LDS BOOK OF MORMON FALSE HISTORY 2

dzheremi

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Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Nice try, Peter, but you are adding all these definite articles into the verse to make it conform to Mormon theology when it does not. They are not actually there, because in no place in the Holy Bible does Christ claim to be the Father (unlike in the BOM), nor is that ever claimed about Him. You know that when you quote the Bible here and put the citation, the website automatically hyperlinks to the relevant passage which is visible when you roll your cursor over it, right? When I do that with the citation you provided, it says "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Note the lack of definite articles in that list of what His name shall be called. This is miles away from saying "the Everlasting Father", in the same way that talking about "the Spirit" is different than talking about "spirit" in some otherwise defined fashion. Christ never, ever claims to be the Father in the Holy Bible. He does in the BOM. That is a contradiction.

So the bible and the BOM agree, Jesus is called the Father also at times.

No they don't, and no He isn't. It doesn't say that at the source. You made it say that by misquoting the Bible.
 
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dzheremi

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First off you have no idea as to whether or not Christ visited the Americas.

If you are going to attempt to argue from absence then it could be argued with equal force that He visited the moon or Mars or some made-up planet like Kolob, or any place that exists or doesn't exist. Then anyone can claim anything so long as it is not testified to in the scriptures. That's plain foolishness.

This is your opinion and the bible teaches tha he was going to go to his other sheep of the house of Israel.

Yes, He did, and these other sheep are the gentiles who are in the midst of the Lord (not a specific land like the Americas, of which there is no evidence He ever visited), as is testified to in the writings of the ancient fathers:

For He was speaking to the first fold of the stock of the fleshly Israel. But there were others of the stock of the faith of this Israel, and they were yet without, were among the Gentiles, predestinated, not yet gathered in. These He knew who had predestinated them; He knew, who had come to redeem them with the shedding of His Own Blood. He saw them who did not yet see Him; He knew them who yet believed not on Him. "Other sheep", says He, "I have which are not of this fold;" because they are not of the stock of the flesh of Israel. But nevertheless they shall not be outside of this fold, "for them also I must bring, that there may be One Fold, and One Shepherd."

-- St. Augustine, Sermon 88 on the New Testament

It's not my opinion as though any man is free to disagree with it because after all, who am I. It's the faith of the Church by which we who are not of ethnic Jewish lineage nevertheless are members of the body of Christ, the Israel of God.

Either you haven't read the Book of Mormon or you have read selected parts.

You specifically asked for examples of how the BOM and the Holy Bible contradict. Of course that's going to involve quoting parts. What have I done wrong in giving you two examples of what you asked for?

In your understanding of the trinity I thought Christ was the Father as well as the son.

That's your own misunderstanding of what we are discussing, as I've never so much as hinted as such insane blasphemy. Lord have mercy.
 
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dzheremi

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You seem to be in a sarcastic mood here.

No, it is that you seemed to say "the BOM must be from God because look at the words it uses to describe Jesus." In that context it is perfectly acceptable to underline the bit about content rather than the use of individual words, as my example of shared words between the Holy Bible and the Qur'an showed that it is not a matter of what words are found where. It's about what the book itself says (its content), as you seemed to acknowledge in that reply. I'm agreeing with you. I'm just trying to draw your arguments out beyond this surface-level "well it uses these words, therefore XYZ" understanding, by pointing out that other religions that neither of us recognize as Christian have their Jesuses which are even messiahs, too, so that can't be the be-all and end-all of whether or not their holy books are actually from God.

So I would just ask: what other way would we reject it, because its whole content turns out to be anti-Christ????

So now it's a matter of degree? No, I can't agree with that. Christianity and only Christianity is 100% true, si to the extent that other religions are to any degree in conflict with Christianity, then they are to be rejected. Even your favorite early Church father, St. Justin Martyr, who blessed us all with his theology of the "seeds of the Word" which are planted in pre-Christian religions did not therefore validate according to the degree to which these 'seeds' were found (rather, he saw what they had right and used that as a means to show their fulfillment in Christ). In truth, there is a lot which Christianity and Islam agree on regarding Jesus: He was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and will come again in the future to judge mankind on last day. Islam teaches even that Christ is the messiah, as I have already shown. Not even Judaism teaches that (obviously!), and yet we share a significant amount of scripture with the Jews while sharing absolutely none with the Muslims. So I don't think that this is a sensible way to look at things.

