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Body of Christ (Church) vs. Israel

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Dpiiiius, Jan 3, 2013.

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  1. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

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    The gospels are not there to witness about the illegitimacy of the judges (for the judges were not illegitimate, even if they made a bad decision, they still were judges according to the law).

    The gospels are there to witness about the validity of Yeshua as Messiah as well as His death, burial and resurrection. There is nothing more foundational, essential, and central to the purposes.
     
  2. annier

    annier Guest

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    Who is bashing the Jewish priests judges for killing Christ? Why is that all you see? They disqualified themselves as judges ACCORDING TO MOSES LAW, when they judged Christ. Is that true or not? I personally believe this concerns their authority CONCERNING THE CHRIST, and THE GOOD NEWS IN THE CHRIST is the FOCAL POINT HERE. A corrupt generation, a DISQUALIFIED GENERATION, having PASSED ON, their judgment concerning Christ to their disciples, is the issue here.

    AMEN. That generation and their rulings upon Christ WERE NULL AND VOID ACCORDING TO GODS OWN LAW. There is no such thing concerning the teachers of the law PRIOR TO THIS. With the exception of the priests.
     
  3. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

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    First- Show the scripture from the Mosaic law which tells us about how to disqualify a judge.

    Second, you are pronouncing judgement against the entire generation of Jewish people/judges/leadership. Provide scripture to show that salvation was not available to them at that time, that Jesus did not die for their sins, and that absolutely none came to believe on Yeshua since they were a DISQUALIFIED GENERATION.

    Third, Since Yeshua voluntarily died for all of our sins, and no one could take His life, except He laid it down Himself, it was because of your sin, and mine, that He died. I can say, that it is my sin that caused Yeshua to die.
     
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Hey Zazal :)

    Was just thinking about ya, actually, the other day and wondering where you were at. To answer your question, I'm doing well - just busy with a number of things and seeing where the Lord would have me at.
    I can understand it from the aspect of having others still learn basics on what it means to follow the Lord - no different than what Paul noted in Romans 2 when saying that even the Gentiles who do not have the Law become a Law unto themselves/will be judged by the basic things that they built into them/revealed to them by the Lord. And many Jewish people around the world, although they'd never hear of Yeshua in their lifetimes, live out what he asked for when it comes to His commands -and many may say of them "They rejected Christ!!!" when it came to evangelism when in fact they rejected a form of Christianity that was false.....in the same way others like slaves in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade experienced a corrupt form of Christianity that sought to justify the system/have things done in the name of Christ which were not what Christ accepted (more shared here in #5 when discussing the differences between people being exposed to BIBLICAL Christianity and IMPERIALISTIC versions of Christianity, which others rejected without really rejecting Christ).

    In that sense, when they rejected what those Christians believed, they were not rejecting Christ - but false teachings done in His name...and I'd not be surprised if they died meeting Yeshua face to face and Him apologizing for what was done to them in His name. The same goes for Jewish groups who were harmed by those claiming to be followers of Christ and rejecting the portrayal of Christ they were exposed to. I think they'd make it.

    However, if a Jewish person has encountered a meeting with Yeshua as He was historically - and they stll reject Him/the need for salvation found in His Work in favor of trying to attain righteousness via Mosaic Covenant - then I'd think they are in direct violation of the very purpose God gave the Law to begin with...to point to Him (more shared here in #182 .

    Others saying that they'd be saved regardless are those who promote Dual Covenant Theology - and that's out of bounds on multiple levels. Much of it has been advocated before by others such as John Hagee with what he discussed called Dual Covenant Theology. And other Messianics have given it alot of serious addressment thankfully.

    ...

    I tend to side with Dr.Michael Brown's stance, which is focused on Conditional Repentance for Salvation and the issue of seeing Judaism as incomplete without the Messiah - the FULFILLMENT of all things, who will be the Hopes of His people (more shared here and here).







    The Real Kosher Jesus - Michael L. Brown, Ph.D. - Host, Dr. Freda Crews
    The Messianic Miracle #3: The Effect on Christianity Today

    I agree. Yeshua is and must always remain the focus - and doing so doesn't mean one must deman the Mosaic or Torah. It does mean, however, that one cannot exalt what happened previously MORE SO than what has been given for salvation/further development past where you could go before: Yeshua.

