LDS BOOK OF MORMON FALSE HISTORY 2

[Dale]

McConkie's full quote "God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage."

Well that is the difference between you and us. You worship an incomprehensible invisible immaterial substance without gender.

We worship our Heavenly Father in whose image we are made, He loves us as his children. We are all part of the family of heaven and earth.

withwonderingawe:
"You worship an incomprehensible invisible immaterial substance without gender. "


Yes, that is why the Ten Commandments prohibit idolatry. Since God cannot be drawn or painted or sculpted, all idols are false. Do you have some other explanation for the command against idolatry?

You say that God is "incomprehensible." While it is true that our finite minds can never fully comprehend the infinite, God is know through revelation, He chooses to reveal Himself.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane Doe,

If you are disavowing Brigham Young and other early Apostles, it makes your church look pretty disorganized, doesn't it? Brigham Young is the most eminent Mormon besides Joseph Smith. Who can we trust for a legitimate interpretation of Mormon doctrine?

Hi Dale, welcome to this particular sub-forum!

When a someone (no matter who it is) speaks at your church, their words are not automatically thus-saith-the-Lord cannon, to be bound with scripture-- correct? The words of "Mike" may indeed agree with cannon, but they themselves are not cannon.

It is likewise with the LDS Church: when someone (no matter who it is) speaks, their words are not automatically thus-saith-the-Lord cannon, to be bound with scripture. The words of spoken may indeed agree with cannon, but they themselves are not cannon. The quotes is post 22 are examples of non-canonical words.

LDS cannon is found in scripture (which LDS view to the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price), and official declarations and proclamations. These are taught from and studied directly (with guidance of the Holy Ghost of course), and with the aide of study manuals. If you want I can link any of these resources.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, that is why the Ten Commandments prohibit idolatry. Since God cannot be drawn or painted or sculpted, all idols are false. Do you have some other explanation for the command against idolatry?

The command against idolatry is about putting other things before God. Anciently people would put literal pages gods there. Nowadays the common issue is people putting things (like money) before God and worshipping their wallets more than God. That's not ok-- we should have no gods before Him.

 

[withwonderingawe]

withwonderingawe:
"You worship an incomprehensible invisible immaterial substance without gender. "


Yes, that is why the Ten Commandments prohibit idolatry. Since God cannot be drawn or painted or sculpted, all idols are false. Do you have some other explanation for the command against idolatry?

You say that God is "incomprehensible." While it is true that our finite minds can never fully comprehend the infinite, God is know through revelation, He chooses to reveal Himself.

Maybe because stone gods are false?

In Deut 4 Moses warns the people;
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

To Moses his God was a living God one which could see because he had eyes, he could hear because he had ears and smell the sweet savory of a sacrifice because he had a nose. What is most important here is Moses worshiped a God that could eat, can an immaterial substance eat?

In Acts 17 Paul asks the question of some idol worshipers
19 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Move that to today and ask; for as much as we are the offspring of God should we think of him as an invisible immaterial substance without body parts or passions? Or should we believe the Bible when it says that man is made in the image and likeness of God?

When Jesus was resurrected and visited his Apostles they were afraid because they thought they were looking at a spirit. Jesus told them not to be afraid for a spirit does not have flesh and bone as he has. He then sat down and enjoyed some fish and honey and probably some bread, figs and wine. He wanted them to know his body was very real. This is the body which is the expressed image of his Father's.

*I don't call God incomprehensible, the Bible teaches that the light shined forth in the darkness and darkness comprehended it not. It's the creeds of the Trinity which do.

".....The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible...." Athanasian Creed 500 ad.

The moment I read that I knew there was something very wrong.

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17

 

[BigDaddy4]

When a someone (no matter who it is) speaks at your church, their words are not automatically thus-saith-the-Lord cannon, to be bound with scripture-- correct? The words of "Mike" may indeed agree with cannon, but they themselves are not cannon.

This is a poor excuse that does not hold water. We are not talking about some ordinary "Mike" in a local church. We are talking about leaders, prophets, apostles, etc. of your church. They are supposed to be mouthpieces of God on earth, right? They should know better than to espouse "personal opinions" that are contrary to God's word, or, in the lds case, other canonized scripture. Leaders and teachers of God's word are held to a higher standard by God.

Titus 2:7-8
"In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us."