What post did I say both the Qur'an and the BOM were written by prophets of God to say those words.
Not in post 181 that responds to this topic?

You didn't, Peter. I wanted to test what you had written, so I brought up the Qur'an in order to do so.

Your trying hard to move the goalpost, from what the BOM says vs what the Qur'an says about Jesus Christ (which is the topic). You want to enlarge your search now to include all LDS thougnt, not just the topic BOM.

That's not moving the goalposts. That's saying that if we are to treat other things according to the logic by which you established the BOM as the word of God (and I quote, "both [the Holy Bible and the BOM] must have been written by prophets of God to say those words"), we'd have to accept those too on the basis of the words that they use. You've since wisely stated otherwise, which was the point of my reply in the first place (to get you to rethink what you had written).

You are doing that because I am right about the BOM.

No, I'm doing that because your argument admitted even more holy books than I know that your religion actually recognizes.

It agrees with the bible. From beginning to the end it focuses on one message, and that is Jesus Christ, God of the OT took on flesh and came to earth to preach the gospel and be sacrificed for the sins of all mankind.

These are statements of faith that you believe about your religion and book, so I'm not going to knock them beyond saying that I and every other Christian cannot agree that the BOM is the word of God or that it testifies to Jesus Christ our God as prophesied and manifest in our own Christian religion, the Holy Bible bearing witness.

Yes, it even says that Jesus came to the Americas and visited part of the House of Israel here, so that these people who were 15,000 miles from their brothers in Jerusalem would know for a surety that Jesus had come to earth and done all that their prophets had prophecied of since 600bc.

More faith claims; fine for you, yet anathema to Christianity.

Today there is evidence that Jesus did come to people in the Americas after his resurrection

No there isn't. You and I have discussed this before ad nauseam. There is no evidence.

Will you join the Mormon church when the outward evidence is so overwhelming that Jesus came to the Americas just after his resurrection in Jerusalem? Evidence so powerful that you cannot deny it any longer?

You're putting me in a tough spot here, Peter. Obviously I will never join the Mormon religion, since my own religion, to which I am in all ways happily yoked, refutes and rebukes it with no hesitation nor malice towards people, but you are specifically asking me if I would do so in a context in which I am kinda forced to say will never, ever arise (which I don't personally have a problem saying, but that other Mormon posters so frequently regard this as slanderous, un-Christlike, mean, etc., and in this case it seems especially so to me because it's not just about a piece of theology in an academic or historical sense, but about the future hope that you have that the narrative you have been fed is not a blatant lie from the devil, which I have to conclude it is). Because truly it won't. Jesus could visit the Americas tomorrow to tell us all about His previous visit to the Americas, and it would not make the Mormon religion true. What you do not seem to be understanding by asking this question is that the BOM narrative a huge red flag regarding the historicity of Mormonism (read: that it is not based in historically-grounded events); but even if that were not the case (say, if the BOM's content did not contradict the historical record so thoroughly, or even at all...I don't know how that would be the case, but y'know...this is clearly already an alternate reality), there would still be grievous theological error in it that commands every right-believing Christian to refuse it. Mormonism is not just historically wrong, it is theologically, soteriologically, etc. wrong as well. There are so many reasons to not ever embrace it that have little to nothing to do with whatever historical evidence that Mormons claim to have (now or later), that the BOM narrative recedes in importance quite rapidly once you learn what else the religion requires you to believe.

I could meet Jesus in the Americas tomorrow and still be assured that He would not tell me that His Father is a man possessing a physical body, Who 'progressed' to Godhood as He also did, and as I could one day do. And if this 'Jesus' were to tell me anything like that, I should hope and pray that I would run to the hills as fast as my legs or the nearest llama could carry me, because such a false Jesus would surely be the anti-Christ.
 
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fatboys

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If you are going to attempt to argue from absence then it could be argued with equal force that He visited the moon or Mars or some made-up planet like Kolob, or any place that exists or doesn't exist. Then anyone can claim anything so long as it is not testified to in the scriptures. That's plain foolishness.



