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Body of Christ (Church) vs. Israel

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Dpiiiius, Jan 3, 2013.

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  1. macher

    macher Active Member

    The believing Jewish remnant sanctifies the unbelieving nation of Israel.
  2. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    It's actually the same discussion - seeing that within Judaism that is the way the promises are seen whenever debate has come up and others note that being a Child of Abraham and a Child of Jacob are interconnected - for the view is that the promises and blessings come through the Patriarchs collectively. What often happens (as others noted) is that people hone in on select terms and try to imply they have differing ideas when it was a matter of differing uses of language - no different than when it comes to noting Yeshua as the Messiah King and also the Lamb - and then trying to say one term is meant to symbolize him alone while another doesn't when both are used to describe the same reality of who our Savior (complex as He is) is about.
    No one is talking on Replacement Theology (as far as I can tell) - seeing that it was not suscribed to and people already gave reasons as to why it is not Biblical.

    However, people often assume Replacement Theology the moment there's notice of the repeated times in scripture that Israel went beyond genetics/descent alone - with there being Literal Israelites (i.e physical descendans of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ) who served the Lord and Literal descendants of Israel who did not/rebelelled against the Lord...and there are those who are Ethnic Gentiles attached to Israel and those who rebelled against the Lord/never cared for him. Replacment was never about saying that Israel wasn't just those who are ethnic descendants.

    Messianic Jews have repeatedly noted how there must be honesty whenever claiming that the Lord would never cut off anyone in Israel - as the Biblical text repeatedly shows otherwise, with God cutting off those in the land who rebelled against him - and noted that in no uncertain terms while making new people out of others. A practical example is the life of Saul.
    1 Chronicles 10
    Saul Takes His Life
    10 Now the Philistines fought against Israel; the Israelites fled before them, and many fell slain on Mount Gilboa. 2 The Philistines pressed hard after Saul and his sons, and they killed his sons Jonathan, Abinadab and Malki-Shua. 3 The fighting grew fierce around Saul, and when the archers overtook him, they wounded him.
    4 Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and abuse me.”
    But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it. 5 When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died. 6 So Saul and his three sons died, and all his house died together.
    7 When all the Israelites in the valley saw that the army had fled and that Saul and his sons had died, they abandoned their towns and fled. And the Philistines came and occupied them.
    8 The next day, when the Philistines came to strip the dead, they found Saul and his sons fallen on Mount Gilboa. 9 They stripped him and took his head and his armor, and sent messengers throughout the land of the Philistines to proclaim the news among their idols and their people. 10 They put his armor in the temple of their gods and hung up his head in the temple of Dagon.

    11 When all the inhabitants of Jabesh Gilead heard of everything the Philistines had done to Saul, 12 all their valiant men went and took the bodies of Saul and his sons and brought them to Jabesh. Then they buried their bones under the great tree in Jabesh, and they fasted seven days.
    13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance,14 and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.
    Saul died because he was rebellious to the Lord - and the Lord gave His position over to another. It did not matter that Saul was a physical Son of Israel - as His heart/walk were not according to what the Lord asked for ( 1 Samuel 15:1-3 /1 Samuel 15 )

    Jeroboam is another - whom the Lord rose up from within Israel to help with the judgement of Solomon because of his GRAVE apostasy in I Kings 11/1 Kings 11 . However, in I Kings 12-13/1 Kings 12 , Jeroboam took the nation of Israel into all manner of evil and permanately crippled it all the way to the Exile of II Kings 17...and the Lord rejected Him as well. 2 Chronicles 11:13-15 / 2 Chronicles 11
    1 Kings 13
    By the word of the Lord a man of God came from Judah to Bethel, as Jeroboam was standing by the altar to make an offering. 2 He cried out against the altar by the word of the Lord: “O altar, altar! This is what the Lord says: ‘A son named Josiah will be born to the house of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests of the high places who now make offerings here, and human bones will be burned on you.’” 3 That same day the man of God gave a sign: “This is the sign the Lord has declared: The altar will be split apart and the ashes on it will be poured out.”4 When King Jeroboam heard what the man of God cried out against the altar at Bethel, he stretched out his hand from the altar and said, “Seize him!” But the hand he stretched out toward the man shriveled up, so that he could not pull it back. 5 Also, the altar was split apart and its ashes poured out according to the sign given by the man of God by the word of the Lord.
    1 Kings 14:6-8/1 Kings 14
    So when Ahijah heard the sound of her footsteps at the door, he said, “Come in, wife of Jeroboam. Why this pretense? I have been sent to you with bad news. 7 Go, tell Jeroboam that this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I raised you up from among the people and made you a leader over my people Israel. 8 I tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you, but you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commands and followed me with all his heart, doing only what was right in my eyes. 9 You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made for yourself other gods, idols made of metal; you have provoked me to anger and thrust me behind your back.

