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Featured LDS BOOK OF MORMON FALSE HISTORY 2

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Kiwi Christian, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    of the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Now---where does it say God the Father had a Father??
     
  2. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Oh. I forgot---
    Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  3. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    We have been trying to explain it to you. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one DIVINE substance, essence, or nature. We humans cannot grasp specifically what that means, only that I AM is what I AM.
     
  4. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Dismiss it as you may, but that has huge implications in your theology. It's not the "end of it". Where does it end (Jesus did what his father did, who did what his father did, who did what his father did, etc.)? Bible says "In the beginning, God.." The lds have no "beginning" with this line of theology. Which only means an endless line of gods, doing what their fathers did. God Himself says he knows no other. So who's right - God or the lds? (rhetorical question, btw)
     
  5. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    Of course there was beginning. In the beginning of this creation God created the heavens and the earth. You want to take it literal that before there was anything created there was nothing is fine with me. Your wrong but that is okay. You understand it the way that makes you feel okay. To me this is a false way to think of my Father in Heaven.
     
  6. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Which father's father's father and so on was there in the beginning? Lds theology makes it literal by saying Jesus did exactly what his father did, who presumably did what his father did, and so on. This was confirmed by an lds poster. Do you not believe this as well?

    You are correct in saying it is a false way of thinking of God the Father.
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    That merely means in the beginning of the creation of the earth---not at the beginning of all things for He had no beginning, which is hard to understand but true never the less. You understand things only in the light of JS---the light of God is different.
     
  8. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    John 17:11 & 22 links to this thread too. Jesus said twice in his prayer to God, asking God to bless all the believers: 'that they may be one, as WE are one.

    That was a key little phrase that helps us all know the nature of the Trinity.
    How do we reconcile John 17:11 & 22 with our different theologies??

    Here is how I would have to reconcile mainline Christian theology with John 17:11 & 22:
    'that the believers may be one DIVINE substance, essence, or nature, as WE are one DIVINE substance, essence, or nature.'

    Jesus says, how we are one, they can be one also.
    So how is the Tinity one? They are one DIVINE substance, essence, or nature. Therefore according to Jesus the believers are one in exactly the same way.

    Now Im sure you will have a problem with that, and say we don't understand Christian theology, but I do understand the source text in the bible. A 10 year old child could understand the source text in the bible. But the 10 year old child would be hopelessly lost as you try to help the child try to understand the Christian interpretation.

    Here is how I would have to reconcile Mormon theology with John 17:11 & 22:
    'that they may be one in purpose, as we are one in purpose.'
    Being separate and distinct Persons in the Trinity, They can be one in Their perfect purpose, and those that believe can be one in exactly the same way.
    Done, straight forward, no interpretation problems. A 10 year old child would say 'yes I understand' and 'I believe'.

    So if you are having a hard time grasping the Trinity reread John 17:11 & 22, and maybe the light will come on.
     
  9. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    A 10-year old child can also understand that the chapter of John 17 is talking about God's glory ONLY and not His Divinity. It is still you, and other lds, that have to twist Scripture to fit your theology based on your lack of understanding.
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    God's Father was Elohim. The first God mentioned in the bible. The fourth word uttered in the bible.
     
  11. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    That is Jesus' Father---for it was Jesus that created the world! God the Father has no father!
    Isa_40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
    Eph_3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    He gave us his glory that we may one, as they are one.

    You keep reflecting the point by focusing on the glory. Each response focuses on the glory and not on what the glory brings us, which is: that they may be one, as we are one.

    In order to understand this scripture, you have to focus on whats important, and in this case Jesus is telling us about the Trinity. He says, the Trinity is one, and you believers may be one, as we are one.

    Ask yourself can the oneness of the Trinity in Christian theology be transferred to the believers? Jesus says it can, and Momon theology agrees. Can Jesus say the same thing for Trinity theology. If it cannot, then again you are twisting the scripture, not me.
     
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    El is Jesus's Father. He is our Heavenly Father.

    Elohim is the council of the Gods (including El's Father) that is mentioned in the first line of the bible.

    Elohim was involved in the spiritual creation that happened in the first chapter of Genesis.

    Jesus was invlolved in the material creation of all things in the second chapter of Genesis.
     
  14. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Mechanical Translation Dictionary

    If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.Exodus 22:8 (KJV)

    A judge is one who possesses great "power" and "authority." The Hebrew word behind the word "judges" in the passage above is אל הים elohiym [H:430], the plural form of the word אל וה elo’ah [H:433]. You may notice the first two letters of this word is the word אל el [H:410], meaning "mighty one," which we discussed in the last section. Because the word elo’ah is derived from el, they are very similar in meaning.

    The word elo’ah, "one of power and authority," can also be applied to God or any other god.

    Oh that I might have my request; and that God (elo’ah) would grant me the thing that I long for! Job 6:8 (KJV)

    Then shall he sweep by as a wind, and shall pass over, and be guilty, even he whose might is his god (elo’ah). Habakkuk 1:11 (ASV)

    The word אל הים elohiym [H:430], the plural form of אל וה elo’ah [H:433], is frequently used as a proper name for Yahweh, the creator of heaven and earth.

    These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth in their filling, in the day that Yahweh Elohiym made the earth and the heavens.Genesis 2:4

    The "power and authority" of Yahweh can be, and is, passed on to others as we see in the following verse.

    And Yahweh said unto Moses, "See, I have given you Elohiym for Pharaoh: and Aaron your brother will be your prophet." Exodus 7:1

    What does Yahweh mean by "See I have given you"? Is there something physical about Moses that Yahweh gave to him which could have been "seen" showing his "power and authority"? In our discussion of the word אל el [H:410], we learned this word represented horns of power and the staff of authority. Did Moses also have these symbols?

