Books left out of the Bible

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Could some books have been left out because they did not fit in with what the 'church' wanted? Did they take people away from the church and were thus not included?

I suspect that the books chosen for canonization were not chosen because of their intrinsic value but because they fit the belief system of those doing the choosing.
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
I suspect that the books chosen for canonization were not chosen because of their intrinsic value but because they fit the belief system of those doing the choosing.

I have thought of that. If some writings told of Salvation outside of church I would think that would not be included?
 
Upvote 0

Phantasman

Newbie
May 12, 2012
4,953
226
Tennessee
✟34,626.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I have thought of that. If some writings told of Salvation outside of church I would think that would not be included?

Interesting comment. The church is where one receives salvation?

John:
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Salvation: deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.

So where is this spirit and what is it's truth? You say church?

Luke:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Gospel of Thomas:
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Same message, though I get more out of the latter, even if it's "outside of the church".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Goatee
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,918
Vancouver
✟147,506.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
The books of the Bible included were fairly inclusive and represented a wide consensus of what books were deemed authoritative(apostolic) and universally accepted by the whole of the Christian world.

The bigger controversy at the time was not centred on including more. Heterodox churches of the day wanted to include less. Much like many of the CF Christians posting here today, some heterodox Christians considered all of the OT as the depictions of an evil substandard God and believed it all should be excluded. Others such as the Gnostics wanted a very reduced NT, and the Protoevengalium of James. This is not to say that the PoJ is a gnostic book- it is not and is accepted as good reading by most of the Eastern Orthodoxy. But to exclude other writings already included would make a gnostic reading of Christianity more difficult. The bottom line is that PoJ was deemed not to be the work of the Apostle James (which it isn't) and was therefore not included. Some books were (incorrectly) deemed to be apostolic, like Hebrews and the Revelation of John and were therefore included. Others like the Gospel of Thomas, which moderns like to think is gnostic and more pro-feminist, were not deemed to be gnostic back then, but focused on the sayings of Jesus rather than the narrative style of other Gospels which thereby gave a more systematic approach to demonstrated Jesus as the Son of God.
There were other books that would fall more into the classification of Christian fiction or fantasy. While many moderns who have trouble with miracles might include most of the Bible here, books that focused on gratuitous miracle, such as the child Jesus turning clay into birds were not taken seriously in early days, were not credibly apostolic, and were correctly recognized as the works of fictions that they were, fulfilling the hunger that people have to fill in the gaps of the biography of Jesus.
"No salvation outside of the Church" was not even a concept back then. It was a thought that nobody had even imagined. Such a concept would require the advent of a powerful medieval church as a secular force in society, and a Protestant reaction against such an institution.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Goatee
Upvote 0

Phantasman

Newbie
May 12, 2012
4,953
226
Tennessee
✟34,626.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
The books of the Bible included were fairly inclusive and represented a wide consensus of what books were deemed authoritative(apostolic) and universally accepted by the whole of the Christian world.

I guess we'll never know since the Roman Church destroyed anything not agreeable by them.


I'm sure the 70 wrote many books as well as others who understood Christs teachings.

The 12 were instructed to teach the Jews (by James), which is why Matthew and Mark are directed towards the Jews. The apostles took the Gospels to the Gentiles, Pagans and others who did not follow or know of the Hebrew Scriptures, nor needed to. The Gospel was taught to all, not the Bible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jaybird88
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,342
26,787
Pacific Northwest
✟728,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The books of the Bible included were fairly inclusive and represented a wide consensus of what books were deemed authoritative(apostolic) and universally accepted by the whole of the Christian world.

I guess we'll never know since the Roman Church destroyed anything not agreeable by them.

So when did they do this?

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
So when did they do this?

-CryptoLutheran

Following Constantine was a several centuries long persecution of paganism. Anything tainted with paganism was destroyed --- temples, academies, libraries. Not just the structures but the priests, professors and librarians as well.
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,381
5,253
✟817,053.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
The books of the Bible included were fairly inclusive and represented a wide consensus of what books were deemed authoritative(apostolic) and universally accepted by the whole of the Christian world.

I guess we'll never know since the Roman Church destroyed anything not agreeable by them.


I'm sure the 70 wrote many books as well as others who understood Christs teachings.