    10 “‘Because of this, I am going to bring disaster on the house of Jeroboam. I will cut off from Jeroboam every last male in Israel—slave or free. I will burn up the house of Jeroboam as one burns dung, until it is all gone. 11 Dogs will eat those belonging to Jeroboam who die in the city, and the birds of the air will feed on those who die in the country. The Lord has spoken!’

    12 “As for you, go back home. When you set foot in your city, the boy will die. 13 All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only one belonging to Jeroboam who will be buried, because he is the only one in the house of Jeroboam in whom the Lord, the God of Israel, has found anything good.

    14 “The Lord will raise up for himself a king over Israel who will cut off the family of Jeroboam. This is the day! What? Yes, even now.[] 15 And the Lord will strike Israel, so that it will be like a reed swaying in the water. He will uproot Israel from this good land that he gave to their forefathers and scatter them beyond the River] because they provoked the Lord to anger by making Asherah poles.[ 16 And he will give Israel up because of the sins Jeroboam has committed and has caused Israel to commit.”
    1 Kings 15:29-311 Kings 15
    As soon as he began to reign, he killed Jeroboam’s whole family. He did not leave Jeroboam anyone that breathed, but destroyed them all, according to the word of the Lord given through his servant Ahijah the Shilonite— 30 because of the sins Jeroboam had committed and had caused Israel to commit, and because he provoked the Lord, the God of Israel, to anger.
    There are many other examples besides this of the Lord cutting off others within Israel - those descended from Israel (Jacob) no longer being deemed Israel and taken out while others were given the job and allowed to represent Israel. God shows favoritism (Leviticus 19:14-16, Acts 10:33-35 / Romans 2:10-12 /, Ephesians 6:8-10, Colossians 3:24-25 , James 2:8-10, etc. ) and wants all to Seek/serve Him...and for all who do not, He does not wink at it or give a free pass based solely on where they come from (more shared in #129 #135 #140 and #145 )

    Talking on the complexity of who Israel is and what it means to identify with it, however, is not the same as Replacement Theology. ..and numerous Messianic Jews/Messianic Fellowships have long pointed that out when it comes to them noting the ways that Gentiles are apart of Israel just as Jews are and that Israel was never an "ethnic" gig solely. Unless it is the case that Jewish believers are seeking to replace themselves, I'll take them seriously when they talk on Israel and what it means to be in the CommonWealth of it.

    Revelation has the entire focus throughout being on what the Messiah did - both in judging the nations and in His mercy shown to those whom he redeemed...making one New People for His glory, the Jewish Remnant combined with the Gentile Remnant - both out of the world and ethnic Israel to make the People He desired....and none of that any point had to do with replacing God's love for His people :)
    Revelation 1:5
    and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
    Revelation 1:4-6
    Revelation 5:8-Revelation 5
    And they sang a new song, saying:
    “You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
    Revelation 7:8-10 /Revelation 7

    The Great Multitude in White Robes

    9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”
    Revelation 14:2-4
    And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

    All of it going back to how NO ONE deserves the grace of God or the work he did for us in redeeming us as His people
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  3. macher

    macher Active Member

    The spiritual blessings yes, doesn't have to do with descent.

    However there are physical unconditional promises that pertain to descent/lineage.
  4. Dpiiiius

    Dpiiiius Not Really a Newbie Anymore

    Thanks for all of your posts Easy G , you've helped to clarify a lot of things , including the heathen explanation :) .

    I have a question though , what is One Law theology ?
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Indeed - and with that in mind, it's why I think it's wise what others have noted when seeing how Israel itself is a very complicated/diverse reality. Certain promises for Israel are for all who are within the Body of Israel - be it Jew or Gentile....but others are specifically geared toward Ethnic Israel as it concerns Jewish descendants/the things the Lord called of them (circumcision being one of them and other things asked for in the Covenant their forefathers made). Those physical unconditional promises pertainng to descent do not change the other ones that had nothing to do with it - nor do they change the fact that many of those promises were fulfilled in Yeshua (the PROMISED Seed/Savior of ALL) and could only be accessed if/when they trusted in Him alone.

