Bonfire Night- should Catholics celebrate it?

[PassthePeace1]

I would hardly call Guy Fawkes a martyr, Catholic or otherwise. James I was not exactly a great king, and was rather ruthless in his treatment of Catholics- but Guy Fawkes was prepared to kill innocent people in order to convey his message. There's no Catholic, nor even Christian doctrine that permits killing innocents.

I don't think Quanta was implying that Fawkes and his conspirators were martyrs, but rather those Catholics that were innocent of the plot that suffered martyrdom in the backlash of Fawkes actions.

 

[Catherineanne]

We celebrate the death of many martyrs with great feasts, etc. St. Thomas Garnet, St. Nicholas Owen, Bl. Ralph Ashley, and Bl. Edward Oldcorne, among others, went to their heavenly reward as a direct result of that backlash--Garnet for refusing to reveal the confessions of the conspirators. Losses in this world are often victories for Christ.

There are martyrs on both sides from that very troubled time in history. I think it is important to remember that there was very great evil on both sides, and that neither can be particularly proud of our history in relation to the other.

Which is why the English Martyrs on both sides are commemorated together, as is only right, whenever they died.

However, Guy Fawkes is not one of them, and Bonfire Night is not a time to commemorate martyrs to our faith.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't think Quanta was implying that Fawkes and his conspirators were martyrs, but rather those Catholics that were innocent of the plot that suffered martyrdom in the backlash of Fawkes actions.

There were innocent people killed on both sides during the Tudor and Stuart dynasties, and indeed during the Civil War. Those were very violent times, with very strange ideas of how to purge 'heretics' of their beliefs.

Thank God we have moved on, somewhat.

 

[Rhamiel]

I would hardly call Guy Fawkes a martyr, Catholic or otherwise. James I was not exactly a great king, and was rather ruthless in his treatment of Catholics- but Guy Fawkes was prepared to kill innocent people in order to convey his message. There's no Catholic, nor even Christian doctrine that permits killing innocents.

he was not calling Fawkes a martyr, but pointing out that many good Catholics were martyred by the same regime that killed Fawkes
as for the killing of innocents, it is horrible but in all wars there is loss of life of innocent people, does this mean that we can never have any wars?
if you are a total pacifist then i can not really argue with you

There are martyrs on both sides from that very troubled time in history. I think it is important to remember that there was very great evil on both sides, and that neither can be particularly proud of our history in relation to the other.

Which is why the English Martyrs on both sides are commemorated together, as is only right, whenever they died.

However, Guy Fawkes is not one of them, and Bonfire Night is not a time to commemorate martyrs to our faith.

it is only right to commemorate them together? should we honor the Cathars who were killed too?

 

[Catherineanne]

it is only right to commemorate them together? should we honor the Cathars who were killed too?

I see no reason why not, particularly given my name. The Cathars were not evil people; quite the opposite, but it is hard to say the same for those who burned them.

Having a religious faith does not give any of us the right to go around killing those who do not share our views. If such people are otherwise innocent, then we need to repent our past sins, and commend their faith, even if their faith is not the same as ours.

When I commemorate the English martyrs, I commemorate those from all sides who died innocent of any crime, but simply because of their belief, and I think this is the normal Anglican view (no doubt someone will correct me, if I am mistaken). Ultimately each one of those people has laid down his or her life for our freedom of belief. We enter eternity because of our love for God and our fellow men, not because of our strict orthodoxy. By the latter criterion, few of us would qualify.

The alternative is to condone or even celebrate the murder of innocent people. As I said above, we have moved on from that position, somewhat.

And to return to the OP, anyone who thinks that celebrating the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot is to be deplored, look at what happens when such a plot succeeds. And see exactly why it is important to remember November 5. Not because we want to deplore Roman Catholicism. But because we want to deplore cold blooded murder, such as this, whoever perpetrates it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airey_Neave

Airey Neave was killed on 30 March 1979, when a car bomb fitted with a mercury tilt switch exploded under his Vauxhall Cavalier at 2.58pm as he drove out of the Palace of Westminster (ie Parliament) car park. Both of his legs were blown off and he died in hospital an hour after being freed from the wreckage. The Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), an Irish Republican organisation banned in the United Kingdom under anti-terrorism legislation claimed responsibility for the killing.

as for the killing of innocents, it is horrible but in all wars there is loss of life of innocent people, does this mean that we can never have any wars?
if you are a total pacifist then i can not really argue with you

Pacificm is a different subject, and probably needs a different thread, rather than confusing this one further. All I would say is that it is deplorable that any of us can simply shrug our shoulders, and say of innocent lives being lost, in effect; 'Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.' I think God is likely to take rather a stronger view on murder than this.

