Body of Christ (Church) vs. Israel

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Zeek

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Been following the thread and reading over things several times and will continue to mull some aspects over, especially when they challenge some of the things I have loosely taken for granted.

Hi EasyG, hope you're keeping well. You said:-

So, Israel’s way to God is through the new covenant rather than the Mosaic covenant, a point made emphatically clear with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, a destruction that has lasted to this day.

My contention has always been that although the Mosaic covenant has been ratified through the appearance of Messiah...those Jews today who might not look at the New Covenant can still find Messiah through the Old Covenant, because above all that was the central purpose of the Covenant, namely to lead them to Yeshua.

On top of that I have believed that today no Jew can keep Torah unless He has come to recognize Messiah...because the substance of Torah is not the Temple nor the priesthood...but Messiah Himself, the Word made flesh....therefore any Jewish person who does not recognize Yeshua, but think he is keeping Torah through various observances...even the strictest of observances, is actually breaking Torah because Torah without Messiah is not Torah...it is Judaism based on religious teaching.

I can't help equating the 'times of the Gentiles' as nearing their completing on the re-emergence of the physical land of Israel in which the physical descendants of Abraham are gathering. It is interesting how until 1948 the overall understanding/doctrines of the Body, were somewhat shrouded in mystery regarding the Jews until the nation of Israel 'popped' up again, and caused a revised theology in many quarters.

Regarding Replacement Theology, IMO it has been as though 'scales' have been placed on the eyes of much of the Body so that they cannot comprehend something of the plans and purposes of G-d for His people, and even when G-d has caused Israel to re-emerge as probably the greatest prophetic sign-post to the Body in history...rather than adjust our thinking and our theology, much has been done to play down its significance, and maintain an unenlightened man-made perspective It is almost comparative to many of the Jewish people by-passing their Messiah and continuing to look for His appearing.

I liked that last bit you wrote Qnts2 about, 'Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'...it plays out very much as I have pictured it.
 
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Qnts2

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Been following the thread and reading over things several times and will continue to mull some aspects over, especially when they challenge some of the things I have loosely taken for granted.



My contention has always been that although the Mosaic covenant has been ratified through the appearance of Messiah...those Jews today who might not look at the New Covenant can still find Messiah through the Old Covenant, because above all that was the central purpose of the Covenant, namely to lead them to Yeshua.

On top of that I have believed that today no Jew can keep Torah unless He has come to recognize Messiah...because the substance of Torah is not the Temple nor the priesthood...but Messiah Himself, the Word made flesh....therefore any Jewish person who does not recognize Yeshua, but think he is keeping Torah through various observances...even the strictest of observances, is actually breaking Torah because Torah without Messiah is not Torah...it is Judaism based on religious teaching.

I can't help equating the 'times of the Gentiles' as nearing their completing on the re-emergence of the physical land of Israel in which the physical descendants of Abraham are gathering. It is interesting how until 1948 the overall understanding/doctrines of the Body, were somewhat shrouded in mystery regarding the Jews until the nation of Israel 'popped' up again, and caused a revised theology in many quarters.

Regarding Replacement Theology, IMO it has been as though 'scales' have been placed on the eyes of much of the Body so that they cannot comprehend something of the plans and purposes of G-d for His people, and even when G-d has caused Israel to re-emerge as probably the greatest prophetic sign-post to the Body in history...rather than adjust our thinking and our theology, much has been done to play down its significance, and maintain an unenlightened man-made perspective It is almost comparative to many of the Jewish people by-passing their Messiah and continuing to look for His appearing.

I liked that last bit you wrote Qnts2 about, 'Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'...it plays out very much as I have pictured it.

Just for my own clarity, I looked up ratify.

Mirriam Webster

Ratify

: to approve and sanction formally : confirm <ratify a treaty>

In the sense of the Mosaic covenant, there are differing places it can be said to be ratified.

At Mt. Sinai, God gave the requirements of the covenant to Moses, who repeated it to the Jewish people. The Jewish people agreed to it by saying they would do all that it said. So, it was 'approved' at that time. However, there were some stipulations within the covenant, that most of the commands could not be practiced until they Jewish people entered the promised land, so the covenant was not full in effect until they entered the promised land.

When the Jewish people accepted the Mosaic covenant, they did so for all Jewish people for all generations. So, in my view, as long as there are Jewish people who are obligated to the Mosaic covenant, the Mosaic covenant is still in force.