    A lot, for example, have noted that only Yeshua can establish peace in the Land of Israel - and the promise of land was never an end in/of itself since the Lord repeatedly kicked His people OUT of the land and allowed great harm to come to them whenever they rebelled - from the time of Judges (Judges 1-2) to II Kings 17 and as early as what was noted in Deuteronomy when it came to the Curses they agreed to accept if they rebelled alongside the Blessings if they obeyed. Leviticus 25:22-24 is something many within Judaism noted in regards to Diasporas and how the land is seen today when it comes to noting that the Israelites were allowed to be in the land as Tennats/stewards rather than owners - and they noted that trying to maintain the land by force goes counter to God's calling ( Leviticus 26:33-35 /Leviticus 26 ) when he noted the land would spew them out if it was not allowed its sabbath rests. Because of this and other factors, they note that there can be no claims today that God will condone whatever Israel does - no different than He did during the time of Jeremiah the Prophet speaking to the National Government of Israel and the false prophets who deemed him a "traitor" for daring to say that the Temple alone/all symbolism of Israel would not keep God from judging them.

    Messianic Jews today have been experiencing the same when calling the nation to repentance - and experiencing SEVERE persecution alongside Arab Christians for their faith in Yeshua - and they've noted that they pray for the sake of others being saved...and yet note that the land as it is is not what they deem to be theirs. Their focus is on what Yeshua - the very fulfillment of all things pertaining to the Land (as the OT points to Him - Hebrews 3-4) - does in being the True Inheritance...and thus, they don't concern themselves with fighting for the Land like others did in the NT. It was this mindset that early Jewish believers also had in the early centuries of the Church - and during the Bar Kokhba Revolt, many of the non-believing Jews hated Jewish believers for not joining in because they held to the stance Yeshua claimed when saying “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.” (John 18:35-37 / John 18

    Asher Intrater did an excellent series on the issue that really blessed me:

  6. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

    I believe the nation of Israel is sanctified for a purpose.
    And believers in Yeshua are sanctified for a purpose.

    Both are separated for Gods purposes, but they are different purposes right now.
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

  8. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

    When speaking about the children of Israel, we are speaking about the group, not the individuals.

    While living in the land is conditional, and failure to worship only the One True God can and would result in the people being expelled from the land, the people called children of Israel never ceased to exist. These people, who are descendents of Jacob, still exist and are awaiting the promise of re-gathering into the promised land. So, the children of Israel are not cut off, but scattered. And the land is an unconditional covenant, while living in the land is a conditional covenant. The land will always be the land of Israel, given to Israel by God. (Gods land), even when the majority of Israel are scattered outside of the land.

    Saul being 'cut off' which means he died, is due to personal sin. Israel was not 'cut off' which means cease to exist, as Israel, the people, still exist as promised.
  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    I'm glad to know you got clarification on issues - although much of what was said was in agreement with what others noted as well on the "Gentile doesn't equal Heathen" - from what Miskan said to what Qnts2 as well :)
    That one's rather complicated - although there has been previous discussion on the issue in other discussions. If clicking on the following quote, you'll be able to go back/get a better review on the nuances/details of One Law - good and bad:

  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    The same applies to Groups as well as individuals, Q - per what other Messianic Jews have often noted directly on the matter when the Lord cut off others - be it in the small aspects or the larger ones - if they choose to rebel/sin against him and reject him. There is no such thing as saying "All Jews in all eras will be saved" (Dual Covenant Theology and Universalism) nor is there such a thing as saying "Well at least the majority of Jewish people will be saved" while all otherss who were to pass away at this moment - denying Christ to their end/denouncing believers - would make it regardless.

    Scripture must be the standard - and Yeshua was rather direct on the issue.
    No one is talking about the people of Israel ceasing to exist..as the focus is on how not everyone DESCENDED from ISrael (as Paul said directly in Romans 9) will be counted as Israel or accepted as Israel.

    Romans 9:6–12
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
    In verse 6 of Romans 9, he says, "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." In other words, Paul’s argument is that the promises of God always hold true for the true Israel, the spiritual Israel, but not all ethnic Israel is true Israel simply because they're ethnically related to Israel (Jacob)---just as not all ethnically related to Abraham are deemed to be "Abraham's Children" like Christ noted. That’s his first statement of the argument: "They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." The assumption is: there is a true Israel; God’s saving promises are made to them; and these promises have never failed.

    One can skip past that scripture all day - but the Word is the Word and is clear on that matter.
    All of it - for their sakes - DEPENDENT on whether or not they come to trust in the Messiah (Yeshua) as other Messianic Jews have noted for decades. For that is who will be saved in the end. The REMNANT of Israel - not all Jewish people waiting for land. And there was already scripture on the issue the Lord shared when it came to noting where the Lord changed dynamics of relating to His people

    Isaiah 50:1 reads...

    "Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away."

    In Isaiah 50:1, God is asking Israel if He has ever been unfaithful? God reminds the Jews that He has never divorced Israel; but Israel did abandon God. God never divorced Israel...and the Lord was hurt and angry because Israel had abandoned Him.

    Romans 11:1-5 clearly teach that God did NOT divorce Israel...
    "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
    We read in the Old Testament book of Hosea that he never divorced Gomer for her continued adultery and unfaithfulness. .....for . Hosea pictures God, Who is longsuffering and forgiving (II Peter 3:9).