On this thread, however, we are talking about what Bonfire Night represents, which is attempted murder, equating in the case of the Gunpowder Plot to treason. And particularly in contrast with the death of innocent martyrs for our faith, by which I mean the Christian faith, not the Anglican or Roman Catholic one. And innocent meaning their only crime was that of belief. If any other crime is involved along the way, then clearly they cannot be Christian martyrs. We are all free to die for our faith. We are none of us sanctioned to murder for it.

 

[Catherineanne]

Remember remember the fifth of November
Gunpowder, treason and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...
​

​

Remember Remember the Fifth of November rhyme​

 

[98cwitr]

sure...because celebrating the execution of someone and then mocking it is just the "Christian" thing to do.

 

[Markus6]

sure...because celebrating the execution of someone and then mocking it is just the "Christian" thing to do.

He was a terrorist trying to commit a horrific act of terrorism. We can at least celebrate that it was foiled. I suspect some people celebrated when Saddam Hussein was executed and would almost certainly celebrate if Bin Ladin was caught and executed. I'm not sure how we're mocking...

On the other side of the coin the celebration was instituted by the government - kind of saying, "remember what happens when you cross us"!

My Father was a Maths teacher at St. Peter's School in York which is where Guy Fawkes was educated (he also went to St. Michael's Church in York where Guy Fawkes was baptised). He's says that they don't burn Guy's (effigies of Guy Fawkes that are thrown on a bonfire) because they are against burning old boys!

 

[Catherineanne]

sure...because celebrating the execution of someone and then mocking it is just the "Christian" thing to do.

No mockery; we are all perfectly serious about this. And the celebration is because a plot to kill the King and all of Parliament, not to mention visitors and employees of the House, was foiled.

Tell me, what would you do if a man were convicted of attempting to blow up your Senate House, with the President in it, in session? And if that plot were foiled, within hours of being achieved?

Guy Fawkes et al had a fair trial, was convicted and then executed according to the law of the land. Guy Fawkes in particular was caught red handed, in the cellar with the gunpowder, ready to light the fuse. He is not exactly an innocent victim.

The reason the plot was foiled (and it very nearly worked) is that there were too many conspiritors, some of whom had friends in the House, and warned them to stay away from Parliament that day. Those who were warned became suspicious and the premises were searched. Without that, the Gunpowder Plot would have worked.

We no longer have capital punishment here, because we are rather less barbaric than 400 years ago, so these days he would not be executed, but then he was. And given the law of the land at the time, it was right that he was. The method I certainly don't like, but I don't like any method of capital punishment; imo they are all equally barbaric, because capital punishment is itself barbaric.

It is not unChristian to celebrate Bonfire Night, any more than it would be unChristian to celebrate any foiled terrorist plot, but particularly one where treason is also involved. Neither is it anti Roman Catholic; far from it. Catholicism does not represent terrorism of any kind, and vice versa.

 

[Catherineanne]

My Father was a Maths teacher at St. Peter's School in York which is where Guy Fawkes was educated (he also went to St. Michael's Church in York where Guy Fawkes was baptised). He's says that they don't burn Guy's (effigies of Guy Fawkes that are thrown on a bonfire) because they are against burning old boys!

That is what I love about our country; the insane logic of it all.

Sadly, far fewer Guys are burned these days, because of the dangers of bonfires, and the 'Penny for the Guy' is almost never seen any more. So it is turning far more into fireworks only, in spite of being called Bonfire Night.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

He was a terrorist trying to commit a horrific act of terrorism. We can at least celebrate that it was foiled. I suspect some people celebrated when Saddam Hussein was executed and would almost certainly celebrate if Bin Ladin was caught and executed. I'm not sure how we're mocking...On the other side of the coin the celebration was instituted by the government - kind of saying, "remember what happens when you cross us"!