James 3:1
"Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

1 Tim 1:3-7
"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm."

By easily dismissing what your past leaders have said on certain things as "non-canonical", you are admitting that they are against God's word and should not be considered teachers. If they are not teachers, there is no way they should be prophets, apostles, Quorum members, etc. Your "leaders" have and are leading the flock astray. Why do you follow them?

 

[Dale]

Maybe because stone gods are false?

In Deut 4 Moses warns the people;
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

To Moses his God was a living God one which could see because he had eyes, he could hear because he had ears and smell the sweet savory of a sacrifice because he had a nose. What is most important here is Moses worshiped a God that could eat, can an immaterial substance eat?

In Acts 17 Paul asks the question of some idol worshipers
19 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Move that to today and ask; for as much as we are the offspring of God should we think of him as an invisible immaterial substance without body parts or passions? Or should we believe the Bible when it says that man is made in the image and likeness of God?

When Jesus was resurrected and visited his Apostles they were afraid because they thought they were looking at a spirit. Jesus told them not to be afraid for a spirit does not have flesh and bone as he has. He then sat down and enjoyed some fish and honey and probably some bread, figs and wine. He wanted them to know his body was very real. This is the body which is the expressed image of his Father's.

*I don't call God incomprehensible, the Bible teaches that the light shined forth in the darkness and darkness comprehended it not. It's the creeds of the Trinity which do.

".....The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible...." Athanasian Creed 500 ad.

The moment I read that I knew there was something very wrong.

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17

Withwonderingawe:

<< Move that to today and ask; for as much as we are the offspring of God should we think of him as an invisible immaterial substance without body parts or passions? Or should we believe the Bible when it says that man is made in the image and likeness of God? >>


"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
--John 4: 23-24 NIV

Or, if you must use the King James version:

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
--John 4: 23-24 KJV



"God is spirit," or "God is a spirit," whichever you prefer.

The OT doesn't say that Jehovah God eats, it says that pagan gods and pagan idols do not eat.

Your notion that because we are made in the image of God, then God has a physical, male, body, is hyper-literalism. The truth is more profound.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Withwonderingawe:

<< Move that to today and ask; for as much as we are the offspring of God should we think of him as an invisible immaterial substance without body parts or passions? Or should we believe the Bible when it says that man is made in the image and likeness of God? >>


"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
--John 4: 23-24 NIV

Or, if you must use the King James version:

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
--John 4: 23-24 KJV



"God is spirit," or "God is a spirit," whichever you prefer.

The OT doesn't say that Jehovah God eats, it says that pagan gods and pagan idols do not eat.

Your notion that because we are made in the image of God, then God has a physical, male, body, is hyper-literalism. The truth is more profound.

There is absolutely no definition in the Bible of what a spirit is. You have been taught an assumption which is based in Greek Philosophy.

But the passage is not a doctrinal dissertation on the physical nature of God any more than "For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire" is. The passage is a directive on the new way we should worship God. If I were to believe I can only worship God 'in spirit' then my spirit would have to leap out of my body every time I wanted to pray. I'm sure that was not our Savior's intent. What he was saying is that the Jews and Samarians would no longer go to the temple or up on their hillside to worship but would begin to worship God from within.

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers..... But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jer 31

* Yahweh of the Old Testament was indeed a spirit at the time Moses said this But God the Father was an immortal glorified and exalted man who can eat all the food of the Gods/chocolate he wants and gain not a pound.

 

[mmksparbud]

Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God is not a glorified man--He never was a man--a man is created, God never was.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God is not a glorified man--He never was a man--a man is created, God never was.

Again, LDS do not believe that the Father, Son, or Spirit are a man like us (in so much as being liars and sinners). We, like you, believe that the Son does have a body of flesh though-- He was/is a man in He had/has a physical body. Likewise we believe the Father also has a body, and acknowledge you don't share that belief.

 

[mmksparbud]

Again----you may believe whatever you want. We know you believe God the Father is some sort of glorified man, that designation belongs alone to Jesus. Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit:
And Jesus should know.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Again----you may believe whatever you want.

I was simply clarifying LDS beliefs. Num_23:19 does not apply as it's referring to a lying person.

We know you believe God the Father is some sort of glorified man, that designation belongs alone to Jesus. Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit:
And Jesus should know.