After the Temple was destroyed, and the people were scattered, the Rabbis met in a place called Yavneh/Jamnia, to discuss how to practice Judaism, practicing the Mosaic covenant as a community, in diaspora (outside of the land, without the Temple).

I agree, the Mosaic covenant can not really be kept, outside of Israel and without the Temple and Priesthood. Since we said that we would do all that God said, that puts the requirement for the Mosaic covenant as a unit, to be followed. You can't pick pieces and be following the Mosaic covenant.

In my view, one of the disadvantages of what occurred at Yavneh, is that a 'normalized' Judaism was made which was outside of the land. Because this diaspora Judaism became the norm, the awareness that Judaism is not complete is lost.

Yeshua established the New Covenant, and I like to think of it as at a stage similar to the Mosaic covenant, before they entered the land. We have the New Covenant, but it is not yet fully in place because one requirement is not yet there. Jesus is not reigning from Jerusalem.

Ok, my last comment. The Mosaic covenant and entire Tenakh, speaks of a Messiah. So, it establishes that there will be the Messiah, and gives a lot of clues to recognize Him when He arrives. It does point to the Messiah, in many different ways. Literally and alleghorically. But, a point of Jewish law. To establish something as true, there must be 2 or three witnesses. And then a court or Priest can make decision in Judaism. So, while the Tenakh establishes the reality that there is to be The Messiah, and provides pointers, we do not know who He is, without the witnesses. I believe the Gospels are the required witnesses to establish Yeshua is The Messiah prophesied in the Tenakh. As well as believers who are to witness, as in a court of law, about Yeshua, so that other people might judge.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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the ultimate curse on Israel is when the children of Israel are expelled from the land. .
From what I read, being expelled was but one part of the curse (and a significant part). And there were numerous things that were a negative - the greatest being they would lose the Prescence/Blessing of God:
Exodus 33
Then the Lord said to Moses, &#8220;Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, &#8216;I will give it to your descendants.&#8217; 2 I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.&#8221;

4 When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. 5 For the Lord had said to Moses, &#8220;Tell the Israelites, &#8216;You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.&#8217;&#8221; 6 So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.



The Tent of Meeting


7 Now Moses used to take a tent and pitch it outside the camp some distance away, calling it the &#8220;tent of meeting.&#8221; Anyone inquiring of the Lord would go to the tent of meeting outside the camp. 8 And whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose and stood at the entrances to their tents, watching Moses until he entered the tent. 9 As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the Lord spoke with Moses. 10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to his tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.


Moses and the Glory of the Lord

12 Moses said to the Lord, &#8220;You have been telling me, &#8216;Lead these people,&#8217; but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, &#8216;I know you by name and you have found favor with me.&#8217; 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.&#8221;

14 The Lord replied, &#8220;My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.&#8221;15 Then Moses said to him, &#8220;If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?&#8221;


Ezekiel 10:11
Then the glory of the Lord departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim. 19 While I watched, the cherubim spread their wings and rose from the ground, and as they went, the wheels went with them. They stopped at the entrance to the east gate of the Lord&#8217;s house, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them.


Deuteronomy 28:20
The Lord will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The Lord will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the Lord your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.


Curses for Disobedience

15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.
36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating.
The Lord warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: &#8220;Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your fathers to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets.&#8221; 14 But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the Lord their God. 15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the Lord had ordered them, &#8220;Do not do as they do,&#8221; and they did the things the Lord had forbidden them to do.

16 They forsook all the commands of the Lord their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal. 17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in[c] the fire. They practiced divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

18 So the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them from his presence. Only the tribe of Judah was left, 19 and even Judah did not keep the commands of the Lord their God. They followed the practices Israel had introduced. 20 Therefore the Lord rejected all the people of Israel; he afflicted them and gave them into the hands of plunderers, until he thrust them from his presence.21 When he tore Israel away from the house of David, they made Jeroboam son of Nebat their king. Jeroboam enticed Israel away from following the Lord and caused them to commit a great sin. 22 The Israelites persisted in all the sins of Jeroboam and did not turn away from them 23 until the Lord removed them from his presence, as he had warned through all his servants the prophets.
2 Chronicles 7:19-21 2 Chronicles 7
&#8220;But if you[a] turn away and forsake the decrees and commands I have given you[b] and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 20 then I will uproot Israel from my land, which I have given them, and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. I will make it a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. 21 And though this temple is now so imposing, all who pass by will be appalled and say, &#8216;Why has the Lord done such a thing to this land and to this temple?&#8217; 22 People will answer, &#8216;Because they have forsaken the Lord, the God of their fathers, who brought them out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them&#8212;that is why he brought all this disaster on them.&#8217;&#8221;
Hosea 9:16-17 / Hosea 9


Ephraim is blighted,
their root is withered,
they yield no fruit.
Even if they bear children,
I will slay their cherished offspring.&#8221;

17My God will reject them
because they have not obeyed him;they will be wanderers among the nations.