    Some could consider Jeremiah 3:8 as showing how the Lord divorced Israel...
    "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."
    Doesn't Jeremiah clearly say that God divorced Israel? Of course...although it seems best to see divorce as a seperation from them AS A NATION; but not as His people. This Scripture must be reconciled with Hosea's refusal to divorce Gomer and the Scriptures in Romans 11:1-5. God divorced the NATION of Israel (as termination of a business agreement); but NOT His children (saved Jews). For God never forsakes His own (Hebrews 13:5)...and because of Israel's rebellion, God instead decided to turn to the Gentiles to do His business of preaching the Gospel (and they did); but God never divorced His own.

    Fulfilled in Yeshua - Hebrews 4. Again, there was never anything in scripture on the land being an end in/of itself or the promises being taken ahold of OUTSIDE of first taking a hold of the Lord - and apart from Yeshua, promises cannot be fulfilled. THis is basic to what many Messianic Jews have noted for decades - and prior to that, Jewish believers since the 1st century - one of the reasons why they were intent on taking the Gospel EVERYONE outside of the land of Israel and not focusing on it as something they HAD to have to glorify the Lord since their mindset was that the Kingdom of God would bring all of that back when Yeshua returns to reign and rule. The land was and STILL is God's - given on a RENT basis since the Hebrews were deemed God's stewards ( Leviticus 25:22-24 ).

    It is what it is..

    It also means he was not considered saved, Q. That's also a basic that has been discussed for a LONG time in Judaism. The same with Jeroboam and many others.
    Ezekiel 14:7-9/Ezekiel 14
    “‘When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the Lord will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the Lord. 9 “‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

    Exodus 31:14
    “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.
    Exodus 31:13-15

    Leviticus 17:10
    “‘Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people.
    Leviticus 17:9-11

    Leviticus 20:5-7 / Leviticus 20

    4 If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, 5 I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech.
    6 “‘I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
    Deuteronomy 29:19
    Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do. 10 All of you are standing today in the presence of the Lord your God—your leaders and chief men, your elders and officials, and all the other men of Israel, 11 together with your children and your wives, and the aliens living in your camps who chop your wood and carry your water.

    ......18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.

    When such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself and therefore thinks, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way.” This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry.[a]

    20 The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.

    Revelation 3:5
    He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
    Revelation 3:4-6

    Descendants of ISrael does not equate, as said before to being Israel. Otherwise, you are of line with what Paul noted directly in Romans 9 on how not all who are descended from Israel ARE Israel as God sees it - and that within the context of noting that physical descent alone didn't mean the Lord had it where all physical descendants of Israel claiming to be "God's Israel" would ever end up fully being what the Lord wanted...for it took more than descent - as it was always about lifestyle.

    Of course Israel still exists - and it is evidenced by the REMNANT that the Lord was and still is gathering....with Ethnic Jews from all over the world, scattered as they may be, coming together/remembering the Messiah while telling National Israel which isn't saved that it must accept Yeshua lest they perish apart from him.:)

    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  11. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

    First of all, I talk with many Messianic Jews, as I am also a Messianic Jew, so throwing around what other Messianic Jews have said, makes little difference to me as I know many Messianic Jews who agree with me. So what?

    I am not ignoring scripture. You are skipping the first verse though.

    Romans 9:1
    9 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

    Paul who is a child of Israel/Jewish is wishing he were accursed if it meant his kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, might be saved.

    So, this is rather direct.

    God deals with individuals, but God also deals with Israel as a nation. So, an individual might be a sinner, like Saul, but this is not to be confused with the nation. Saul died, but the nation still exists. You can not hold up one individual like Saul and make what happens to an individual the same as Israel. In the Mosaic covenant, the salvation promised is not eternal salvation. Salvation in the Mosaic covenant is temporal, meaning a person will physically live, have food and water to live, will not die in a war, etc etc etc. So Saul sinned and died at a young age. Unlike the Mosaic covenant, where salvation is applied to this life, the New Covenant has eternal salvation which applies to this life and the next life.

    I agree that not all Jewish people in all era's are saved. That is clear from scripture. But that does not mean Israel is only the saved. Israel is both the saved and unsaved descendents of Jacob.