Do you believe Jesus not to be God?
Do you believe Jesus to be a spirit without a body?
Or do you, like LDS, believe that things are more complex than that? That God can have a body?

 

[mmksparbud]

I was simply clarifying LDS beliefs. Num_23:19 does not apply as it's referring to a lying person.

Do you believe Jesus not to be God?
Do you believe Jesus to be a spirit without a body?
Or do you, like LDS, believe that things are more complex than that? That God can have a body?

I've already stated--There is God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son--there is one God. And God the Father is Sprit and no one knows what any of that actually is.
Jesus took on a human body, which He retains forever. We are made in His image--and no one knows what that means----- as a corncob doll is made in our image.

And no, Num 23:19 does not mean simply a lying person, it means that God is not a man, therefore He can not lie--- jut as it says. Whatever God says is---if He says you are green with purple polka dots. that is what you would become. If H says the sky is green, it would immediately turn green. He is not, never was, a man.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I've already stated--There is God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son--there is one God. And God the Father is Sprit and no one knows what any of that actually is.
Jesus took on a human body, which He retains forever. We are made in His image--and no one knows what that means----- as a corncob doll is made in our image.

And no, Num 23:19 does not mean simply a lying person, it means that God is not a man, therefore He can not lie--- jut as it says. Whatever God says is---if He says you are green with purple polka dots. that is what you would become. If H says the sky is green, it would immediately turn green. He is not, never was, a man.

Except you believe Jesus is God and also a man.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God is not a glorified man--He never was a man--a man is created, God never was.

Do you not think Mormons know that passage exist?

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

'God' there is El and in this case is referring to the supreme God the Father . The word 'man' there is not adam but an often untranslated or unexpressed word iysh. From Strongs "man, male (in contrast to woman, female)" ....a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation)." It is used to contrast an old man to a young man, a tall man to a short one. It always compares one man to another! As an example in Gen 6 it says; " Noah was a just man/iysh and perfect in his generations...". What he is actually expressing is Noah was a just man compared to all other men who were unjust. Our English just has to say it with many more words.

In the case of Num 23 the phrase "the son of man" is ben Adam meaning of course a mortal man. Moses is saying 'El is not like mortal men who lie but an immortal man who does not lie. Neither is He a son of Adam that he should repent'.

The passage assume that God is an immortal man.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you not think Mormons know that passage exist?

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

'God' there is El and in this case is referring to the supreme God the Father . The word 'man' there is not adam but an often untranslated or unexpressed word iysh. From Strongs "man, male (in contrast to woman, female)" ....a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation)." It is used to contrast an old man to a young man, a tall man to a short one. It always compares one man to another! As an example in Gen 6 it says; " Noah was a just man/iysh and perfect in his generations...". What he is actually expressing is Noah was a just man compared to all other men who were unjust. Our English just has to say it with many more words.

In the case of Num 23 the phrase "the son of man" is ben Adam meaning of course a mortal man. Moses is saying 'El is not like mortal men who lie but an immortal man who does not lie. Neither is He a son of Adam that he should repent'.

The passage assume that God is an immortal man.

I do wish you would state where you get your info from---

MAN: An adult male human. As mortal. Also, used to mean "each" in the sense of an individual; Each, one. [Strong's #: 376, 377, 582, 606]

However you want to interpret it---God is not a mortal man (human)--never was.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I do wish you would state where you get your info from---

MAN: An adult male human. As mortal. Also, used to mean "each" in the sense of an individual; Each, one. [Strong's #: 376, 377, 582, 606]

However you want to interpret it---God is not a mortal man (human)--never was.

This leaves the impression you think Jesus was not God. I don't think that's accurate of your beliefs.

 

[mmksparbud]

This leaves the impression you think Jesus was not God. I don't think that's accurate of your beliefs.

We were discussing God the Father.

 

[Jane_Doe]

We were discussing God the Father.

None of the verses you're pointing to say that. They all just say "God".

 

[mmksparbud]

It is the old testament-----It is God the Father when they spoke of Him as the Son was not in common use yet until the NT.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It is the old testament

One of the two verses you're using. The other is NT.

-----It is God the Father when they spoke of Him as the Son was not in common use yet until the NT.

Where does it say that in the Bible? Does Christ, the I AM, not speak in the OT?