 
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Gxg (G²)

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Originally Posted by Qnts2
God recognizes the faith of individuals, but deals with the children of Israel as a unit. So when Israel was cursed by being defeated and captured by the enemies, it is not just unfaithful children of Israel who are removed from the land but all of Israel, faithful and unfaithful alike. Daniel was faithful, but was a member of the people who were scattered from the land.
Indeed - as that's a theme within scripture when it comes to noting how even the righteous, though they may be righteous, can end up suffering because of the wrongs done by the same people. The people of Israel experienced this with David when it came to the Counting of the Census /God punishing all of Israel in 2 Samuel 24 /1 Chronicles 21 - and earlier than that, there was the example of the Famine in 2 Samuel 21 when a curse came on the entire land because of an Oath made in Joshua 9 which Saul had broken earlier. The same thing was also seen in Joshua 7:1 with Achan's sin which caused the entire camp to suffer massive defeat - and it is consistent throughout the entire Word of God. That's not surprising, seeing that the context of Scripture was in Eastern Culture - and just like today, Eastern cultures are a Collective culture of Honor and Shame (more shared here, here, and here). If one experiences honor or shame, it flows down into the Household of their entire family/legacy - and it is not as individualistic as the West.

This is behind the reasons why others in the OT often gave collective prayers even though they were righteous themselves. Daniel is an excellent example of this concept - as in Daniel 9:1 he is giving a prayer of Repentance for the entire nation - speaking as if he himself did not keep the Covenant....even though as an eunuch/exile in Babylon did AMAZING in the Empire and the Lord continually blessed His work to the point where he consistently advanced and was highly revered for his walk with the Lord. And His development in Babylon was something that the Lord used to develop Him further than ever before. It is a means of intercession whereby he identifies with the nation and stands in the gap - very much akin to what Christ did in choosing to be baptized/live life as a man (as shared before in #76 / #503 ). Be it with Daniel 9 or Ezra in Ezra 9-10 or Nehemiah 8-9 and Moses in Exodus 32-33 & Numbers 14, etc) did when it came to identifying with the sins of their nations even though they themselves never sinned, corporate identity is a big deal.

Nehemiah understood that Israel had been taken into captivity because of their sins. He prayed to God and said:
"I pray, Lord God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments, please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I prayer before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father's house and I have sinned.(Nehemiah 1:5-7)

Due to his intercession, Nehemiah received favor with the king and was sent back to rebuild Jerusalem as governor. After Jerusalem's walls were repaired and gates built, Nehemiah and Ezra, who had also been confessing Israel's sins (Ezra 9:5-15), both witnessed God's Spirit bringing conviction and repentance to the people following the public reading of God's word in chapters 8 and 9. God honored their obedience with a spiritual revival.

This did not always happen like that. And there are, of course, times where the Lord made clear He honored/valued the individual to the point of preserving them - but that did not equate to them escaping feeling the consequences of their forebearers...much like someone who chose not to do drugs/was righteous even though their mother or father was addicted to cocaine and ended up bringing the household into dire poverty - the consequences will still be felt by the children. Those sharing in the sins of the parents have no room to say "But it wasn't my fault" - just as it was in Ezekiel 18:8 (during the exile) when the Children of Israel were blaming their parents for their situation/using God's word as a means of saying He punished them for the sins of their father (as in Exodus 20:4-6 /Exodus 34:6-8 /Numbers 14:17-19 /Deuteronomy 5:8-10 - and the Lord had to correct that by saying only those who choose sin shall die.