Yes, He did, and these other sheep are the gentiles who are in the midst of the Lord (not a specific land like the Americas, of which there is no evidence He ever visited), as is testified to in the writings of the ancient fathers:

For He was speaking to the first fold of the stock of the fleshly Israel. But there were others of the stock of the faith of this Israel, and they were yet without, were among the Gentiles, predestinated, not yet gathered in. These He knew who had predestinated them; He knew, who had come to redeem them with the shedding of His Own Blood. He saw them who did not yet see Him; He knew them who yet believed not on Him. "Other sheep", says He, "I have which are not of this fold;" because they are not of the stock of the flesh of Israel. But nevertheless they shall not be outside of this fold, "for them also I must bring, that there may be One Fold, and One Shepherd."

-- St. Augustine, Sermon 88 on the New Testament

It's not my opinion as though any man is free to disagree with it because after all, who am I. It's the faith of the Church by which we who are not of ethnic Jewish lineage nevertheless are members of the body of Christ, the Israel of God.



You specifically asked for examples of how the BOM and the Holy Bible contradict. Of course that's going to involve quoting parts. What have I done wrong in giving you two examples of what you asked for?



That's your own misunderstanding of what we are discussing, as I've never so much as hinted as such insane blasphemy. Lord have mercy.
So he visited others
 
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Jane_Doe

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Yes there are. Christ is not the Father and the Son, and Christ did not visit the Americas. Both are contradicted by the Bible (which testifies explicitly to His relationship with the Father -- not His being the Father, since He's not -- and the places where He and His apostles visited, which did not include the Americas) and the faith of the Christian Church, yet are present in Mormonism and attested to in the BOM. Those are contradictions.
1) The Bible also refers to the Son as "the Father", such as Isaiah 9:6. That's agreement, not contradiction.
2) The Bible does not say "Christ did not visit the Americas". So again, no contradiction.

This is really not up for debate, and I am not seeking such a debate nor will I submit to being part of one by the force of Mormon insistence that their religion's narrative does not contradict the Bible and the historic Christian faith. Don't ask for things that you can't actually handle receiving.
You made as assertion. We are asking you to back it up, which thus far you have utterly failed to do so.
 
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Peter1000

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No, it is that you seemed to say "the BOM must be from God because look at the words it uses to describe Jesus." In that context it is perfectly acceptable to underline the bit about content rather than the use of individual words, as my example of shared words between the Holy Bible and the Qur'an showed that it is not a matter of what words are found where. It's about what the book itself says (its content), as you seemed to acknowledge in that reply. I'm agreeing with you. I'm just trying to draw your arguments out beyond this surface-level "well it uses these words, therefore XYZ" understanding, by pointing out that other religions that neither of us recognize as Christian have their Jesuses which are even messiahs, too, so that can't be the be-all and end-all of whether or not their holy books are actually from God.



So now it's a matter of degree? No, I can't agree with that. Christianity and only Christianity is 100% true, si to the extent that other religions are to any degree in conflict with Christianity, then they are to be rejected. Even your favorite early Church father, St. Justin Martyr, who blessed us all with his theology of the "seeds of the Word" which are planted in pre-Christian religions did not therefore validate according to the degree to which these 'seeds' were found (rather, he saw what they had right and used that as a means to show their fulfillment in Christ). In truth, there is a lot which Christianity and Islam agree on regarding Jesus: He was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and will come again in the future to judge mankind on last day. Islam teaches even that Christ is the messiah, as I have already shown. Not even Judaism teaches that (obviously!), and yet we share a significant amount of scripture with the Jews while sharing absolutely none with the Muslims. So I don't think that this is a sensible way to look at things.



You didn't, Peter. I wanted to test what you had written, so I brought up the Qur'an in order to do so.



That's not moving the goalposts. That's saying that if we are to treat other things according to the logic by which you established the BOM as the word of God (and I quote, "both [the Holy Bible and the BOM] must have been written by prophets of God to say those words"), we'd have to accept those too on the basis of the words that they use. You've since wisely stated otherwise, which was the point of my reply in the first place (to get you to rethink what you had written).



