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Featured LDS Book of Mormon, PoGP, D&C

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    • devil is founder of great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:6 (14:3, 9, 17).

    • only two churches, Church of the Lamb and church of devil, 1 Ne. 14:10.

    • if ye are not sheep of the Good Shepherd, devil is your shepherd, Alma 5:39.
    Do non-Mormons belong to the Church of the Lamb?

    1 Nephi 14
    10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

    How did we get our Bible?

    1 Nephi 13
    28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

    Two churches only?

    Doctrine and Covenants 1
    Doctrine and Covenants 1
    29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.

    30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—


    Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act.
    But the moment that God sent angels from heaven to earth [to Joseph Smith], and raised up inspired men, and once more restored the true Christian Church to the earth, the devil, with all his combined armies of Catholics and Protestants, was enraged . . . The devil soon found that there was not the least shadow of evidence to sustain the Catholic and Protestant imposition against the doctrine of continued revelation.
    LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, vol. 2, no. 5
    LDS Church Leaders Declare Christianity to be in a State of Total Apostasy
     
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  2. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

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    What do Mormons believe about salvation? And are they polytheistic?
     
  3. Ripheus27

    Ripheus27 Holeless fox

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    That being said, Mormons don't think we're going to be tortured in hellfire forever, even if we're Catholics or Protestants or what. Most of us, according to them, will probably end up spending eternity in a realm where we will be visited by Jesus Christ, so I wouldn't worry too much about their otherwise hostile-sounding remarks. (Even if we're really bad people to be Catholics or Protestants, even so the worst that's likely to happen is we'll end up in the Telestial Kingdom, where the Spirit will visit us and which is supposedly so beautiful that we'd probably kill ourselves to get there.)
     
  4. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Joseph Smith—History 1

    18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

    19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
     
  5. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Some people define them as henotheistic. They teach that men can become gods with the same power as the "Heavenly Father."
     
  6. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Christians have been saved by the blood of Christ. They won't become LDS/Mormon. If you are a Christian, you would never kill anyone except in self-defense or defense of others. If you are a Christian those fictitious kingdoms of glory would be hell visited by a false christ or a false spirit.
     
  7. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

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    I'd be out of there in a heartbeat if my Church taught that.
     
  8. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I should add:

    There are several very strict requirements for eternal life.

    Also:
    Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21
    20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
    21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
     
  9. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Hallelujah!
     
  10. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Boy. I'm glad I'm Orthodox. Apparently all those angels of Mormonism never heard of us.
     
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  11. Ripheus27

    Ripheus27 Holeless fox

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    All I'm saying is that even if Mormonism were true, we Christians wouldn't have much to worry about.
     
  12. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Same...but somehow more so. :D

    It's very funny to me that for a religion (Mormonism) that tries to prove its antiquity by tying itself to a certain idea of Egypt, Joseph Smith and all the other Mormon hucksters never seemed to notice the existence of Christianity in Egypt since basically the beginning of Christianity itself (within 10-20 years of Pentecost, at most). According to our tradition, St. Mark came to Egypt and established the Church there c. 51 AD, which is certainly well before the hypothesized 'Great Apostasy' that supposedly made Mormonism necessary in the first place.

    I have never attempted to talk about Mormonism with anyone I know from church, but I have the sense that if I were to tell them about the basics of Joseph Smith's "Egyptian connections" (the mythical 'Reformed Egyptian' of the mythical plates, the 'translation' of the Egyptian papyri into the 'Book of Abraham', the attempted Egyptian grammar, etc.), they would find it quite funny and unbelievable.

    As the bishop of Asyut asked the Presbyterian missionaries who had come to Egypt in the 1860s to 'convert' the Copts to Christianity, "We have been living with Christ for almost 2,000 years; how long have your people been living with Him?"

    The Mormons would certainly have an answer for this, but we all know that the real answer is zero years, and will always be zero years until they leave their false religion. Lord have mercy.
     
  13. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Those are classics. :)

    Mormonism tends to become more unbelievable when it is taken out of its anti-catholic, protestant, America of the 19th century paradigm.
     