The 12 were instructed to teach the Jews (by James), which is why Matthew and Mark are directed towards the Jews. The apostles took the Gospels to the Gentiles, Pagans and others who did not follow or know of the Hebrew Scriptures, nor needed to. The Gospel was taught to all, not the Bible.
A bit paranoid??? The Church at that time, and in centuries to come became the repository of a great wealth of knowledge; not just the canon of Scripture, but everything, science, the arts, paganism, history, heretical works... the list goes on.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
are you saying Greek politics kept out Enoch? if that was true then wouldnt they have pushed them to lose Maccabees being as it wasnt so favorable to the Greeks.
The people pushing for the ousting of Enoch would've been the elders themselves. At first I did not consider this but, what better story to create about what books are "inspired by God" than one involving seventy "pious scribes" who wrote "the entire old testament"? Of course this is speculation. There is the possibility that these men did possess the seventy books mentioned by God to Ezra which were to be kept for the wise to read and keep twenty four for public reading. Now if this were true then it follows that lying scribes during the time of the LXX and now, are purposely keeping the list of ninety four books hidden.
I believe in the latter aforementioned. After reading all of the old and new testament apocryphal, pseudopegraphical, deuterocanonical writings I could find and weighing them against or current canon: I've concluded that I & II Adam and Eve, Life off Adam and Eve, 1 Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees, Testament of the 12 Patriarchs, and the Assumption of Moses help answer difficult questions of the Bible:

Why did God wait so long to save man from sin?
What happened to Adam and Eve post Eden?
Where did Enoch go and what did he do in heaven?
Why are there so many gaps in Genesis?
How many years passed from Adam to the death of Moses?
How long was Israel really in Egpyt?
Did the twelve sons of Israel leaving any wisdom for their tribes to follow before breathing their last breaths? How did they feel about each other and God?

While the other books are great to read the above fill in the important pieces.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Goatee
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
Like I said before, the church could have deliberately left out certain books etc as it didn't fit in with how they wanted people to think or believe.

Has Christianity gone the way the God has wanted?
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,342
26,787
Pacific Northwest
✟728,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Following Constantine was a several centuries long persecution of paganism. Anything tainted with paganism was destroyed --- temples, academies, libraries. Not just the structures but the priests, professors and librarians as well.

I was specifically asking when "the Roman Church" destroyed all these heretical books. But since we're on the subject, if the Church was out and about destroying every bit of knowledge from the classical era then why were scholars in the middle ages still able to read these works of antiquity? Latin and Greek works were copied and preserved not in spite of the Church, but by the Church. The fall of the Roman Empire in the West was the leading cause for a loss of works in the West (which wasn't a problem in the East); and it was because of the Islamic conquests into Christian territories that put them into contact with the great works of the classical age and which ultimately gave rise to the Islamic Golden Age--Aristotle was preserved among the Arabs and the Persians largely because of the conquest Egypt and the Levant; with Alexandria in Islamic hands its great libraries became a boon to the Umayyads and subsequent Islamic empires. That learning would, again, feed itself back into Western Europe via Muslim Iberia; but not all was lost in Western Europe either.

The myth of the "big bad Catholic Church" is just that, a myth. The Church wasn't stamping out classical learning, but preserving it. The Church wasn't destroying the works of classical paganism, but again, preserving them. In most cases Christian violence in late antiquity against pagans and pagan temples involved zealous mobs, and such violence was sanctioned neither by the civil or ecclesiastical powers.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
I was specifically asking when "the Roman Church" destroyed all these heretical books. But since we're on the subject, if the Church was out and about destroying every bit of knowledge from the classical era then why were scholars in the middle ages still able to read these works of antiquity? Latin and Greek works were copied and preserved not in spite of the Church, but by the Church. The fall of the Roman Empire in the West was the leading cause for a loss of works in the West (which wasn't a problem in the East); and it was because of the Islamic conquests into Christian territories that put them into contact with the great works of the classical age and which ultimately gave rise to the Islamic Golden Age--Aristotle was preserved among the Arabs and the Persians largely because of the conquest Egypt and the Levant; with Alexandria in Islamic hands its great libraries became a boon to the Umayyads and subsequent Islamic empires. That learning would, again, feed itself back into Western Europe via Muslim Iberia; but not all was lost in Western Europe either.

The myth of the "big bad Catholic Church" is just that, a myth. The Church wasn't stamping out classical learning, but preserving it. The Church wasn't destroying the works of classical paganism, but again, preserving them. In most cases Christian violence in late antiquity against pagans and pagan temples involved zealous mobs, and such violence was sanctioned neither by the civil or ecclesiastical powers.

-CryptoLutheran

The destruction was quite a bit worse in the west than in the east. The Orthodox and later the Muslims did much to preserve the ancient writings. Zealous mobs were certainly involved but in a great many cases either civil or church authorities incited the destruction.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,381
5,253
✟817,053.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
The destruction was quite a bit worse in the west than in the east. The Orthodox and later the Muslims did much to preserve the ancient writings. Zealous mobs were certainly involved but in a great many cases either civil or church authorities incited the destruction.

You can believe what you want, but like I said above, and my friend, Crypto, posted copied below; of all the things that some Popes and the Catholic Church did to cause schisms; destroying books was not one of them.