    And Yahweh said to [Moses], "What is this in your hand?" And he said, "A staff." And he said, "Cast it down to the ground" and he cast it down to the ground and it became a serpent and Moses fled from before it. Exodus 4:2,3

    Yahweh took an ordinary staff of a shepherd, turned it into an instrument of power and authority and gave it to Moses to do great miracles. We do know Moses did carry a staff representing his authority, but what about the horns?

    And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of the testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses knew not that the skin of his face shone by reason of his speaking with him. And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw

    Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.Exodus 34:29,30 (ASV)

    In this verse, we find there was a physical change in Moses which created fear in the people. Was it just a light coming off him that generated this fear? No—as we shall see, the above translation "skin of his face shone," is a poor translation of the Hebrew. The Hebrew word translated as "shone" is קרן qaran [7160], which literally means "to have horns."

    Interestingly, many paintings and sculptures of Moses depict him with horns such as in Michelangelo’s sculpture of Moses.

    It has been speculated the "horns" on Moses’ face are "rays" of light that shone from his face, hence the translation we read in all English Bibles. However, there are other Hebrew words meaning "to shine" and if that was what the author had intended, he would have used one of those. Instead, he deliberately chose to use the word qaran to show Moses was indeed one of power and authority. This is an example of my reasons for desiring a "mechanical" and "literal" translation of the Hebrew Bible, so the reader can read the text without the translators’ bias being interjected into the text.

    In my book His Name is One I go into detail about the different names of God. In the next section, I am taking an excerpt from that book.

    The following is an excerpt from the book Ancient Hebrew Dictionary.

    The plural form of elo'ah, meaning power, is elohiym and is often translated as Elohiym. While English plurals only identify quantity, as in more than one, the Hebrew plural can identify quantity as well as quality. Something that is of great size or stature can be written in the plural form. Elohiym is the one of great strength and authority.
     
  15. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    And what servant was he speaking about?
     
  16. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Again, glory, not divinity.
     
  17. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Again glory is not the focus, since we know that we will recieve glory from Jesus. The question has been: Can we be one as Jesus and God are one??

    Jesus says yes, you say no.

    Besides, being 'one' just means you have separate and distinct people that are 'one' in purpose. It does not necessarily mean they are divine. It is just that they are 'one'.

    God and Jesus are 'one' in the same way. They are separate and distinct Persons that are 'one' in purpose. They happen to be divine too.

    So focus on how we can be one as God and Jesus are one. Not on glory or divinity. We and the Trinity are one in the same way because both are one in a perfect purpose.
     
  18. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Acts, because it's the inspired word of God.
     
  19. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your last line. Elohiym is the one of great strength and authority.

    That person with great strength and authority is God (El) and a council with many that have great strength and authority is Elohim. Elohim over the years has been translated into judges, and even angels. God even told Moses that he would be Elohim to his people. So it is an interesting word that diminishes not the idea of a 'council of the Gods' (including El's Father) that were involved in the spirit creation of the earth and all that are on the earth. Elohim is the first God(s) mentioned in the bible.

    Since God the Father and God the Son and God the HS are 3 distinct Persons, which 2 are jettisoned from the Holy Trinity because the bible says "there is no God beside me", "I know no other God", "there has been no other God created".....

    Tell me which of the 3 Persons will you get rid of.

    Mormons take the position that the 3 are so unified in a perfect purpose that they all 3 can make a statement like there is no other God beside me. Even though there really is 2 other Persons in the Godhead, they are so 1 in perfect unity, it is if they are 1 God. They all can say there is no God beside me.

    When They speak, there is no other God beside them, because they speak with absolute power and authority, and what they speak is exatly what the other 2 would say and do. So there are 3, but it is as if they are 1.

    All those scriptures that you quoted are exactly correct. I believe them.
     
  20. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Acts is certainly the inspired word of God. But have you ever wondered why the OT people did not bear the name of Christian? It is because from 700bc to the time of Christ, the OT prophets were hated, and hunted, and killed for talking about a Messiah that would come and be born in a manger, and would be a humble and innocent teacher, and would be put to death on a cross. The Jewish leaders hated this weak Messiah and they went after the prophets who testified of these things. They tried to eliminate scriptures that testified of God's Christ, and the name of Jesus Christ, to eliminate this weak and humble Messiah.

    They could only see the Millennial Messiah, also prophecied in the scriptures, who would come to earth as the mighty Messiah and restore Israel to its once prominent position in world affairs as in the days of David and Solomon. They were interested in the political power this Messiah would bring, and so they rejected and ripped out of scripture the humble Messiah and the OT prophets had to write the humble Messiah in camouflage in order to pass the censors of scripture, the corrupt and evil elders of Israel. So the word 'Christ' was not found, you don't read the name of Jesus anywhere as a testimony that the censors did a good job.

    OTOH, the BOM prophets left the corrupted city of Jerusalem a few years before Babylon came and destroyed it, about 600bc.

    These prophets were not hunted and killed and imprisoned for their knowledge of the humble and the millennial Messiah, and so they were much more willing to say what they were prompted to say by the HS.

    So in the BOM you will find the name of Jesus Christ, and because this name was known and was such a powerful name for these people, the name Christian was a natural outcome, even a century before the people in and around Jerusalem became know as Christians.

    If you are a follower of Christ, the name Christian was a pretty easy nickname to attach to people that followed him. The BOM people just had more freedom and hence, more information about the humble Messiah, Jesus Christ, than did the people around Jerusalem.

    Both books are inspired by God, who had people of the House of Israel around the Jerusalem area and in the Americas. Both peoples, divided by thousands of miles needed to know about the Messiah. OT prophets were hunted and hated and therefore were forced to give less information than BOM prophets were freer to say the things that God wanted said.

    Hope this helps.
     
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