    I can see how one could certainly come to that conclusion. There did seem to be a greater focus on the Jews coming back into prominence during the Creation of Israeli State. ..although I'd not say it was universal concerning others focusing on the Mystery dynamic. And for many Jewish groups throughout history, completing wasn't just in the sense of saying a State would be formed. I have my own views on the issue - in line with other Jewish groups which differ from some of the views saying the "time of the Gentiles" was signaled by the creation of the Israeli State (more shared here in seemed #13 #15 #21 #22 #31 ,F#31 , #35 #37 #39 #43 #49 #51 54 #77 #325, #326, #327, #328 , #331 #335 #344 , #355 , #356 , #362 #369 , #370 , #371 , #372 , #375 , #380 #386#392 and #405 ). And truthfully, I'd probably be more so on the side of others like Martin Luther King - one who both supported Israel's right to protect itself as a nation and yet also vehemently against anything done which is oppressive to others in the name of the Israeli State. For MLK said things in disagreement with the Israeli State and did extensive workwith other Palestinian leaders who were involved in social protest in Israel like Joseph Raya - as seen in #13 and #46 ...even though he worked frequently with Jewish people. It's far too easy to forget/minimize what he noted directly when pointing out that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... (more shared here and here/here).

    But yes - sadly, the battles over others wishing to maintain Replacement Theology instead of seeing the ways that the Lord loves Israel/the Jewish people is a great pity...and thankfully, it's something which is being addressed more frequently at large within the Body of Christendom...as opposed to missing the Messiah in what He said - and taking Him at His word.
    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  5. annier

    annier Guest

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    Bribery, bias, and false testimony do not disqualify a judge? Do I really need to bring scripture in here to show God does not allow for such from his judges? Come on. how about any of the many verses which speak to "judging a just judgement" in the law of Moses?
    No, the above is a false assumption and a mischaracterization of my statements. Judaism speaks in the context of GENERATIONS of teachers/rulers.
    The zugot had a certain number of GENERATIONS assigned to them. Such also was the case with the tannaim, having 5 generations to it. The same is the context of my own statements, as well as that of scripture. Adding persons and things to mean something outside of that is wrong.
    John the baptist spoke of that GENERATION ( a select number of rulers, responsible for their authority in the law)

    Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    Mt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    Mt 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    Mt 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
    Mt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
    Mt 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
    Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    Mr 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
    Mr 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    This from Christs own mouth...... Yet , you are concerned about my posts??????

    Lu 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
    Amen, yes he did.
    Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
    1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2013
  6. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

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    All you need to do is provide scripture that says a judge is disqualified from being a judge, and what actions cause that disqualification.

    As far as Messiahs words, about the vipers, He asks how can they avoid damnation. It is the same way all people 'avoid damnation'. By believing on Yeshua. So, did any come to believe?

    And as far as 1 Cor 15:15-17, that is another topic. It is talking about the resurrection, and if Messiah was not raised again, then there is no salvation. But, if Messiah did not die for our sins, there is also no salvation. Salvation requires that Yeshua kept all of the laws from all previous covenants, died for the sins of the world being sinless Himself, was buried, and rose again.
     
  7. annier

    annier Guest

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    Here ya go quince. This should suffice. There are others, but really, this should do.
    Le 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
    Le 19:35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

    The vipers, if BELIEVED as making a JUST JUDGEMEMENT UPON JESUS THE CHRIST, cannot BELIEVE. There fore my statements stand. The gospels are inclusive of the fact that the Judges were either corrupt, as the Gospels record, or they do not believe the Gospels concerning their judgment.

    Again, of the Gospels are believed to be false concerning the judgment of Christ, HE IS NOT RAISED EITHER. It is very simple.

    What I really cannot understand quince, with all due respect. How is it that all judaism (and I mean all, Orthodox, to mj, to one law etc.) accept that the priesthood in losing it's legitimacy lost it's authority to its office as cheif justices.
    But it becomes suspect to point out that the judges in that generation had lost theirs in corruption as well.

    Why ok for one body of HOLY GOVERNMENT ( a higher holiness at that), but not ok for a lesser holy body of government? I just do not understand this attitude. This has come as surprise to me. I did not expect this from you, because it is a very accepted thing concerning the very priesthood itself. So yeah, I am very surprised that it is so objectionable to have the same standard apply to the judges.
     
  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Yeshua's the ONLY hope :)
     
  9. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the judges were to judge righteously, as are we. But in the Mosaic law, does it say a judge is disqualified for not judging righteously? Where is the scripture which outlines this? I don't see where the law says a judge is removed for making an unrighteous judgement.

    Yes, the scripture always says everyone is to do what is righteous, not just the judges. But, for certain unrighteous, sinful acts, there are consequences listed in the Mosaic law. There is no law which says a judge is automatically or immediately removed/disqualified for making an unrighteous ruling.
     