No, I'm doing that because your argument admitted even more holy books than I know that your religion actually recognizes.



These are statements of faith that you believe about your religion and book, so I'm not going to knock them beyond saying that I and every other Christian cannot agree that the BOM is the word of God or that it testifies to Jesus Christ our God as prophesied and manifest in our own Christian religion, the Holy Bible bearing witness.



More faith claims; fine for you, yet anathema to Christianity.



No there isn't. You and I have discussed this before ad nauseam. There is no evidence.



You're putting me in a tough spot here, Peter. Obviously I will never join the Mormon religion, since my own religion, to which I am in all ways happily yoked, refutes and rebukes it with no hesitation nor malice towards people, but you are specifically asking me if I would do so in a context in which I am kinda forced to say will never, ever arise (which I don't personally have a problem saying, but that other Mormon posters so frequently regard this as slanderous, un-Christlike, mean, etc., and in this case it seems especially so to me because it's not just about a piece of theology in an academic or historical sense, but about the future hope that you have that the narrative you have been fed is not a blatant lie from the devil, which I have to conclude it is). Because truly it won't. Jesus could visit the Americas tomorrow to tell us all about His previous visit to the Americas, and it would not make the Mormon religion true. What you do not seem to be understanding by asking this question is that the BOM narrative a huge red flag regarding the historicity of Mormonism (read: that it is not based in historically-grounded events); but even if that were not the case (say, if the BOM's content did not contradict the historical record so thoroughly, or even at all...I don't know how that would be the case, but y'know...this is clearly already an alternate reality), there would still be grievous theological error in it that commands every right-believing Christian to refuse it. Mormonism is not just historically wrong, it is theologically, soteriologically, etc. wrong as well. There are so many reasons to not ever embrace it that have little to nothing to do with whatever historical evidence that Mormons claim to have (now or later), that the BOM narrative recedes in importance quite rapidly once you learn what else the religion requires you to believe.

I could meet Jesus in the Americas tomorrow and still be assured that He would not tell me that His Father is a man possessing a physical body, Who 'progressed' to Godhood as He also did, and as I could one day do. And if this 'Jesus' were to tell me anything like that, I should hope and pray that I would run to the hills as fast as my legs or the nearest llama could carry me, because such a false Jesus would surely be the anti-Christ.
Wow. You meet Jesus in the Americas, and he testifies that his Father, God the Father possesses a physical body, who progressed to Godhood as Jesus also did, and that you could one day, but because of your fanatical tradition, you would be able to block the intense holiness eminating from Jesus, and you would know he was the anti-christ, (a dark and demonic person), and you would get on a llama and get away as far and as fast as you could.

Well, let me tell you what I think. Because of the good man that you are, you would be able to recognize Jesus when you saw him. You would feel his intense love for you and his intense spirit eminating from him that would drive you to your knees to worship.

Then when you learned that from him, that God has a phisical body..... you would, in an attitude of worship, accept and come into line with the Godhead, and all will be well with you.

I have been taught, and I believe that when Jesus comes a second time, that he will not visit Rome, or Istanbul, or Alexandria, or Antioch, or Carthage, or London or Germany first, but after his visit to Jerusalem, and raised the 2 prophets and saved and forgave the Jews, he would head to Salt Lake City
and meet with the Mormon prophet and apostles and would begin his organization of the millennial government from there.

All the world will see this and hear about this meeting, and because the wicked have been destroyed, the HS can be much more effective in converting millions to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

There will be many that will still reject the words of Jesus Christ, even in the face of Jesus telling them the truth.

Obviously there is an assumption that this is all going to happen, but I hope if it does, you are not one of these who reject Jesus's words as he speaks them because it does not agree with the bible and your tradition.
 
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Peter1000

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Nice try, Peter, but you are adding all these definite articles into the verse to make it conform to Mormon theology when it does not. They are not actually there, because in no place in the Holy Bible does Christ claim to be the Father (unlike in the BOM), nor is that ever claimed about Him. You know that when you quote the Bible here and put the citation, the website automatically hyperlinks to the relevant passage which is visible when you roll your cursor over it, right? When I do that with the citation you provided, it sayshe
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Note the lack of definite articles in that list of what His name shall be called. This is miles away from saying "the Everlasting Father", in the same way that ta
lking about "tSpirit" is different than talking about "spirit" in some otherwise defined fashion. Christ never, ever claims to be the Father in the Holy Bible. He does in the BOM. That is a contradiction.