    Scripture recognizes Israel as descendent of Jacob, some saved and some not saved, and must distinguish between Jewish people who are saved and Jewish people who are not saved. So Paul says not all of Israel is Israel. He has already said that they are all Israel and Paul would like them all to be saved. What he is explaining is that even though they are Israel, not all of Israel will be saved. Not all of Israel will receive the Messiah. And it is within Gods right to do this. That not all of Israel will be saved is not breaking the promises of God.
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Great - and with that, you already realize that the same logic applies to yourself since you've already had a significant number of Messianic Jews - whether here or on other forums and elsewhere - disagree with your perspective on a myriad of occassions. Others live life/talk and walk with Messianic Jews as you do - and thus, it really does not matter whether you agree with others or not since you are not the final word...and that is what others have been noting for a good bit. If you disagree, you disagree - and if you feel something isn't "Jewish", many times it's based on one's own preference/understanding

    That you disagree/say something isn't as it is really is of no consequence in the conversation when it comes to Messianic Judaism - as other Jews say the same of you and any others:cool:

    The issue will always come down to what is consistent with Judaic thought and what actually was shared in the early body of believers/scripture - not whether or not some Messianic Jews agree, since many Messianic Jews also agree with a host of things that other Jews have long pointed out to really be disconnected from anything within Judaism. And that is what the discussion was - and is - centered on. What actually lines up with the Judaic frame of mind.


    Moving on..
    Already covered earlier - had you addressed it....and the same thing as it concerns Romans 4 -5 in addition to other scriptures. As said before, In verse 8 of Romans 9, Paul states the argument a third time in more general terms without naming Israel or Abraham so that we see the principle involved. "That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." This, he says again, is why the word of God has not failed –why the promises of God have not failed – even though many of Israelites according to the flesh are accursed and cut off from Christ. It’s because the promises are for the children of promise – the children of God – and not every child of Israelite flesh is a child of promise. When Paul distinguishes "children of the flesh" and "children of God" he means that not all physical Israelites are "children of God." And that means that the term "children of God" is not a mere ethnic or physical or historical term. It has its full saving meaning just like it does in Romans 8:16, 21, and Philippians 2:15 (cf. Hosea 1:10). And when he then says that these "children of God" are "children of promise," he means that they have their spiritual position not because of their physical connections, but because of God’s effective promise. The promise produced the position. ...AND those who believe in the Promise (fulfilled in Messiah) are those who truly occupy the position.

    And what occurs in Messiah is always directly connected to the Patriarchs. While some consider Abraham the holy firstfruits/root that makes the whole batch and the branches holy, it is more likely that Jesus holds this position. In Pauline theology and throughout God's Word, the Messiah is the only person who can make others holy (Isaiah 53:2-6; Romans 5:18-19, 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 5:26; Philippians 3:9; esp. Hebrews 2:11, 11:39-40). Further evidence is found in Romans 9:3-4. "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel." Paul likens separation from Christ as being "cut off" from Him, language consistent with the olive tree metaphor and Christ as its root.
    No one is saying that there is no such thing as Israel as a nation - although it should not be lost that there were entire groups WITHIN Israel (and not just individuals) whom the Lord allowed to be either taken out or removed from His blessing because they took the name "Israel" and did not live out what He desired. His true people - the Remnant Israel - will always remain and He has never forsaken that - but He is consistent with Himself when it comes to noting plainly that any...and all who will not trust in Him, big or small, will not be a part of His people.

    Note that it doesn't take focusing on one individual such as Saul since the same thing happened repeatedly throughout scripture with entire groups - if being intellecutally consistent with the text and honest on what the Lord actually said to entire audiences. Apostles - who noted salvation found in Yeshua and often came to sharp blows with non-believing Jews when sharing that they did not have any hope of salvation or resurrection when actively choosing to reject Christ.He also spoke of looking to the SON - on whom the Father set his seal of approval - in order to have Life. John 11 and John 5 and John 7 all speak of this in addition to multiple other places. Loving others was a big deal in what he said - but it was in connection with all choosing to look to Him as well. For someone who never has heard of Christ, that's one thing - as the Lord is merciful. But for those who deny Him, he had very sharp words.
    Mark 8:38
    If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels
    Mark 8:37-38

    Like Paul, John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the other apostles preached the gospel, calling on all people to repent (see Matt.3:2; 4:17; 11:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3, 5; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 11:18; 20:21; 26:20; Rom. 2:4: 2 Pet. 3:9). Several times in the book of Revelation, John is amazed that unregenerate people don’t repent while suffering God’s judgments (see Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11). Jesus pronounced woe upon all the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida because they didn’t repent, obviously indicating He believed they had the capacity to repent (see Matt. 11:21). He also declared that the wicked people of Tyre and Sidon, who didn’t repent, would have repented if they had seen miracles like the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida had seen! In both cases, Jesus believed that those who didn’t repent had the capacity to repent and should have repented, in contrast to Calvinists, who believe unregenerate people have no capacity to repent outside of God changing their wills and forcing them to repent (which He only does for some).