  14. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    What the OP ignores is the church's teaching that the "two churches" are:

    1. Those who follow God

    2. Those who follow Satan

    .

    This cuts across all other groups.

    In fact, one of the most famous pieces of LDS art is "The Last Judgement", a mural that was painted inside the Washington, DC temple -

    The Trumpet Stone: Latter-day Saint Temple Murals - Pt 5 - Miscellaneous Murals

    (yes, it's Blogspot. This is the only full-length image I could find online)

    Note that people of all walks are in the light, just as people of all walks are in the darkness.
     
  15. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    So which one am I, and people of my Church?

    We are Coptic Orthodox people. We follow the faith and traditions passed on from St. Mark the Apostle down through our holy fathers such as HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, the pillar of Orthodoxy who stood against the Arians, HH St. Cyril who stood against the Nestorians, and HH St. Timothy II who stood against the Eutychians both in Egypt and in Antioch (where they had different groups preaching the same wrong theology). We embrace the first three ecumenical councils as bulwarks against heresies (many of which have been reincarnated in Mormonism), and follow the canons of St. Basil, and the liturgies attributed to him, to our father HH St. Cyril (who made an 'Egyptian' recension of the Greek liturgy of St. Mark as celebrated at Alexandria), and to our father St. Gregory. We do not entertain even the idea of any 'temples' or any 'work' therein that is not found in our established churches and monasteries, in which the faith is preached and lived openly before all, and not reserved for the few deemed 'worthy' to see it and participate in it, and should they choose to become baptized members, to partake of the sacraments therein.

    We firmly reject Mormonism and all of its false teachings and false history. We believe it to be an anti-Christ cult that is dangerous to the souls of those who are trapped in it, and our holy bishops say exactly that in no uncertain words. To quote the Servants' Preparation Guide produced by the Southern United States Diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church (available here as a pdf):

    If it weren’t that people’s salvations were at stake, Mormonism would make for great science fiction. Mormons are so far from historic Christianity that it is a wonder how anyone could consider this theology as true. Real Truth is eternal, it does not change. The Bible also makes it explicitly clear that God does not change; that he is the same yesterday, today and forever. Therefore, it must be stated that the Mormon doctrine of continuous revelation, that God would actually change what He has previously revealed, is blatantly untrue by any standard, and therefore has no place in a true Christian church. The Mormon faith is polytheistic. Ask a Mormon to his/her face and they will probably tell you that they believe in "God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost." Sounds pretty orthodox, until you define those terms. In reality, Mormons believe that the three parts of the trinity are separate gods, and that there are in fact innumerable gods, and that any man can himself become one. God the Father is only the god of Earth, just as every other planet in the universe (and there ARE other inhabited planets out there) has their own god. It seems that Exodus 20:2 is a bad translation. In point of fact, Jesus is not the one Mormons are following. . .Joseph Smith Jr. is!
    This is the view of the Church, and it will not change unless Mormonism somehow changes its theology to conform to that of historical Christianity as affirmed by the fathers and at least the first three councils (other Christian groups like the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics would have you affirm more; I guess we're 'easy' like that...).

    Since that's not going to happen, and since our view is clear enough, I would like to know:

    Are we in the 'Church of Satan' according to Mormonism? Are we 'walking in light' despite rejecting all that Mormonism has brought and openly calling it a dangerous cult?

    I can probably guess the answer already, but I do not like these bland platitudes offered by our Mormon friends which avoid taking hard stances. If your scripture says something, you ought to openly stand by it or else abandon it and the religion that affirms it, as it is apparently not trustworthy.
     
  16. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Your information is inaccurate.

    There is no LDS scripture that says that the lower kingdoms are that wonderful. The Mormon Jesus Christ is a figment of Joseph Smith's overactive imagination. Their Holy Spirit isn't holy. Read D&C 76.