No they don't, and no He isn't. It doesn't say that at the source. You made it say that by misquoting the Bible.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Note the lack of definite articles in that list of what His name shall be called. This is miles away from saying "the Everlasting Father", in the same way that ta

I quoted from the KJV. The KJV has the difinitive atricles 'the' in the text. Your translation does not, so again I'm not sure where we can go to get to the bottom of it. That is one of the disadvantages of having hundreds of translations of the bible.

If Jesus was known by Isaiah as 'the' Everlasting Father, or his name is Everlasting Father, it still adds up to the same thing. Besides Jesus can act in behalf of the Father whenever he likes. Since they both are in such perfect unity, They can communicate with humans as God the Father, or God the Son, or God the HS.

Besides, what scripture did you read in the BOM that said Jesus said he was God the Father?
 
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dzheremi

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1) The Bible also refers to the Son as "the Father", such as Isaiah 9:6.

I addressed this already in my earlier reply to Peter (#201). This is a misquoting of the Bible. Jesus is never referred to as "the Father" anywhere.

That's agreement, not contradiction.

No, that's distortion. That's claiming that the Bible says something which it does not say.

2) The Bible does not say "Christ did not visit the Americas". So again, no contradiction.

I also addressed this in my reply to Fatboys (#203). This kind of argument from absence is extremely weak in this context, to the point that anything can substituted in there with equal force. After all, yes, the Bible does not say that Jesus did not visit the Americas, but it also does not say that He did not visit Mars, or Pluto, or any other place. So therefore we are to conclude that He did in fact visit these other places, any maybe even more? No. That is not a sound argument.

You made as assertion. We are asking you to back it up, which thus far you have utterly failed to do so.

This is mighty rich coming directly after your "Well the Bible doesn't say that he DIDN'T XYZ!" non-argument.

I have backed up my points just fine; you apparently have just not read my earlier replies, as you are repeating points already made by others and answered earlier in the thread.
 
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Peter1000

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dzheremi says:
Christianity and only Christianity is 100% true, si to the extent that other religions are to any degree in conflict with Christianity, then they are to be rejected.
There is not another Christian church that believe 100% the way your Christian church believes. So you must also reject all Christian churches except for yours. Good going.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I addressed this already in my earlier reply to Peter (#201). This is a misquoting of the Bible. Jesus is never referred to as "the Father" anywhere.



No, that's distortion. That's claiming that the Bible says something which it does not say.



I also addressed this in my reply to Fatboys (#203). This kind of argument from absence is extremely weak in this context, to the point that anything can substituted in there with equal force. After all, yes, the Bible does not say that Jesus did not visit the Americas, but it also does not say that He did not visit Mars, or Pluto, or any other place. So therefore we are to conclude that He did in fact visit these other places, any maybe even more? No. That is not a sound argument.



This is mighty rich coming directly after your "Well the Bible doesn't say that he DIDN'T XYZ!" non-argument.

I have backed up my points just fine; you apparently have just not read my earlier replies, as you are repeating points already made by others and answered earlier in the thread.
Dzheremi, you haven't backed up your argument "The Bible and the BoM contradict" at all. Post 201 is outside the Bible and totally doesn't matter for the sake of this discussion (StAugustine is not the Bible). Your second argmeuent has no leg because you're trying to make a point based on something that Bible totally doesn't say. It's just downright silly.
 
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Jane_Doe

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dzheremi says:

There is not another Christian church that believe 100% the way your Christian church believes. So you must also reject all Christian churches except for yours. Good going.
Yep. Copitcs firmly reject all other Christian groups, hence the forbiddance on even visiting them..
 