    Jesus expected everyone of His generation to repent, because He stated that the men of Nineveh, who repented at Jonah’s preaching, would rightfully condemn His generation for not repenting.
    Acts 2:38
    Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Acts 2

    Acts 3:19
    Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
    Acts 3

    That, nonetless, is not what is being discussed - as what is in view is who will be the Israel God condones when HE Returns - and it will not be an Israel full of unsaved people denying Him or blasphemining the Holy SPirit. That is clear in scripture. This was also shared way earlier when talking about how Israel is made up of both Ethnic/UNSAVED Israel and Ethnic/SAVED ISrael - with Ethnic/SAVED Israel making up the Remnant and being sent to save others from Ethnic/UNSAVED Israel which perseuctes believers in Messiah ...just as Yeshua noted plainly in John 15-16 and other places and just as believers experienced throughout the centuries.

    It cannot be forgotten that it is only the REMNANT of Israel that will be saved in the end - those trusting in Yeshua - and then after His return/rule for all time, there will be no more people in Israel cursing Him and the Lord deeming them "Israel"..for they will be blotted out of His book just as He noted.
    Not complete according to the whole of scripture - as already noted - when it came to Israel also being those who were not descendants of Jacob and yet they trusted in the Lord. It is a caricature to say otherwise and has never been shown in scripture that Israel was solely physical descendants of Jacob - and till that can be shown, it is pulling the cart before the horse/begging the question.

    AGain, if you read what was already said earlier (here in #44 ), all of that was already noted. There's no need arguing against what no one was against :)
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  13. macher

    macher Active Member

    It's because there has always been a faithful Jewish remnant(before and after Yeshua) that the nation of Israel has always existed.
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Amen - and thank you for noting that simple reality: That the Remnant (just like it was with Elijah in I Kings 18 and I Kings 19:18 with those of Israel who did not go into apostasy being saved) is always present and it is that which ensures that Israel remains as the Lord intended it.
  15. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

    I agree there has always been a faithful remnant, but from there, I think I disagree.

    God made eternal promises to Israel. Through out scripture, we find an unfaithful Israel, but a faithful God who keeps His promises. It might be said and it is scriptural that God keeps His promises because of the faithfulness of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but they are in the past. If there was not a single faithful child of Israel for one generation, would the promises of God cease? Since some of these promises were unilaterally guaranteed by God alone, I say, they will not cease. God is the sole guarantor.

    So, at best we can speculate based on God's foreknowledge. Did God foreknow that there would always be a faithful few of Israel so Israel would always exist or does Israel always exist because God promised it? The choice is to give God the credit for keeping His word, or to credit the faithful few for the existence of Israel. Since scripture states that Israel was not chosen due to some superior aspect of the people, and that the children of Israel are small, weak and stiff necked, it is not due to Israel or individuals who are Jewish that Israel exists, but it is because Israel is small and weak and stubborn but God can use the imperfect for His glory. God can even use the unsaved to show His power and glory.
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    The Remnant will always be the ones who choose to trust in Yeshua as He has revealed himself - but as Yeshua told thousands (and more ) of his own people when they often resisted him, whether they listened or not showed who they ultimately would belong to.
    John 10:25-27

    25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me
    John 10:38
    But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

    The entire reason behind why Christ was acting as he did was due to how the people in coming to him were asking for more proof for the wrong reasons.....hoping Christ would declare himself as Messiah for perverted reasons. The entire text of John 10:23-25 John 10 shows this in how the people--despite all he had done for them--still did not believe him. Yet even after that, he did not tell them they could never believe...

    All things point to Christ, whom the Father gave to others to look
    1 John 2:22
    Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
    1 John 2:21-23
    1 John 2:23
    No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
    1 John 2:22-24 1 John 2

    John 3:18
    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
    John 3:17-19
    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
    John 6:40
    For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
    John 6:39-41

    John 14:9
    Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
    John 14:8-10

    John 15:24
    If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
    John 15:23-25 (
    John 20:31
    But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
    John 20:30-31

    John 3:14-16

    14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[a] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[b]
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    John 5:4
    19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

    24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
    28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.................“You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
    36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
    41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[d]?

    45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

    John 5:24
    “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
    John 5:23-25

    John 6:27
    Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
    John 6:26-28

    John 11:25
    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
    John 11:24-26
    John 12:44
    Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
    John 12:43-45 / John 12

    John 12:46
    I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
    John 12:45-47 / John 12

    John n 14:11
    Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
    John 14:10-12 /John 14
    John 20:31
    But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
    John 20:30-31

    Acts 17:30
    In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
    Acts 17:29-31

  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Yeshua was very clear on what He expected of His people whenever the crowds would ask him how it was they could end up as a part of the Lord's own - and He made sure no one didn't know what he was about so that others would be uncertain:
    Repent or Perish

    Luke 13:21
    13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”6............
    22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved
    He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

    “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from
    26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

    27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

    28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

    Paul himself, who wrote Romans 11 and "All Israel will be saved" had a heart to ensure that ALL sought to make themselves a part of the Remnant. For as He noted repeatedly, those Jewish believers who rejected Messiah did not consider themselves worthy of Eternal Life
    Acts 13:47
    When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

    “‘I have made you[a] a light for the Gentiles,
    that you[b] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’[c

    According to Paul, despite the religious zeal of the Jewish people, they failed to understand the gift of God’s righteousness and therefore “his heart’s desire and prayer to God for [them was] that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1).