    The Terrestrial Kingdom:

    D&C 76
    79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

    The Telestial Kingdom:

    109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
    110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
    111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
    Doctrine and Covenants 76

    D&C 76:81–85. Those Who Inherit the Telestial Glory Will Pass through Hell

    Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained:

    “That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of their resurrection is called hell.Between their death and resurrection, these souls of the wicked are cast out into outer darkness, into the gloomy depression of sheol, into the hades of waiting wicked spirits, into hell. There they suffer the torments of the damned; there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire; there is found weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; there the fiery indignation of the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked. (Alma 40:11–14; D. & C. 76:103–106.)
    Section 76, The Vision of the Degrees of Glory


    SAINTS COMMANDED TO MARRY FOR ETERNITY.
    The Lord has commanded us, as it is recorded in the revelations, that marriage among members of the Church should be performed in his holy house, and not for time only, but for time and all eternity. Therefore, those who are satisfied to receive a ceremony for time only, uniting them for this life, and are content with that, are ignorant of this fundamental principle of the gospel and its consequences, or they are in rebellion against the commandments of the Lord.
    Now, what I want to say is intended very largely for the parents of the young people. I think the parents, perhaps, are more to be blamed, because, in many instances, very many instances, they have not taught their children the sacredness of the marriage covenant….
    It fills my heart with sadness when I see in the paper the name of a daughter or a son of members of this Church, and discover that she or he is going to have a ceremony and be married outside of the temple of the Lord, because I realize what it means, that they are cutting themselves off from exaltation in the kingdom of God.

    SORROW IN RESURRECTION IF NO ETERNAL MARRIAGE.
    These young people who seem to be so happy now, when they rise in the resurrection-and find themselves in the condition in which they will find themselves-
    then there will be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and bitterness of soul;
    and they have brought it upon themselves because of their lack of faith and understanding of the gospel, and from, I am sorry to say, the encouragement they have received many times from their own parents….
    10th LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:60

    UNWORTHY NOT TO GO TO TEMPLE.
    Of course there are people who are not worthy to go to the temple, and therefore should not go to the temple. No one should go to the temple except those who are worthy, as the Lord has said, "who [have] overcome by faith," and are cleansed and are just and true. Then they can go to the temple. If they are unclean, if they lack the faith, they had better stay out until they get the faith and are clean.
    10th LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:61
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  17. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Those who reject Joseph Smith are classified as those who reject Christ's servants (IOW reject Christ).
     
  18. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    It's God who makes that call, not any one human.

    That happens during the final judgement, and not a whit before.
     
  19. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    So it's just vague and general threats in pseudo-scripture, then. I see. That's not very convincing of Mormonism. I think I'll still pass on your so-called "restored gospel" that is apparently all hat and no cattle, since it's not even defended.

    The Servants' guide I quoted from is not scripture, and yet I would stand behind what it says about Mormonism because the entire point is that if you guys would change your theology and practices to conform to those of Christianity, you wouldn't be a cult anymore. We don't make statements that are condemnatory without offering an idea of what someone should be doing instead. You'd think if people around you were really in the "Church of Satan" you'd be doing something to pull them out, not soft-peddling it when confronted on its meaning with this "That's not for us to judge" business. Well your scripture is already doing the judging. It's right there. We can all read it. So why don't you stand behind it? Maybe it's not as 'inspired' as your religion claims it is.

    It's sad to see a cult try to act like a normal religion only in these surface-level sorts of ways, rather than digging in deep to change what is rotten at the roots (i.e., the theology and example of Joseph Smith, the elevation of a 19th century piece of fictional Biblical mimicry to the level of sacred scripture, the bizarre occultic practices of the temple that have nothing to do with Christianity in the slightest, etc). Everything we do should be for its own deep reasons, so I expect that being "the Church of Satan" is to mean something now if it is to mean anything ever, because now is presumably when I could do something about it. (Though I know that something in this case is "Join the Mormon religion", which, if not putting one in "the Church of Satan" certainly can't be said to be a good thing to do, from a Christian perspective, since it's leaving Christianity, so in this case the cure is worse than the disease).

    I wanted to see you or any Mormon stand up for this hateful stuff you call scripture.
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Church President Brigham Young, who said “that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”
     
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