Originally Posted by Qnts2
God recognizes the faith of individuals, but deals with the children of Israel as a unit. So when Israel was cursed by being defeated and captured by the enemies, it is not just unfaithful children of Israel who are removed from the land but all of Israel, faithful and unfaithful alike. Daniel was faithful, but was a member of the people who were scattered from the land.
Indeed - as that's a theme within scripture when it comes to noting how even the righteous, though they may be righteous, can end up suffering because of the wrongs done by the same people. The people of Israel experienced this with David when it came to the Counting of the Census /God punishing all of Israel in
2 Samuel 24 /
1 Chronicles 21 - and earlier than that, there was the example of the Famine in
2 Samuel 21 when a curse came on the entire land because of an Oath made in
Joshua 9 which Saul had broken earlier. The same thing was also seen in
Joshua 7:1 with Achan's sin which caused the entire camp to suffer massive defeat - and it is consistent throughout the entire Word of God. That's not surprising, seeing that the context of Scripture was in Eastern Culture - and just like today, Eastern cultures
are a Collective culture of Honor and Shame (more shared
here,
here, and
here). If one experiences honor or shame, it flows down into the Household of their entire family/legacy - and it is not as individualistic as the West.
This is behind the reasons why others in the OT often gave collective prayers even though they were righteous themselves. Daniel is an excellent example of this concept - as in
Daniel 9:1 he is giving a prayer of Repentance for the entire nation - speaking as if he himself did not keep the Covenant....even though as an eunuch/exile in Babylon did AMAZING in the Empire and the Lord continually blessed His work to the point
where he consistently advanced and was highly revered for his walk with the Lord. And His development in Babylon was
something that the Lord used to develop Him further than ever before. It is a means of intercession whereby he identifies with the nation and stands in the gap - very much akin to what Christ did in choosing to be baptized/live life as a man (as shared before in #
76 / #
503 ). Be it with Daniel 9 or Ezra in Ezra 9-10 or Nehemiah 8-9 and Moses in Exodus 32-33 & Numbers 14, etc) did when it came to identifying with the sins of their nations even though they themselves never sinned, corporate identity is a big deal.
Nehemiah understood that Israel had been taken into captivity because of their sins. He prayed to God and said:
"I pray, Lord God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments, please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I prayer before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father's house and I have sinned.(Nehemiah 1:5-7)
Due to his intercession, Nehemiah received favor with the king and was sent back to rebuild Jerusalem as governor. After Jerusalem's walls were repaired and gates built, Nehemiah and Ezra, who had also been confessing Israel's sins (Ezra 9:5-15), both witnessed God's Spirit bringing conviction and repentance to the people following the public reading of God's word in chapters 8 and 9. God honored their obedience with a spiritual revival.
This did not always happen like that. And there are, of course, times where the Lord made clear He honored/valued the individual to the point of preserving them - but that did not equate to them escaping feeling the consequences of their forebearers...much like someone who chose not to do drugs/was righteous even though their mother or father was addicted to cocaine and ended up bringing the household into dire poverty - the consequences will still be felt by the children. Those sharing in the sins of the parents have no room to say "But it wasn't my fault" - just as it was in
Ezekiel 18:8 (during the exile) when the Children of Israel were blaming their parents for their situation/using God's word as a means of saying He punished them for the sins of their father (as in
Exodus 20:4-6 /
Exodus 34:6-8 /
Numbers 14:17-19 /
Deuteronomy 5:8-10 - and the Lord had to correct that by saying only those who choose sin shall die.