    Even Jewish people who are zealous for God (Romans 10:2) and are pursuing a law of righteousness (9:31; 10:3) are in need of salvation through Yeshua.

    As for the notion that Jewish people can be saved by observing the Mosaic covenant, Paul wrote:
    Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin (Romans 3:19-20).

    I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Galatians 2:20)

    All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” (Galatians 3:10-11)
    That is why, to the end of his life, Paul reached out to his people: He longed to see them saved. And that is why he was willing to suffer so much persecution from his own people, coming back again and again to share the Good News (see, e.g., 2 Corinthians 11:24; Acts 21-22).
    It is also important to remember that, in Jesus, God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Luke 22:19-20; Hebrews 8:7-12), and, “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear” (Hebrews 8:13). So, Israel’s way to God is through the new covenant rather than the Mosaic covenant, a point made emphatically clear with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, a destruction that has lasted to this day.

    Jesus made it clear that He was the fulfillment of the Torah and Prophets (see Matthew 5:17-19), while the disciples recognized Him to be the one of whom Moses and the prophets spoke (see John 1:45; Acts 3:24-26). After His resurrection, the Lord said to His disciples, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44), commissioning them to preach “repentance and forgiveness of sins . . . in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” (Luke 24:47).

    Jesus told His fellow Jews that if they knew the Father, they would know Him also, and those who rejected Him rejected the Father as well (see Luke 10:16; John 5:36-47; cf. also 9:39-41). In keeping with this, John wrote that “he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life,” and that “no one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 5:12; 2:23).

    Paul had “great sorrow and unceasing anguish” in his heart when seeing how so many of his people were not saved (see Romans 9:2), including those whom he said were “zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Romans 10:2). In fact, it was for those very people that he prayed (see Romans 10:1), “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness” (Romans 10:3).

    IMHO, when understanding these necessary backgrounds/context - one can better understand the "ALL" of who Paul was talking about when it comes to Romans 11. ...and what it means to be a part of a Remnant.

    IMHO, It is difficult to say which mystery Paul is talking about when he says “this” mystery in Romans 11. He could be talking about the olive tree and God’s “kind and stern” actions toward his people. Or “this” could refer to what he is about to say regarding Israel’s hardening but eventually acceptance. In some ways, I think it mostly points forward to what Paul is explains later– and that's God’s plan to save Israel. That is, after all, what Paul is trying to explain all through chapters 9-11. The apostle Paul says God has planned the salvation of Israel in three steps – 1) hardening of some of the Jews, 2) acceptance of some Gentiles, 3) all Israel will be saved. At this point we have some issues that need to be wrestled with. When Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved” we either have to define Israel by a certain set of people in order to make that consistent with all Paul has said about the necessity of righteousness to come by faith in Christ.... or we have to assume all Jews will eventually put their faith in Christ, or that God is going to save them no matter what (which is not consistent with what Paul has written to this point in Romans).

    Some people have wanted to say Paul is talking about “Spiritual Israel” here but that just doesn’t bear out through the context at all points...for it seems clear that Paul is talking about ethnic Jews here. Thus, either they all will eventually put their faith in Christ or Paul is defining Israel in a slightly different way than meaning every single person who is a direct descendent of Abraham.

    It is beyond dispute that Paul and Jesus agree that not all ethnic Jews are actually children of Abraham (see John 8:39-41 & Romans 4:12).

    Moreover, it has always been the case that God has called his people “Israel” when some Jews were not included in that number. Two places we see this in the OT are the concept of the remnant and also through blessings and curses in Deuteronomy..and for more on that, one can see the first paragraph in this post on Galatians 3:10-14. In Deuteronomy blessings and curses are repeatedly laid out before God’s people. The gist of it is, if you follow God and keep his commandments you will do well in the land. But if you double cross God and go your own way, you will be under a curse. This curse was basically considered a removal of the blessings of God and of covenant status with God.