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mmksparbud

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This is in the original language:

#0410 אֵל 'el {ale} shortened from H0352; TWOT - 93a; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power
#1368 גִּבּוֹר gibbowr {ghib-bore'} or (shortened) גִּבֹּר gibbor {ghib-bore'} intensive from H1396; TWOT - 310b
adj
1) strong, mighty
n m
2) strong man, brave man, mighty man
#5703 עַד `ad {ad}

from H5710; TWOT - 1565a; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
1a) ancient (of past time)
1b) for ever (of future time)
1b1) of continuous existence
1c) for ever (of God's existence)


These are the words that have been translated into "the everlasting Father"
There is no "the"---even in for "the Prince of Peace" there is no "the"--it is

#8269 שַׂר sar {sar} from H8323; TWOT - 2295a; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) prince, ruler, leader, chief, chieftain, official, captain
1a) chieftain, leader
1b) vassal, noble, official (under king)
1c) captain, general, commander (military)
1d) chief, head, overseer (of other official classes)
1e) heads, princes (of religious office)
1f) elders (of representative leaders of people)
1g) merchant-princes (of rank and dignity)
1h) patron-angel
1i) Ruler of rulers (of God)
1j) warden
#7965 שָׁלוֹם shalowm {shaw-lome'} or שָׁלֹם shalom {shaw-lome'} from H7999; TWOT - 2401a; n m

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) completeness, soundness, welfare, peace
1a) completeness (in number)
1b) safety, soundness (in body)
1c) welfare, health, prosperity
1d) peace, quiet, tranquillity, contentment
1e) peace, friendship
1e1) of human relationships
1e2) with God especially in covenant relationship
1f) peace (from war)

Strong's Number 7965 Hebrew Dictionary of the Old Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com
 
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dzheremi

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I quoted from the KJV. The KJV has the difinitive atricles 'the' in the text. Your translation does not, so again I'm not sure where we can go to get to the bottom of it. That is one of the disadvantages of having hundreds of translations of the bible.

I'm sure how: We can look at the actual Hebrew:

כִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמֹ֑ו וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמֹ֜ו פֶּ֠לֶא יֹועֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבֹּ֔ור אֲבִיעַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום

Now I am by no means any kind of Hebrew scholar (can't read it), though I do know something of how Semitic languages tend to work, and I can use concordances as well as anyone, and it looks like what we have in the above is this word ’ă·ḇî·‘aḏ (אֲבִיעַ֖ד), which I have highlighted in the above text. Going to the definition as given at the above link, it gives the root as 'ad, which checks out with what other concordances also show. But knowing something of how Semitic languages tend to work, and being able to read the concordance that I literally just linked to at the end of the previous sentence, I know that if we are going to have "Father" anywhere in the sentence (which te first concordance linked to just above the Hebrew text does not even include), it should be a form of 'ab, as this is a common Semitic root (found also in Arabic, the Ethiopian Semitic languages, etc. ; for instance, when we talk about the Father in Arabic, we say el-'ab). Going to the roots list found in the second concordance, that is exactly what we find there for "Father" (which is included in the English translation there, as they use the KJV): אָב 'ab. Yet we don't find that in isolation anywhere in the Hebrew text, only as a part of this word ’ă·ḇî·‘aḏ (אֲבִיעַ֖ד). Why is this relevant? Because abiad is defined as "everlasting" (see the first concordance). This is another form that we would expect, as it has cognates in other Semitic languages like Arabic, where to say "everlasting", you say أبدي 'abdi. Both contain the initial 'ab sequence (indeed, in Arabic, 'father' is written أب, which is the same as the first three letters of the word 'abdi), the difference apparently being that in Hebrew this is able to be broken down into two composite terms ('ab and 'ad), whereas I don't know if this is possible in Arabic ('ab clearly means 'father', but I don't know that 'ad means anything; I'd have to look it up in an Arabic dictionary or Semitic root list, and I am away from my books).

This is all to explain how it is that you can get some translations of the Hebrew that read "everlasting Father", as the KJV does, and some that read just "everlasting", as the translation at the first concordance does. Neither is wrong, so far as I can tell from this very basic analysis but it depends on how you parse ’ă·ḇî·‘aḏ.