The books that were rejected by the ecumenical council are all still in existence; and a number of others from other Christian traditions (Eastern and Oriental Orthodox) are too.

As a "traditional" Christian, I find it troubling that many protestants find it so convenient to meet out blame to "Catholics" and "Romans", even when there is nothing to blame them, or anyone else, for. It is not too big a stretch to accept the outcome of those early ecumenical counsels as being directed and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I was specifically asking when "the Roman Church" destroyed all these heretical books. But since we're on the subject, if the Church was out and about destroying every bit of knowledge from the classical era then why were scholars in the middle ages still able to read these works of antiquity? Latin and Greek works were copied and preserved not in spite of the Church, but by the Church. The fall of the Roman Empire in the West was the leading cause for a loss of works in the West (which wasn't a problem in the East); and it was because of the Islamic conquests into Christian territories that put them into contact with the great works of the classical age and which ultimately gave rise to the Islamic Golden Age--Aristotle was preserved among the Arabs and the Persians largely because of the conquest Egypt and the Levant; with Alexandria in Islamic hands its great libraries became a boon to the Umayyads and subsequent Islamic empires. That learning would, again, feed itself back into Western Europe via Muslim Iberia; but not all was lost in Western Europe either.

The myth of the "big bad Catholic Church" is just that, a myth. The Church wasn't stamping out classical learning, but preserving it. The Church wasn't destroying the works of classical paganism, but again, preserving them. In most cases Christian violence in late antiquity against pagans and pagan temples involved zealous mobs, and such violence was sanctioned neither by the civil or ecclesiastical powers.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tutorman
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
If you truly want to know, you'll seek as I did.

It was done during Constantine's reign and after the Council of Nicaea.

A small sample follows:

324 ---At Dydima, Asia Minor, Constantine sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

326 ---Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc..

330 ---Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

335 ---Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

341 ---Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346 ---New large-scale persecutions of the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius, who is accused of being a "magician".

353 ---An edict of Constantius decrees the death penalty for all forms of worship involving sacrifice and "idols".

354 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. The first burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,342
26,787
Pacific Northwest
✟728,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
If you truly want to know, you'll seek as I did.

It was done during Constantine's reign and after the Council of Nicaea.

I'm sure you are able to back your claims with sources, perhaps you could do that instead of simply telling me to go search vaguely.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Phantasman

Newbie
May 12, 2012
4,953
226
Tennessee
✟34,626.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I was specifically asking when "the Roman Church" destroyed all these heretical books. But since we're on the subject, if the Church was out and about destroying every bit of knowledge from the classical era then why were scholars in the middle ages still able to read these works of antiquity? Latin and Greek works were copied and preserved not in spite of the Church, but by the Church. The fall of the Roman Empire in the West was the leading cause for a loss of works in the West (which wasn't a problem in the East); and it was because of the Islamic conquests into Christian territories that put them into contact with the great works of the classical age and which ultimately gave rise to the Islamic Golden Age--Aristotle was preserved among the Arabs and the Persians largely because of the conquest Egypt and the Levant; with Alexandria in Islamic hands its great libraries became a boon to the Umayyads and subsequent Islamic empires. That learning would, again, feed itself back into Western Europe via Muslim Iberia; but not all was lost in Western Europe either.

The myth of the "big bad Catholic Church" is just that, a myth. The Church wasn't stamping out classical learning, but preserving it. The Church wasn't destroying the works of classical paganism, but again, preserving them. In most cases Christian violence in late antiquity against pagans and pagan temples involved zealous mobs, and such violence was sanctioned neither by the civil or ecclesiastical powers.

-CryptoLutheran

Wiki may not be an authority, but it does consolidate from many sources that can be verified by the reader.

Constantine the Great, who along with Licinius had decreed toleration of Christianity in the Roman Empire by what is commonly called the "Edict of Milan",[12] and was the first Roman Emperor baptized, set precedents for later policy. By Roman law the Emperor was Pontifex Maximus, the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) of all recognized religions in ancient Rome. To put an end to the doctrinal debate initiated by Arius, Constantine called the first of what would afterwards be called the ecumenical councils[13] and then enforced orthodoxy by Imperial authority.[14]

The first known usage of the term in a legal context was in AD 380 by the Edict of Thessalonica of Theodosius I,[15] which made Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire. Prior to the issuance of this edict, the Church had no state-sponsored support for any particular legal mechanism to counter what it perceived as "heresy". By this edict the state's authority and that of the Church became somewhat overlapping. One of the outcomes of this blurring of Church and state was the sharing of state powers of legal enforcement with church authorities. This reinforcement of the Church's authority gave church leaders the power to, in effect, pronounce the death sentence upon those whom the church considered heretical.- From Wiki on "heresy".

Apocalypse of Peter:
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."

I see the scripture as truth.
 
Upvote 0