King Jeroboam experienced that in the life of his son - for after Judgement was declared on him for his apostasy/taking all of Israel into the fast track with it, the Lord told him that the only one in His entire household to be spared was his sick son - for the Lord only found good in that boy while all others in the home were corrupt ( 1 Kings 14:12-14/ )

Others such as Josiah are a good case study on this - as the Lord had been provoked for generations by Israel - and it was too the point of no return as far as He was concerned when it came to Judgement. His grand-father, Manesseh, pushed things over the cliff (so to speak) in 2 Chronicles 33 - yet he repented and it moved the Lord to the point of choosing to spare him even after he was taken prisoner. And yet none of his actions to change the damage he allowed were enough to change things. Josiah went fully after the Lord ( 2 Kings 23:24-26 ) - and did much in the way of reform. Nonetheless, it was not going to change God's mind on how to address the nation:
2 Kings 23:13
25 Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the Lord as he did—with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.

26 Nevertheless, the Lord did not turn away from the heat of his fierce anger, which burned against Judah because of all that Manasseh had done to provoke him to anger.27 So the Lord said, “I will remove Judah also from my presence as I removed Israel, and I will reject Jerusalem, the city I chose, and this temple, about which I said, ‘There shall my Name be.’
2 Chronicles 34:22
25Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all that their hands have made,[e] my anger will be poured out on this place and will not be quenched.’ 26 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 27 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before God when you heard what he spoke against this place and its people, and because you humbled yourself before me and tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the Lord. 28 Now I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place and on those who live here.’”
In the words of another "It is difficult for Americans to understand our corporate accountability before God, because we are culturally very independent and individualistic people. In the scriptures we witness the sin of an individual affecting future generations in a family (2 Ki 5:26-27) and also affecting a nation (Jos 22:20). In many respects, we are our brother's keeper. (Gen 4:9) God considers us accountable for how we feel about others, and how we treat and relate to them. Our sins affect others and their sins affect us."
Right now, with the nation of Israel's rejection of Yeshua, salvation has come to the Gentiles, so for salvation, God is dealing with individuals for the promise of eternal salvation. That does not mean that God does not still work with Israel as a nation.
I would add - in addition to that - the fact that He still works with Israel as it concerns the Remnant and actively taking others into it who choose to serve him - in light of how many Ethnic Israelites/Hebrews have been turning in faith to Yeshua just as the Gentiles have ....with the Remnant of Israel being built up even though it does not agree with Israel as a Nation (in its state of rejecting God. Both are deemed Israel - but the Remnant will be the one who leads the way in the end - and nation wise, it is because of the Remnant that the Nation of Israel will be worked with/redeemed.

As you note, in the next post, scripture says all Israel will be saved. Again, a working of God on the nation of Israel.

How will this be done?

Well, going back to the Tenakh, the judges and priests were to set the manner in which the law would be done. When the Messiah arrives, the Priests were to greet the Messiah, who was to enter the eastern gate with the Messianic greeting of 'blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. At that point, all of Israel was to welcome the Messiah and receive Him as the Messiah.

Yet, we know that when Yeshua entered the eastern gate, the Jewish people were shouting the Messianic greeting and the Pharisees (who were judges), were attempting to silence the people. Yeshua went up to the Temple, and the priests, rather then greeting Him as the Messiah, challenged Him, trying to trip Yeshua up with questions. This is probably the saddest day in Jewish history, as the Priests and judges had rejected Yeshua rather then giving Him the Messianic greeting, so Israel did not nationally accept Yeshua as Messiah at that time. That there was not national acceptance, that did not stop individuals from recognizing Jesus.

In response, Yeshua tells the leadership:

Matthew 23:
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


So, what is this saying? That sometime in the future, the leadership of Israel will see the Lord triumphantly step down on the Mt of Olives and follow the winding road to enter the eastern gate, and at that time the leadership will recognize Him for Who He is and give Him the Messianic greeting 'Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. At that time, all of Israel who are alive, will receive Yeshua as Messiah and Lord. At that time will be a national salvation of Israel, when all living will be saved. So, at that time, there will be children of Israel who are unsaved, who will become saved
Can definately see that occuring in the manner you described and thanks for sharing. That scenario can somewhat be more akin to recognizing futility - as in all realizing He is the King (whether they wish it or not) and seeing it as better to submit to Him than to resist :)
 
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Yeshua went up to the Temple, and the priests, rather then greeting Him as the Messiah, challenged Him, trying to trip Yeshua up with questions. This is probably the saddest day in Jewish history, as the Priests and judges had rejected Yeshua rather then giving Him the Messianic greeting, so Israel did not nationally accept Yeshua as Messiah at that time. That there was not national acceptance, that did not stop individuals from recognizing Jesus.