In either case, the Hebrew definite article הַ (ha-) is missing from this word or clause (which is present in other words in the passage, such as ham·miś·rāh 'the government', which we can see at the either concordance has a base/undefined from of מִשְׂרָה misrah, so we can know that the initial h is not a part of the triconsonantal root), so its presence in translation is a matter of the translation, not the original source text. Hence the KJV features it, but the NKJV doesn't. Since it's absent in the original, I am inclined to say that the NKJV is the more faithful of the two, though interestingly other forms of the passage which present themselves are more literal such as Young's Literal Translation translate it like this:

"For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace."

If Jesus was known by Isaiah as 'the' Everlasting Father, or his name is Everlasting Father, it still adds up to the same thing.

Except it doesn't, because the article is missing from the original, so it's not "the" everlasting Father, and it may not even be any kind of father; it is entirely possible and reasonable to read the relevant passage as "everlasting", full stop (see above). But even then, if Christ is everlasting father in some sense that does not confuse the Persons of the Trinity, then okay. That's likewise possible to say (in fact, I have heard it from priests of my own Church, who likewise do not confuse the Persons), but it is not clear to me at all this is what Mormons or Mormon scripture do by claiming that Jesus is the Father, which yes, is the exact wording used in the BOM, supposedly by Jesus Himself. That you will not find in the Holy Scriptures at all, regardless of what Isaiah says or does not say.

Besides Jesus can act in behalf of the Father whenever he likes. Since they both are in such perfect unity, They can communicate with humans as God the Father, or God the Son, or God the HS.

Okay.

Besides, what scripture did you read in the BOM that said Jesus said he was God the Father?

I already gave the citation, with link, in the other post. I believe it was somewhere in Ether.
 
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Peter1000

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I addressed this already in my earlier reply to Peter (#201). This is a misquoting of the Bible. Jesus is never referred to as "the Father" anywhere.



No, that's distortion. That's claiming that the Bible says something which it does not say.



I also addressed this in my reply to Fatboys (#203). This kind of argument from absence is extremely weak in this context, to the point that anything can substituted in there with equal force.
After all, yes, the Bible does not say that Jesus did not visit the Americas, but it also does not say that He did not visit Mars, or Pluto, or any other place. So therefore we are to conclude that He did in fact visit these other places, any maybe even more? No. That is not a sound argument.



This is mighty rich coming directly after your "Well the Bible doesn't say that he DIDN'T XYZ!" non-argument.

I have backed up my points just fine; you apparently have just not read my earlier replies, as you are repeating points already made by others and answered earlier in the thread.

After all, yes, the Bible does not say that Jesus did not visit the Americas, but it also does not say that He did not visit Mars, or Pluto, or any other place. So therefore we are to conclude that He did in fact visit these other places, any maybe even more? No. That is not a sound argument.

You have a good point. However, a thinking, intelligent adult would not make such an absurd substitution. IOW why would Jesus go to Mars or Pluto? Would he go there because under the surface are people from the House of Israel there too??? The obvious answer is no.

Jesus had a reason to go to the Americas. His mission was to the House of Israel and although he did preach to the House of Israel in Jerusalem, there were many other Israelites in the Americas, so he came here too.

We have quoted scripture that relate to other folds that must hear his voice, Christians say these other folds are the gentiles, Mormons say these of folds are other people in the House of Israel in the Americas, which makes more sense because Jesus's mission was to the House of Israel.

So using some common sense rules out Mars and Pluto. Common sense says that because there were Israelites in the Americas, it is not outrages that Jesus would visit them also. He did.
 
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dzheremi

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Dzheremi, you haven't backed up your argument "The Bible and the BoM contradict" at all. Post 201 is outside the Bible and totally doesn't matter for the sake of this discussion (StAugustine is not the Bible). Your second argmeuent has no leg because you're trying to make a point based on something that Bible totally doesn't say. It's just downright silly.

Post #201 quotes the passage in question from the NKJV, so no, it's not outside the Bible at all. And I've just posted an explanation as to how and why the NKJV and the KJV differ in their translation of this passage, in reply to Peter's pointing out that he was quoting from the KJV (this was not clear to me in his initial post as that was not the translation that came up when I hovered over the link as presented in that post; sorry, Peter, if you read this...it's entirely possible that these automatically-added links are stuck on one translation that is not changeable according to which one the poster actually wishes to highlight, so this is by no means your fault). Please read it.