King Jeroboam experienced that in the life of his son - for after Judgement was declared on him for his apostasy/taking all of Israel into the fast track with it, the Lord told him that the only one in His entire household to be spared was his sick son - for the Lord only found good in that boy while all others in the home were corrupt (
1 Kings 14:12-14/ )
Others such as Josiah are a good case study on this - as the Lord had been provoked for generations by Israel - and it was too the point of no return as far as He was concerned when it came to Judgement. His grand-father, Manesseh, pushed things over the cliff (so to speak) in
2 Chronicles 33 - yet he repented and it moved the Lord to the point of choosing to spare him even after he was taken prisoner. And yet none of his actions to change the damage he allowed were enough to change things. Josiah went fully after the Lord (
2 Kings 23:24-26 ) - and did much in the way of reform. Nonetheless, it was not going to change God's mind on how to address the nation:
2 Kings 23:13
25 Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the Lord as he didwith all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.
26 Nevertheless, the Lord did not turn away from the heat of his fierce anger, which burned against Judah because of all that Manasseh had done to provoke him to anger.27 So the Lord said, I will remove Judah also from my presence as I removed Israel, and I will reject Jerusalem, the city I chose, and this temple, about which I said, There shall my Name be.[
2 Chronicles 34:22
25Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all that their hands have made,[e] my anger will be poured out on this place and will not be quenched. 26 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 27 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before God when you heard what he spoke against this place and its people, and because you humbled yourself before me and tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the Lord. 28 Now I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place and on those who live here.
In the words of another "
It is difficult for Americans to understand our corporate accountability before God, because we are culturally very independent and individualistic people. In the scriptures we witness the sin of an individual affecting future generations in a family (2 Ki 5:26-27) and also affecting a nation (Jos 22:20). In many respects, we are our brother's keeper. (Gen 4:9) God considers us accountable for how we feel about others, and how we treat and relate to them. Our sins affect others and their sins affect us."
Right now, with the nation of Israel's rejection of Yeshua, salvation has come to the Gentiles, so for salvation, God is dealing with individuals for the promise of eternal salvation. That does not mean that God does not still work with Israel as a nation.
I would add - in addition to that - the fact that He still works with Israel as it concerns the Remnant and actively taking others into it who choose to serve him - in light of how many Ethnic Israelites/Hebrews have been turning in faith to Yeshua just as the Gentiles have ....with the Remnant of Israel being built up even though it does not agree with Israel as a Nation (in its state of rejecting God. Both are deemed Israel - but the Remnant will be the one who leads the way in the end - and nation wise, it is because of the Remnant that the Nation of Israel will be worked with/redeemed.
As you note, in the next post, scripture says all Israel will be saved. Again, a working of God on the nation of Israel.
How will this be done?
Well, going back to the Tenakh, the judges and priests were to set the manner in which the law would be done. When the Messiah arrives, the Priests were to greet the Messiah, who was to enter the eastern gate with the Messianic greeting of 'blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. At that point, all of Israel was to welcome the Messiah and receive Him as the Messiah.
Yet, we know that when Yeshua entered the eastern gate, the Jewish people were shouting the Messianic greeting and the Pharisees (who were judges), were attempting to silence the people. Yeshua went up to the Temple, and the priests, rather then greeting Him as the Messiah, challenged Him, trying to trip Yeshua up with questions. This is probably the saddest day in Jewish history, as the Priests and judges had rejected Yeshua rather then giving Him the Messianic greeting, so Israel did not nationally accept Yeshua as Messiah at that time. That there was not national acceptance, that did not stop individuals from recognizing Jesus.
In response, Yeshua tells the leadership:
Matthew 23:
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!
So, what is this saying? That sometime in the future, the leadership of Israel will see the Lord triumphantly step down on the Mt of Olives and follow the winding road to enter the eastern gate, and at that time the leadership will recognize Him for Who He is and give Him the Messianic greeting 'Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. At that time, all of Israel who are alive, will receive Yeshua as Messiah and Lord. At that time will be a national salvation of Israel, when all living will be saved. So, at that time, there will be children of Israel who are unsaved, who will become saved
Can definately see that occuring in the manner you described and thanks for sharing. That scenario can somewhat be more akin to recognizing futility - as in all realizing He is the King (whether they wish it or not) and seeing it as better to submit to Him than to resist