In response, Yeshua tells the leadership:

Matthew 23:
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
Matthew 23:39
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord


Luke 19:42-44Luke 19
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Luke 13:33-35

Jesus’ Sorrow for Jerusalem


31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.” 32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’ 33 In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!


34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[a
 
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Just for my own clarity, I looked up ratify.

Mirriam Webster

Ratify

: to approve and sanction formally :In the sense of the Mosaic covenant, there are differing places it can be said to be ratified.

At Mt. Sinai, God gave the requirements of the covenant to Moses, who repeated it to the Jewish people. The Jewish people agreed to it by saying they would do all that it said. So, it was 'approved' at that time. However, there were some stipulations within the covenant, that most of the commands could not be practiced until they Jewish people entered the promised land, so the covenant was not full in effect until they entered the promised land.

When the Jewish people accepted the Mosaic covenant, they did so for all Jewish people for all generations. So, in my view, as long as there are Jewish people who are obligated to the Mosaic covenant, the Mosaic covenant is still in force.

After the Temple was destroyed, and the people were scattered, the Rabbis met in a place called Yavneh/Jamnia, to discuss how to practice Judaism, practicing the Mosaic covenant as a community, in diaspora (outside of the land, without the Temple).

I agree, the Mosaic covenant can not really be kept, outside of Israel and without the Temple and Priesthood. Since we said that we would do all that God said, that puts the requirement for the Mosaic covenant as a unit, to be followed. You can't pick pieces and be following the Mosaic covenant.

In my view, one of the disadvantages of what occurred at Yavneh, is that a 'normalized' Judaism was made which was outside of the land. Because this diaspora Judaism became the norm, the awareness that Judaism is not complete is lost.

Yeshua established the New Covenant, and I like to think of it as at a stage similar to the Mosaic covenant, before they entered the land. We have the New Covenant, but it is not yet fully in place because one requirement is not yet there. Jesus is not reigning from Jerusalem.

Ok, my last comment. The Mosaic covenant and entire Tenakh, speaks of a Messiah. So, it establishes that there will be the Messiah, and gives a lot of clues to recognize Him when He arrives. It does point to the Messiah, in many different ways. Literally and alleghorically. But, a point of Jewish law. To establish something as true, there must be 2 or three witnesses. And then a court or Priest can make decision in Judaism. So, while the Tenakh establishes the reality that there is to be The Messiah, and provides pointers, we do not know who He is, without the witnesses. I believe the Gospels are the required witnesses to establish Yeshua is The Messiah prophesied in the Tenakh. As well as believers who are to witness, as in a court of law, about Yeshua, so that other people might judge.
I believe the gospels are also a witness to the illigitimacy of the Judges. The corruption of the priesthood could be discerned by Genealogy. But the Judges were installed based upon their moral character. The gospel also serves to display the corruption of the body of judges, nullifying that courts decisions for BELIEVERS. It is only those which believe the gospels that are loosed from their decisions, as they have a witness to their corruption. Those not believing the gospel have not been loosed from it. The priesthood losing it's power by corruption, is no different than the Judges losing the power of their office through corruption. It is just that the judges were installed by a standard which was not as easily discernable than that of the priests. They outwardly appeared righteous to men. Therefore the gospels provide for us a sure witness of their corruption. And their judgments being lawfully null and void for us despite the entire body, both priests and judges deciding against Jesus.
 
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visionary

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I believe the gospels are also a witness to the illigitimacy of the Judges. The corruption of the priesthood could be discerned by Genealogy. But the Judges were installed based upon their moral character. The gospel also serves to display the corruption of the body of judges, nullifying that courts decisions for BELIEVERS. It is only those which believe the gospels that are loosed from their decisions, as they have a witness to their corruption. Those not believing the gospel have not been loosed from it. The priesthood losing it's power by corruption, is no different than the Judges losing the power of their office through corruption. It is just that the judges were installed by a standard which was not as easily discernable than that of the priests. They outwardly appeared righteous to men. Therefore the gospels provide for us a sure witness of their corruption. And their judgments being lawfully null and void for us despite the entire body, both priests and judges deciding against Jesus.
Does that mean Obama is null and void in representing the USA?
 
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annier

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Does that mean Obama is null and void in representing the USA?
.i am not understanding the relationship to the president of this nation, to the law in establishing judges in the nation of Israel? Do you have anything to comment regarding the Gospels being a witness to the corruption of the judges of Christ? It is not enough to know what the gospels record concerning this body. It is only by believing the gospels that one is loosed from their decision. The bribery of witnesses etc, is all recorded there for us to accept as true or not. binding or loosing from it. Faith or not.
 