And, yes, I agree that attempting to make a point "based on something that the Bible totally does not say" is downright silly -- that's my point to you and all Mormons and all people who would argue "but the Bible doesn't say that such and such DIDN'T happen!" That's silly.
 
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mmksparbud

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You have a good point. However, a thinking, intelligent adult would not make such an absurd substitution. IOW why would Jesus go to Mars or Pluto? Would he go there because under the surface are people from the House of Israel there too??? The obvious answer is no.

Jesus had a reason to go to the Americas. His mission was to the House of Israel and although he did preach to the House of Israel in Jerusalem, there were many other Israelites in the Americas, so he came here too.

We have quoted scripture that relate to other folds that must hear his voice, Christians say these other folds are the gentiles, Mormons say these of folds are other people in the House of Israel in the Americas, which makes more sense because Jesus's mission was to the House of Israel.

So using some common sense rules out Mars and Pluto. Common sense says that because there were Israelites in the Americas, it is not outrages that Jesus would visit them also. He did.


I guess He went to Ethiopia also--there were---and still are---Jewish converts there.
 
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dzheremi

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You have a good point. However, a thinking, intelligent adult would not make such an absurd substitution.

They would if the entire point of the reply is to emphasize how absurd this form of argument is. The fact that the substitution is crazy and unreasonable is the point, because it can be argued with equal force as something that is likewise not attested to if all you can say is "the Bible doesn't say that this didn't happen." The Bible doesn't say lots of things. The Bible doesn't say that St. Peter and St. Paul ever went out windsurfing together on the Bosporus, or that Job ever entertained his children by making balloon animals for them on their birthdays, or any other obviously-would-have-never-happened thing. That's why nobody in their right mind would argue such things to begin with. Yet Mormons, to their great detriment and the detriment of their religion, suddenly do an about-face when it comes to Jesus visiting the Americas,even though this is equally absent from the scriptures and the testimony of the fathers as any of this more obviously-silly stuff is, all because they have a much later book which they claim is of the period which says that this happened. Well I am a Christian and not a Mormon, so I don't believe that your book is what you claim it is, or that this actually happened. So your argument in favor of it is just as silly as any of these more obviously-silly arguments I am not really making but to make a point: there's just as much evidence for anything I have typed here as for your "Jesus in the Americas" BOM story: Zero.

IOW why would Jesus go to Mars or Pluto? Would he go there because under the surface are people from the House of Israel there too??? The obvious answer is no.

Why would Jesus go to the Americas when there were no people from the House of Israel there, either? The obvious answer is no.

(See how convincing that is?)

Jesus had a reason to go to the Americas. His mission was to the House of Israel and although he did preach to the House of Israel in Jerusalem, there were many other Israelites in the Americas, so he came here too.

No, the Book of Mormon gave Him a reason to do so, and the Book of Mormon is a fantasy.

We have quoted scripture that relate to other folds that must hear his voice, Christians say these other folds are the gentiles, Mormons say these of folds are other people in the House of Israel in the Americas, which makes more sense because Jesus's mission was to the House of Israel.

Or it would make more sense if you could ever actually prove that such people existed and resided in the Americas at the time that the BOM claims that this preaching happened, which you can't, because all available evidence shows that it has no basis in reality whatsoever. Again, it's a fantasy. The fact that you happen to recognize this fantasy as scripture in your religion does not change the reality of who lived where when, the genetic lineage of the peoples of the Americas, and all the other things that do not line up with the BOM narrative at all.

I'm sorry, but your book is not and cannot be taken to be evidence for its own historicity. It is not history.

So using some common sense rules out Mars and Pluto. Common sense says that because there were Israelites in the Americas, it is not outrages that Jesus would visit them also. He did.

Common sense does not say that there were Israelites in the Americas, Peter. Mormonism does, and Mormonism is by no definition 'common sense'.
 
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Peter1000

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But you cannot look at the 'original' actual Hebrew. Our bibles are translated from 10th century copies, of copies, of copies, of copies........ The closest we can get is 300BC.
The originals were penned around 1400BC. 300BC is after the 800-400BC period when the humble Messiah/Jesus was being systematically eliminated from the Hebrew scriptures and who knows what they did to Isaiah.
 
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