My Father was a Maths teacher at St. Peter's School in York which is where Guy Fawkes was educated (he also went to St. Michael's Church in York where Guy Fawkes was baptised). He's says that they don't burn Guy's (effigies of Guy Fawkes that are thrown on a bonfire) because they are against burning old boys!

Not being a historian I don't know about the checkered past of any but would really like to hear the expanded version of what you are trying to get across.

its pretty awesome when bits of scripture come together finally... and you wonder why you didn't see it before...only this week realised the Gabriel and Michael are the two witnesses of revelation [or rather manifest as them] , the solution to who the other two cherubim are at last... been asking about that one for years ... and all because of a largely unrelated question by another member...

 

[Catherineanne]

Not being a historian I don't know about the checkered past of any but would really like to hear the expanded version of what you are trying to get across.

Try this one.

The Gunpowder Plot Society

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Try this one.

The Gunpowder Plot Society

I was there at the failed attempt and am trying to wrestle to the mats with the other

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7511369-3/#post56057267

 

[Decanus]

Forgive me for bringing back such an old post, but since it's almost that time of year again, I thought i'd give my thoughts since this is something i've been pondering in light of the BBC's new drama "Gunpowder".

Firstly, let me just correct the idea that bonfire night no longer has a whiff of anti-catholic sentiment; this is false. Even today, in the town of Lewes, Sussex, alongside the effigy of Guido Fawkes there is also an effigy of the Pope that is paraded through the town and set alight. Are we supposed to believe that this is not blatant anti-catholicism?

My experience of bonfire night as an English Catholic is this:

When I was little, my family and I celebrated bonfire night (In fact we live 30-40 mins drive from some of the main locations that the plot was hatched). It was when we celebrated victory over terrorists who threatened our nations King and government, even many Catholics celebrated this. Now whilst I can say it is a good thing that the Houses of Parliament and the King were not blown to bits, most Catholics in England are completely ignorant of who the conspirators were, what they fought for and the social problems at that time.

We are rarely taught in schools of the absolutely horrific treatment of Catholics in this period. Sure, Protestants also suffered and that is to be regretted, however there are many more instances of Protestant martyrs being remembered than Catholic martyrs. Could the fact that the Church of England being the established religion of England, the fact that no Catholic can be monarch of the country and Anglican Bishops being members of our second house be a factor in this? Of course it is! It is the same in Irish Catholic communities. Protestants have "Remember remember the 5th of November" and those of us from Irish Catholic backgrounds know of "Oliver Cromwell is buried and dead, high ho buried and dead, they planted an apple tree over his head, high ho over his head". Communities are inside an echo chamber and only hear the things they want. England as a whole, in this instance, can be seen as an echo chamber of protestant interpretations of history.

Anyway, as I stated earlier, Catholics celebrating Bonfire night don't really understand what they're celebrating, my family sure didn't and neither did I until I grew up and actually took the time to see where it all comes from. Since finding out, I find it incredibly difficult to celebrate bonfire night, not that one can really escape the sound and site of fireworks everywhere. I have been asked this year to attend with friends, and I may go, but something inside tells me that i'm celebrating the death of people who felt so persecuted because of their beliefs that they resorted to radical measures. Surely we all would get to that point if we were living under that level of persecution?

To say that bonfire night is no longer anti-catholic is a cop out. The underlying message is victory over the "popish plot".

I applaud efforts to try and steer it away from anti-catholic sentiment, however I don't think that is actually possible. That would be like saying the Orange Order simply celebrate their culture and freedom of religion and that it's nothing to do with being anti-catholic, which any sane person would know is absolute nonsense.

So I may attend the celebrations this year, but I will treat it as a remembrance of all those who suffered under persecution. It's easy to brand the conspirators as evil murderers when we sit comfortably in our homes in a society that doesn't persecute us (at least not in the same way or severity), but had we been Catholics in England at that time, who knows where our sympathies would be with. Desperation and persecution leads people to do bad things and I think the vilification of the conspirators lacks any compassion or understanding of the times they lived in.

Just one last question, if we celebrate bonfire night purely because of a foiled plot against King and Parliament, why do we not celebrate the foiling of Wyatt's rebellion against Catholic Queen Mary I and all the other plots against her? Could it be because she is a Catholic? I think the answer is clear.

Again, apologies for the possibly unwelcome bump to this thread.