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visionary

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.i am not understanding the relationship to the president of this nation, to the law in establishing judges in the nation of Israel? Do you have anything to comment regarding the Gospels being a witness to the corruption of the judges of Christ? It is not enough to know what the gospels record concerning this body. It is only by believing the gospels that one is loosed from their decision. The bribery of witnesses etc, is all recorded there for us to accept as true or not. binding or loosing from it. Faith or not.
It was the disconnect in your post that I was trying to illustrate using Obama as an example. Obama establishes which judges [one at a time until majority vote is reached]shall rule/interpret our law in this nation. I think a better question would be no so much a witness, since that is just a background set up of the scene, in which our Lord's life and death was played out, but rather the gospel witnessing to even in the midst of absolute corruption, His Will be done.:thumbsup:.
 
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annier

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It was the disconnect in your post that I was trying to illustrate using Obama as an example.
Disconnect? Disconnect to what? I have said, the gospels are more than just a witness to Christ. Meaning more broad and wide sweeping than what we usually associate it to. I connected the gospels to the standards of the law of Moses. While it is acknowledged that the priesthood was corrupt in those days, it usually is not equally acknowleged that so too were the judges.
Obama establishes which judges [one at a time until majority vote is reached]shall rule/interpret our law in this nation. I think a better question would be no so much a witness, since that is just a background set up of the scene, in which our Lord's life and death was played out, but rather the gospel witnessing to even in the midst of absolute corruption, His Will be done.:thumbsup:.
Obama, and that connection still is a puzzle to me. However, yes I would agree that the Gospel witnesses in the midst of corruption to those of FAITH. I disconnected nothing from that at all. Rather did connect it :). To both belivers and unbelievers. After all it is the decisions made in the Gospels which determine what it is a witness to. Either it is a witness to a false Messiah, or a true Messiah. Faith or not.
 
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pat34lee

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Disconnect? Disconnect to what? I have said, the gospels are more than just a witness to Christ. Meaning more broad and wide sweeping than what we usually associate it to. I connected the gospels to the standards of the law of Moses. While it is acknowledged that the priesthood was corrupt in those days, it usually is not equally acknowleged that so too were the judges.

Obama, and that connection still is a puzzle to me. However, yes I would agree that the Gospel witnesses in the midst of corruption to those of FAITH. I disconnected nothing from that at all. Rather did connect it :). To both belivers and unbelievers. After all it is the decisions made in the Gospels which determine what it is a witness to. Either it is a witness to a false Messiah, or a true Messiah. Faith or not.

If you are saying that because the judges were corrupt that we are not to accept or honor their judgments, that is wrong. Even today, if they have the authority to judge the law, then their decisions are binding, whether the judge is good, bad or evil. The only exception is if we are commanded to break Torah. The Torah is above all other law.
 
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annier

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If you are saying that because the judges were corrupt that we are not to accept or honor their judgments, that is wrong.
Why make such a sweeping statement? I confined my statements to the Gospels. Everything to do with Christ, and concerning Christ, was an illigitimate JUDGEMENT. Why, such sweeping concerns?

Even today, if they have the authority to judge the law, then their decisions are binding, whether the judge is good, bad or evil. The only exception is if we are commanded to break Torah. The Torah is above all other law.
The Gospels, are not concerning the judgement of the law of Moses. This is what I mean by such a sweeping statement. Rather it concerns the Judgement concerning Christ, and that which concerned HIM.

The Gospels record for us which believe, that the judgements made concerning HIM, were illigitimate. Therefore nobody is bound to their decisions according to Moses law.
 
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visionary

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Why make such a sweeping statement? I confined my statements to the Gospels. Everything to do with Christ, and concerning Christ, was an illigitimate JUDGEMENT. Why, such sweeping concerns?


The Gospels, are not concerning the judgement of the law of Moses. This is what I mean by such a sweeping statement. Rather it concerns the Judgement concerning Christ, and that which concerned HIM.

The Gospels record for us which believe, that the judgements made concerning HIM, were illigitimate. Therefore nobody is bound to their decisions according to Moses law.
Christ's laws are the law of Moses... Yeshua gave those laws to Moses... we see them as one and the same in MJ.
 