  10. Yahu

    Yahu Jezebel's bain

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    Isn't Isreal just a subset of the Hebrew nation? The 70 nations were divided among the sons/grandsons of Noah.

    Didn't the northern tribes assimilate into the nations? Many members of the 'whole house of Israel' are gentiles.
     
  11. annier

    annier Guest

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    Ex 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

    How is it men can remain judges that are found to not meet the requirement to be a judge? Come on Quince??????????????? Did they just leave them in their office anyway? False testimony disqualifies a witness.
    But you expect us to believe that Torah does not disqualify a judge that bribes others to give false testimony, or judges wrongly on purpose? WOW.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2013
  12. annier

    annier Guest

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    It is the same difference Quince. You cannot have Christ be innocent of the Charges and the gospel testimony be true, without also understanding the Judges which condemned him were men which were unjust judges.
    Just as Jesus said to them, WHAT"S THE DIFFERENCE? If he said thy sins are forgiven thee, or rise up and walk.

    the same goes here.
     
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Do not pervert justice do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. Leviticus 19:15

    I charged your judges at that time: Hear the disputes between your brothers and judge fairly, whether the case is between brother Israelites or between one of them and an alien. Do not show partiality in judging hear both small and great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for judgment belongs to God. Bring me any case too hard for you, and I will hear it. Deuteronomy 1:16-17

    Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the Lord your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live and possess the land the Lord your God is giving you. Deuteronomy 16:18-20

    Consider carefully what you do, because you are not judging for man, but for the Lord, who is with you whenever you give a verdict. Now let the fear of the Lord be upon you. Judge carefully, for with the Lord our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery. 2 Chronicles 19:6-7

    Do you rulers indeed speak justly? Do you judge uprightly among men? No, in your heart you devise injustice, and your hands mete out violence on the earth. Even from birth the wicked go astray from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. Psalm 58:1-3


    Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly defend the rights of the poor and needy. Proverbs 31:8-9


    Your hands are full of blood wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. Isaiah 1:15-17



    Your rulers are rebels, companions of thieves they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless the widow's case does not come before them. Isaiah 1:23

    Among my people are wicked men who lie in wait like men who snare birds and like those who set traps to catch men. Like cages full of birds, their houses are full of deceit they have become rich and powerful and have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor. Jeremiah 5:26-28

    The leaders judge for a bribe, priests teach for a price, and prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean upon the Lord and say, " Is not the Lord among us? No disaster will come upon us." Micah 3:11

    Both hands are skilled in doing evil the ruler demands gifts, the judge accepts bribes, the powerful dictate what they desire--they all conspire together. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright worse than a thorn hedge. Micah 7:3-4


    Woe to the city of oppressors, rebellious and defiled! She obeys no one, she accepts no correction. She does not trust in the Lord, she does not draw near to her God. Her officials are roaring lions, her rulers are evening wolves, who leave nothing for the morning . . . the unrighteous know no shame. Zephaniah 3:1-5


    Isaiah 1:21-26 is especially interesting because it describes the harlotry principle working within the social justice system. Judges were selling themselves out through accepting bribes or for personal advantage in some other area of life, and counselors—lawyers—were giving bad advice to tip the scales of "justice" favorably for their careers. Under such corruption, justice in Israel was difficult to find, so difficult that "the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time" (Amos 5:13).

    Queen Jezebel --the most WICKED woman in Scripture ( 1 Kings 16:30-32, 1 Kings 18:3-5, 1 Kings 19:1-3 , 1 Kings 21:24-26, 2 Kings 9:6-11, 2 Kings 9:30-37, Revelation 2:19-21, etc) did that, if you recall, when she sought to use the Law in gaining the vineyard of Naboth in I Kings 21. She devised a scheme that appeared legal to get the land for her husband.

    Two witnesses were required to establish guilt, and the punishment for blasphemy was death by stoning (Acts 6:11, Exodus 22:28, Leviticus 24:15-16). In that instance, she was like those who twist the law and legal procedures to get what they want.....being more sophisticated in how they go about it, but still being guilty of the same sins.