 

[Bob Crowley]

For what its worth, we used to have Guy Fawkes night when I was a kid, and that was in Queensland, Australia. Most of us wouldn't have had a clue what it was about, and all we cared about was letting off firecrackers and rockets.

No doubt it was due to the fact the British settled Australia and for some time the Anglican Church was the official church, with anti-Catholic bigotry enshrined in law and society.

Then it was banned, but that had nothing to do with religion. It was pure pragmatism - the crackers often used to start fires (Australia is a lot drier than England), and the crackers scared the hell out of dogs and other animals, and sometimes there were injuries - burns, hands damaged by exploding crackers etc. Plus kids will be kids - if there was a neighbour they didn't like, it wasn't unknown for a rocket to go hurtling towards somebody's open window.

We haven't had Guy Fawkes night for years. Nowadays the only time we see fireworks are New Year's Eve, and some festive occasions. They're official, with a couple of million dollars vaporising in the sky and set off by professionals. Of course there's always the occcasional loud bang around the neighbourhood when kids get hold of crackers by illegal means, but that's rare.

 

[Decanus]

For what its worth, we used to have Guy Fawkes night when I was a kid, and that was in Queensland, Australia. Most of us wouldn't have had a clue what it was about, and all we cared about was letting off firecrackers and rockets.

No doubt it was due to the fact the British settled Australia and for some time the Anglican Church was the official church, with anti-Catholic bigotry enshrined in law and society.

Then it was banned, but that had nothing to do with religion. It was pure pragmatism - the crackers often used to start fires (Australia is a lot drier than England), and the crackers scared the hell out of dogs and other animals, and sometimes there were injuries - burns, hands damaged by exploding crackers etc. Plus kids will be kids - if there was a neighbour they didn't like, it wasn't unknown for a rocket to go hurtling towards somebody's open window.

We haven't had Guy Fawkes night for years. Nowadays the only time we see fireworks are New Year's Eve, and some festive occasions. They're official, with a couple of million dollars vaporising in the sky and set off by professionals. Of course there's always the occcasional loud bang around the neighbourhood when kids get hold of crackers by illegal means, but that's rare.

Ahhhh interesting. I never knew that former colonies also celebrated it before I read this thread.

In reference to the Anglican Church also being the state church of Australia for a time, that just goes to show that there is clear anti-catholicism or anti-romanism still within the established Church of England and Guy Fawkes night is a product of that.

 

[Catherineanne]

Ahhhh interesting. I never knew that former colonies also celebrated it before I read this thread.

In reference to the Anglican Church also being the state church of Australia for a time, that just goes to show that there is clear anti-catholicism or anti-romanism still within the established Church of England and Guy Fawkes night is a product of that.

Nonsense.

Guy Fawkes et al attempted treason and were executed as a result. It is a calumny to associate their crime with modern Catholicism.

 

[Decanus]

Nonsense.

Guy Fawkes et al attempted treason and were executed as a result. It is a calumny to associate their crime with modern Catholicism.

You seem to leave out the harsh conditions Catholics were living under that drove the likes of Catesby and Fawkes et al to attempt treason.

As for anti Catholicism no longer existing, please explain the bonfire night in Lewes, Sussex where they also burn an effigy of the Pope every year...

Or perhaps the fact no Catholic can be head of state in the UK...

 

[Open Heart]

Guy Fawkes Night - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, so tomorrow is Bonfire Night, and here in the UK, everyone will go nuts. There will be fireworks, hotdogs and parties all the way through the night. Yet, given the history of this night, is it right for the five million Catholics in the UK to celebrate it? Keeping in mind that it commemorates the finding of a Catholic plot by an anti Catholic King, resulted in the deaths of Catholics and led to harsher laws against Catholics.

Discuss.

I'm an American, so I don't really have a right to say anything. After all, I don't understand the nuances of British culture.

But I am a Catholic. And I do understand the oppression of the Catholics under James and all that led up to the Gunpowder plot. I even just watched the BBC series about it (not that that's my only source about it).

I don't really know what you English do on the holiday. You say bonfires. Are these small bonfires? Or great big huge ones? My first reaction, to be really honest, is if they are small, is that if I were English, I'd put on a Guy Fawkes mask and carry around a machine gun size water gun, and see if I could put out a few of those bonfires. But again, I don't really know enough about the holiday to know what I'm talking about.