the cover of night

    Who was Nicodemus of?

    John 3:1 Nicodemus was a man of the Pharisees.

    Nicodemus (a Pharisee) never asked Jesus the question concerning the baptism of water when Jesus answered him, because


    Luke 7:30...the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

    In contrast, it was these people who justified God by being baptized with the baptism by John

    John 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

    Who said,

    Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

    Water and Spirit (See also Mat 3:13-16) Jesus said,

    Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not:
    but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him
    .

    So Nicodemus (a Pharisee)

    John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    Nicodemus asks no question yet but Jesus answers him

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Jesus isn't speaking of a man being reborn after the flesh

    John 3:3 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    But Jesus was speaking of "a man" being born again "of water and of the Spirit" as John came unto you in the way of righteousness, saying the same thing

    Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

    Again, Nicodemus were of the same who rejected this

    Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

    So it is not about being born of the flesh or having children born after the flesh

    John 3:3 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    See also 1 John 1:11-12, Gal 4:3, See Romans 8:9

    John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    Now John was one born of woman (who was himself was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb)
    See Luke 1:15 and when Jesus come to him John still said,

    John 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

    Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

    Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

    Stopping right here, because again Nicodemus was of the Pharisees and in respects to John who come in the way of righteousness (as Jesus tells us) and baptizing with water shows
    the same rejecting the counsel of God in John (and did so against themselves) as the Pharisees rejected his water baptism.

    Whereas even Jesus, the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world (John who was sent before him) who is "the way, the truth and the life" submitted to the same (although he himself knew no sin) and he too was baptized with water that they (two) would fulfill all righteousness.

    John 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

    Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him,and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    And even as Jesus was baptized by John, Jesus contnues to say to them here

    Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

    But just before this they would not answer if Johns baptism of men or of God, but it was of God because it says specifically that the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God against themselves not being baptized by John. Wheres the people justified (not themselves) but God being baptized by John. Not to mention he is God's messenger sent before Christ to prepare his way before him.

    Mat 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

    Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    That generation set them (both John and Jesus) at nought

    Elesewhere Jesus speaks of that generation setting John and Jesus at nought though they came in differently.

    Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

    Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

    Peter says

    1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

    1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    And not of corruptible seed because we know

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Gal 4:3, See Romans 8:9)

    Even as Peter continues (quoting from the latter part of Isaiah 40:3-8) saying

    1 Peter 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

    1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    The first part of Isaiah 40:3 speaks of John (Mat 3:3) follows the same "born of flesh (or corruptible) verses born of Spirit (incorruptible)

    There are other verses ofcourse
     
  10. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You can understand John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

    Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

    God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Issac.

    Thru Issac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

    Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

    And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

    This was reinforced in Jeremiah 31:9

    9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

    God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

    But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

    Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-45; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

    When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

    God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets (e.g. 2 Chronicles 24:20-22; Jeremiah 26:20-24; cf. Luke 13:34; Acts 7:52)., and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.

    If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.
     
  11. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Formerly FireInFolding

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    Hey Goujing, you had written,

    Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

    And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

    This was reinforced in Jeremiah 31:9

    9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

    This might not be which verse you meant, says Ephraim is my firstborn there.
     
  12. sunlover1

    sunlover1 Beloved, Let us love one another

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    While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the interior and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” “No,” they answered, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3“Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked. “The baptism of John,” they replied.…

    I think this might answer most of the questions above.
     
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  13. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Formerly FireInFolding

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    Goujing, Jesus is called Israel too isnt He?

    For example,

    Mat 2:14 When he (Joseph) arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

    So he took them into Egypt, whereas it says in Hosea

    Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    After Herod was dead (Mat 2:15)

    Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

    Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel:

    for they are dead which sought the young child's life.


    Then here it says,

    Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

    Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

    Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

    This same was determined before

    Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    Where this same child (even in Egypt) gets called out of Egypt into the land of Israel (Mat 2:19)

    My son Israel is also shown in the land of Israel (and called out of Egypt)

    Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.

    For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:

    but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


    Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

    but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


    Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you

    Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.

    He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
     
  14. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Formerly FireInFolding

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    It does say he shall save his people from their sins (being a minister of the circumcision)

    Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    He did say he had other sheep not of that fold

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    But he was sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Isreal

    Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    "not our sins only" but the sins of whole world

    1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    To the Gentiles who were far off

    Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    Both have access by one Spirit

    Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    Even us, not of Jews only but also of the Gentiles

    Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    Gentiles are to rejoice with his people, the remnant of those who beleived in Christ

    Romans 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

    1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision,
    Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
     
  15. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Paul was only saved after the nation Israel has fallen at Acts 7, they stoned Stephen remember?

    Because of the fall of the nation Israel, salvation has now come to the gentiles (Romans 11:11)

    So you cannot use his revelations to understand Christ's ministry during the 4 gospels. Don't anticipate revelation
     
  16. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Yes, so the point is that, Israel was the focus on what Born again was directed to
     
  17. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Formerly FireInFolding

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    What? ^_^
     
  18. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Not straightforward enough?

    1. Jesus came as a minister of the circumcision (Romans 15:8)
    2. The circumcised rejected Christ when they put him on the cross (Acts 2:36)
    3. The circumcised rejected the Holy Spirit when they stoned Stephen (Acts 7:55)
    4. Israel the nation fell after that (Mark 3:29)
    5. Because of that fall, salvation has now come to the gentiles (Romans 11:11)
    6. Paul was saved by Christ himself to reach all of us gentiles (Acts 22:21, Romans 11:13)
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  19. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Formerly FireInFolding

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    It was this,

    "So you cannot use his revelations to understand Christ's ministry during the 4 gospels. Don't anticipate revelation"

    I was laughing at not the scriptures
     
  20. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Formerly FireInFolding

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    I missed this one too, one says Isreal is my firstborn and the other said Ephraim (but you said the last reinforced the first one). So I tossed Jesus in as Isreal to see what might come of that.
     
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