    Jezebel used the Law craftily to make it seems as if the man was guilty of a crime he didn't commit----and then, when the smoke cleared, she took it while maintaining the public image that her husband was innocent. That was directly in violation of what the WORD ALReady said on how to do justice and not bearing false testimony against your neighbor since it could endanger another's life( Exodus 20:15-17 , Exodus 22:28, Deuteronomy 5:19-21 , Deuteronomy 19:17-19 , Proverbs 6:18-20, Proverbs 12:17, Proverbs 14:5, Proverbs 14:25, Proverbs 19:5 , Proverbs 19:9, Proverbs 21:28, Proverbs 25:17-19 . Matthew 19:17-19 , Leviticus 24:15-16, Matthew 26:59, Acts 6:11).

    The scriptures make clear that anyone bringing a false witness against another out of malicious intent and not being in line with all procedures of the Law was to be treated as they desired others to be.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    One thing that came to my mind was the example of Paul when he saw injustice in the courts - something the Lord took seriously - and yet when he called it out, he realized he still had to have honor for the office:
    Acts 23
    Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, “My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.” 2 At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. 3 Then Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!”

    4 Those who were standing near Paul said, “You dare to insult God’s high priest?”

    5 Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’[a
     
  15. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

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    It is simply that the judges were wrong. That does not disqualify them as judges. Since people are not perfect, everyone is wrong at times.

    From the viewpoint of Judaism, that God would come in human flesh and live as a man is almost inconceivable. So, with that basic assumption, any man who claimed to be God, is false. Today, if Barack Obama, or Benjamin Netanyahu claimed to be God in human flesh, we would all be crying that they are of satan, deceived and deceivers. Maybe even the anti-christ.
    The truth is, either Jesus was Who He said He was, or if He wasn't, He was a very very dangerous man. That is what the judges needed to judge.


    Were the judges wrong? Absolutely. The Tenakh does not come out and say the Messiah would be God in the flesh, but there are hints to that idea.

    But, in here is the basics, Jesus said that no one could take His life. The judges, while ruling him guilty, could not take Yeshua's life, unless Yeshua permitted it. Since the plan was for Yeshua to be crucified since the foundation of the world, it has always been the plan that the people who played the role in His crucifixion (judges, Roman soldiers, Roman rulers, etc) were to do that, as it was a part of Gods plan.

    So, unless the individual judges later repented and came to believe on Yeshua, they were lost and facing the judgement of God. They are guilty of unbelief, just as everyone who rejects that Yeshua is Messiah. But, we do not know if any came to believe or not, in which case, they are not just forgiven, but are now saints, and our brothers in the Lord.
     
  16. annier

    annier Guest

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    Yes, and I am trying to find in Josephus where it talks about this. Judges which are found to not "QUALIFY", I am sure do not maintain their office. They are just as guilty as a false witness. Heck, the rulers were the witnesses against him. It was not juist Christ himself, John the baptist and his testimony of Christ was ignored by the same as well.
     
  17. annier

    annier Guest

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    Yes, and I am trying to find in Josephus where it talks about this. Judges which are found to not "QUALIFY", I am sure do not maintain their office. They are just as guilty as a false witness. Heck, the rulers were the witnesses against him. It was not juist Christ himself, John the baptist and his testimony of Christ was ignored by the same as well.
     
  18. macher

    macher Active Member

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    Yeshua said to obey those that sit in Moses Seat. Whether they were crooked or not is irrelevant. Yeshua gave them authority at the time.
     
  19. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

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    While it is clear for not just the judges, but for Kings, and all of the people, including Christians and Messianics, we are to judge righteously. We are all admonished to do this. But the truth is, there is no Mosaic law which disqualifies a judge from their office. And because of the office, the judges were basically to be obeyed.

    While there is no method for disqualifying a person from holding the office of judge (due to bad judgements), since the judges are appointed, ideally, a new judge would be appointed in their place once a judge if found to be consistently corrupt and make consistently unrighteous judgements.

    So, the gospels could not show the judges as disqualified as there is no such method of disqualification. The purpose of the gospels is as a legal witness (per the Mosaic law and for future witness to all people) to show Yeshua is the Messiah.
     
  20. annier

    annier Guest

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    That was the high priest, which Judaism says lost their authority because of "CORRUPTION". They just won't allow that same standard with the judges EASY. Which he commanded Paul to be slapped, as High priest. Paul apologized for speaking to him in in that manner. Paul admitted he would not have done so, IF HE HAD KNOWN HE WAS THE HIGH PRIEST. Would it have been unlawful for the high priest to command him to be slapped? Considering what the law says concerning the authrity of the high priests in deciding cases, Paul pretty much declared himself innocent before the high priest. Try doing that before a judge in modern courtroom today. The judge more than likely is going to tell you, to sit down and bring forth your testimony, and be cross examined, AND THE COURT WILL DECIDE YOUR STANDING.
     
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