    Essentially, that basically would put an ethnic Jew out of “Israel” and into the same status as the Gentiles (who were also thought to be cursed and devoid of God’s blessings). Others may disagree, but my contention here when Paul says “all Israel will be saved” is that he is talking about “true Israelites” (as Jesus refered to Nathaniel as in John 1:47)…those who obeyed the law and were led by that law, as it was intended to do, to Jesus Christ. This does not mean every single Jew who ever lived will be saved and it does not mean that every single Jew will somehow get a second chance to believe in Jesus at the last day. It probably means faithful Jews will turn to Christ and be redeemed and that in some way, shape or form, there may be more of that to come than we realize.

    Romans 11:26 could also mean that the physical Israeli State of today (or the future)/All Israelites who are NOT saved currently will later go through a great time of trial which will lead to much destruction--and yet those who remain will collectively turn to Yeshua together (just as it seems they collectively go AGAINST Yeshua currently aggressively in disbelief)...and when all the Jews left colletively repent, the Lord will save them---thus fulfilling the prophesy that "All Israel will be saved."

    Who knows..

    As said before elsewhere, there're others who've given some very dynamic thoughts on the subject. For more, one can consider "The Naked Bible >> The Election of Israel and Its Meaning, Part 1" and "The Naked Bible >> Romans 5:12 and Universalism: Applying My Take on Romans 5:12 to the Problem" (). Apart from that, some others that are beneficial, as it concerns the variety of quasi-universalism when it comes to the issue of "All Israel will saved" and none being able to not be called "children of the enemy":

    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  18. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Thankful that the Lord sent His Son, Yeshua, so that those wishing to become a part of the Remnant could - provided they follow through with what He asked for when preaching to the Hebrews of His day and noting how His Kingdom required one seriously change on things....as opposed to thinking all of Israel as the Hebrews saw it in their days would be saved.

    “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).

    “But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance” (Matthew 9:13).

    “Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes” (Matthew 11:20-21).

    “And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:2-5).

    “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. … Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth” (Luke 15:7, 10).

    “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things” (Luke 24:46-48).

    “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38).

    [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19).[/FONT][/FONT]​

    [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins” (Acts 5:31).[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]​

    [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." ( Acts 11:18 )[/FONT]​

    Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, ( Acts 17:30 )

    [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. ( Acts 20:21 )[/FONT]​

    [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. ( Acts 26:20 )[/FONT]​

    [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” ( Acts 26:20 )[/FONT]​
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Being of Israel by virtue of descent and being of Israel by virtue of lifestyle (should one be descended from Israel) is something that it seems the Lord was very direct about to His own - and the goal being to get as many as possible and who wishes to serves will always require honestly sharing how being of physical descent alone is not enough to qualify one for being the Israel that God will establish for all eternity.
  20. Qnts2

    Qnts2 Well-Known Member

    The error is that the ultimate curse on Israel is when the children of Israel are expelled from the land. God recognizes the faith of individuals, but deals with the children of Israel as a unit. So when Israel was cursed by being defeated and captured by the enemies, it is not just unfaithful children of Israel who are removed from the land but all of Israel, faithful and unfaithful alike. Daniel was faithful, but was a member of the people who were scattered from the land.

    Right now, with the nation of Israel's rejection of Yeshua, salvation has come to the Gentiles, so for salvation, God is dealing with individuals for the promise of eternal salvation. That does not mean that God does not still work with Israel as a nation.

    As you note, in the next post, scripture says all Israel will be saved. Again, a working of God on the nation of Israel.

    How will this be done?

    Well, going back to the Tenakh, the judges and priests were to set the manner in which the law would be done. When the Messiah arrives, the Priests were to greet the Messiah, who was to enter the eastern gate with the Messianic greeting of 'blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. At that point, all of Israel was to welcome the Messiah and receive Him as the Messiah.

    Yet, we know that when Yeshua entered the eastern gate, the Jewish people were shouting the Messianic greeting and the Pharisees (who were judges), were attempting to silence the people. Yeshua went up to the Temple, and the priests, rather then greeting Him as the Messiah, challenged Him, trying to trip Yeshua up with questions. This is probably the saddest day in Jewish history, as the Priests and judges had rejected Yeshua rather then giving Him the Messianic greeting, so Israel did not nationally accept Yeshua as Messiah at that time. That there was not national acceptance, that did not stop individuals from recognizing Jesus.

    In response, Yeshua tells the leadership:

    Matthew 23:
    38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

    So, what is this saying? That sometime in the future, the leadership of Israel will see the Lord triumphantly step down on the Mt of Olives and follow the winding road to enter the eastern gate, and at that time the leadership will recognize Him for Who He is and give Him the Messianic greeting 'Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. At that time, all of Israel who are alive, will receive Yeshua as Messiah and Lord. At that time will be a national salvation of Israel, when all living will be saved. So, at that time, there will be children of Israel who are unsaved, who will become saved.
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