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pat34lee

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Why make such a sweeping statement? I confined my statements to the Gospels. Everything to do with Christ, and concerning Christ, was an illigitimate JUDGEMENT. Why, such sweeping concerns?


The Gospels, are not concerning the judgement of the law of Moses. This is what I mean by such a sweeping statement. Rather it concerns the Judgement concerning Christ, and that which concerned HIM.

The Gospels record for us which believe, that the judgements made concerning HIM, were illigitimate. Therefore nobody is bound to their decisions according to Moses law.

The judges acted illegally, otherwise they could not have condemned Yeshua. Still, he allowed it, and abided by their judgment.
 
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annier

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Christ's laws are the law of Moses... Yeshua gave those laws to Moses...
That is why I said, the Judges were illegitimate. Moses law is very clear concerning judges and their office based upon their character. These judges were disqualified in the Gospels. Of course the majority people thought them righteous. Since the legitimacy of judges, is based upon less concrete rules than that of the priests. These judges were just as illegitimate as the priesthood, which stood with them
we see them as one and the same in MJ.
Yes this is why I say, the gospels are a more wide sweeping witness than we tend to historically see them.
 
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Qnts2

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Why make such a sweeping statement? I confined my statements to the Gospels. Everything to do with Christ, and concerning Christ, was an illigitimate JUDGEMENT. Why, such sweeping concerns?


The Gospels, are not concerning the judgement of the law of Moses. This is what I mean by such a sweeping statement. Rather it concerns the Judgement concerning Christ, and that which concerned HIM.

The Gospels record for us which believe, that the judgements made concerning HIM, were illigitimate. Therefore nobody is bound to their decisions according to Moses law.


Since my original post was about the primary purpose of the gospels as recorded witnesses of what Yeshua said and did, as a statement of His Messiahship, I am rather concerned that it turned into another bash the Jewish judges and priests for killing Christ.


John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10:17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”


So, no one took Jesus life, as He laid it down on His own initiative. He laid it down so that people could receive eternal salvation.
 
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Qnts2

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That is why I said, the Judges were illegitimate. Moses law is very clear concerning judges and their office based upon their character. These judges were disqualified in the Gospels. Of course the majority people thought them righteous. Since the legitimacy of judges, is based upon less concrete rules than that of the priests. These judges were just as illegitimate as the priesthood, which stood with them

Yes this is why I say, the gospels are a more wide sweeping witness than we tend to historically see them.

So you think the gospels serve to witness at the corruption of the Jewish judges and priests?

That to you is a more wide sweeping witness seen in the gospels?

May I remind you that gospel means good news, and they are the good news of Yeshua the Messiah.
 
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annier

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The judges acted illegally, otherwise they could not have condemned Yeshua. Still, he allowed it, and abided by their judgment.
I would not say God abided by their judgement. For Christ was not guilty :). However, Christ having lowered himself, made himself subject to PUNISHMENT willingly. For it is the FATHER WHICH GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. It was by God's will and HIS LOVE Christ died.
 
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annier

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So you think the gospels serve to witness at the corruption of the Jewish judges and priests?
Yes, of course it does. Otherwise the decision they made would have been binding. It is only because the gospels recors the illegitimacy of the judges, that the people under their authority, were released from their decision.
That to you is a more wide sweeping witness seen in the gospels?
Yes. More widesweeping, meaning the testimony given there makes the difference between believers and unbelievers does it not? The moment the judges sought to judge Christ through means which disqualified them as judges, their judgment was no longer valid. It is only through the gospels that we have this testimony correct?
May I remind you that gospel means good news, and they are the good news of Yeshua the Messiah.
Yes, good news because of the resurrection. Correct?
 
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Yahudim

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Yes, of course it does. Otherwise the decision they made would have been binding. It is only because the gospels recors the illegitimacy of the judges, that the people under their authority, were released from their decision.
Yes. More widesweeping, meaning the testimony given there makes the difference between believers and unbelievers does it not? The moment the judges sought to judge Christ through means which disqualified them as judges, their judgment was no longer valid. It is only through the gospels that we have this testimony correct?

Yes, good news because of the resurrection. Correct?
This is great. Even when everyone SEEMS to be saying something different, it turns out that they are actually in agreement for the most part!

Hi annier,

If I may, yes of course about the resurrection. But if you carefully look at the occurrences of the of the 'Good News' or Glad Tidings' in scripture, you will see that most are made in the context of the 'Kingdom of God' either coming or having arrived. Does that track with what you have read?
 
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