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Blow the Trumpet

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    Israel achieved its destiny in the first century when the few remaining faithful (the remnant) established the Church for Christ, so that the promises to Abraham could be fulfilled, namely,

    "in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." -- Gen 22:18

    All the earth is blessed through Christ and his Church, Keras.

    :)
     
  2. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Keras, this is why your interpretation is flawed. Instead of reading, you want to jump from verse to verse weaving together unrelated passages. I supplied you with a full picture and gave you the reference chapters of scripture that will paint the full picture. You'd rather stick to poor principles of interpretation! You remain flawed therefore.
    No one's arguing 2 Peter 3. This is your OP and all the flaws in it. Primarily because of your misapplication of scripture.

    Once again, when it doesn't happen...then what?
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Ebed, it is just your opinion that my interpretation is flawed. And your two pals, you all seem to have the comfortable idea that the wrath of God won't affect you.
    2 Peter 1:19 tells us that all prophecy is worthy of study and so I take that which according to history and the NT, esp Revelation, has not been fulfilled, and point it out in my articles. That the Revelation prophesies will take place in due time is believed by most Christians. To say they won't is a serious abrogation of the Word.
    The judgement/punishment by fire that Peter tells us God will use is described in over 70 Bible prophesies. Why should we not glean details from all of them?

    The OP passage in Hosea 5:8-15 is very informative, as it says the Lord will 'maul His prey', that is carry out His wrath 'like a flood, the certain doom for all of Israel's tribes'. Then He will 'return to His dwelling place, until in remorse they seek Me in their distress'.
    So it will be not just Judah that will be affected, but all of Israel's tribes, that we now know are the Christian peoples.
     
  4. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I don't have "an idea", the wrath of God won't affect me, I KNOW it won't. I Thessalonians 5:9-11:
    9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
    11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.


    Are you seeing the difference Keras? The contrast of OBTAINING SALVATION THROUGH CHRIST is being contrasted to being appointed to God's wrath! This isn't rocket science! What is the picture there?
    Keras, the "propetic word" is the ENTIRE BIBLE...but it has to be IN CONTEXT. You push fulfilled prophecy into the future brother! That's my point. Instead of coming to a prophetic passage and allowing that prophet to "set the table for you", you set the table for the prophet, disregarding what he tells you.
    Let's use this very book of Hosea to prove my point. Hosea 1:1 says:
    The word of the Lord which came to Hosea the son of Beeri, during the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and during the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

    Hosea has just told you this prophecy was given to Judah and Israel...and who the kings were as he prophesied.

    Now let's look at your passage AND NOT PULL OUT OF IT WHAT YOU WANT but what the prophet says. Hosea told you early on in this prophecy God is about to put away Israel...Hosea 1:2-5:
    2 When the Lord first spoke through Hosea, the Lord said to Hosea, “Go, take to yourself a wife of harlotry and have children of harlotry; for the land commits flagrant harlotry, forsaking the Lord.”
    3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.
    4 And the Lord said to him, “Name him Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel.
    5 On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.”


    This is why you're way off of what Hosea's prophecy is about! Right there God is judging "the house of Jehu"...when did that start? It started in 2 Kings 9 when Jehu became king of Israel, he committed bloodshed. God had prophesied to Elijah that Jehu would do this, now Jehu's judgment is coming from God.

    Hosea 1:6:
    6 Then she conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I would ever forgive them.

    God pronounces judgment on THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL Keras! Paul tells us this had already occurred and that it's ultimate fulfillment came in Christ! Romans 9:25:
    25 As He says also in Hosea, “I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
    26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”


    Here you are trying to usurp Paul giving us the facts!!! You're incorrect Keras, and you can consider this "nasty" if you want but your view is erroneous! Lastly you said the prophecy doesn't involve Judah, BUT IT DOES! Hosea 5:10:
    10 The princes of Judah have become like those who move a boundary; On them I will pour out My wrath like water.

    God had compassion on Judah, because they were not as apostate as Israel AT THAT TIME...however they did receive God's judgement but no where near what God did to Israel at that time. Judah's judgment would come by Nebuchadnezzar.

    Read Hosea 5:8-15 Keras... BUT FIRST get the facts from Hosea 5:1:
    Hear this, O priests! Give heed O house of Israel! Listen, O house of the king! For the judgment applies to you, For you have been a snare at Mizpah And a net spread out on Tabor.

    This was the judgment being pronounced Keras! It began as the Assyrians took the land by God's judgment. It started in 2 Kings 15 as King Pul of Assyria begins his oppression of King Menahem. It continued cwoth Assyrian kings Tiglath-pileser and Shalmaneser

    It's all right there Keras! All you have to do is let scripture tell you, and put away your ideas! I know it may be hard because you've believed propphecy your way for a long time. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2014
  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Your reply, Ebed fails to take note of the fact that most prophesies are not completely fulfilled, there is a lot of partial fulfilment, that denote a 'type' of what will be the final and complete literal fulfilment. Paul makes this clear in 1 Cor. 10:1-11...all that happened to Israel in ancient times was symbolic and was recorded as a warning for us, upon whom the end of the age has come. And don't say that refers to the first century, because Judah suffered another exile then, not a another Exodus.

    So you, who have the rather way out notion that you are one of the 144,000, believe you are exempt from the wrath of God? 1 Thess 5:9 God has not destined us for retribution.... REB trans God's retribution [wrath] will fall upon the wicked, but at the same time, we will experience testing, as 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:35 and many other verses say.
     
  6. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Typical "copout' response Keras. The passage you cite is referring to when Israel made the exodus from Egypt and went into the wilderness! That's what Paul is referring to. Here you are trying to make it more than that and justify your *ideas*...another reason you're in error. You do better to leave it at what Paul said which was "Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.". Why are you trying to prop yourself up with this passage???
    When you understand in the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 you understand it's final judgment Keras. You're of the 144,000 too...to bad you don't know that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  7. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Prophesies awaiting fulfilment:
    Obadiah 1:15-21 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations, they will be treated as they have treated others and their wrong actions will recoil upon themselves. My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath, then all the nations in turn will drink of it and be devastated by it. But in Jerusalem there will be a holy remnant, the Lord’s people will be like a flame while the House of Esau will be burnt up with no survivors. My people will possess all of the holy Land that was given to Abraham and those in Jerusalem who lead My people will control the lands of the Edomites, but the Kingdom belongs to the Lord.
    Isaiah 28:21-22 The Lord will arise as He did at Mt Perazim and in the valley of Gibeon, and storm with rage to do what He must do, to perform His task – a strange and alien deed. But now, have done with all arrogance and pride or the Lord will increase His punishment, for destruction is decreed over the whole Land.
    Isaiah 26:10-11 Lord: Your hand is lifted high and Your enemies can’t see Your good will toward Your people. [Let them see and be ashamed.] Let the fire reserved for Your enemies consume them. The wicked are destroyed, they have never learnt justice, they are corrupt and blinded to Your Majesty and power.
    Micah 4:11-12 Now, many nations are massed against Israel, they say: Let Zion suffer outrage, we will gloat over their demise. They are unaware of the Lord’s plans, for His purpose is to gather them like sheaves to the threshing floor.
    Nahum 1:5 The earth quakes before the Lord, the world and all who live in it are in tumult. Who can stand before His wrath? Who can resist the fury of His anger, poured out as fire?[/I]

    ‘The Lord will arise and storm with rage, as He did in ancient times’. Jeremiah 30:23-24
    ‘His task, strange and alien’. We know God as a God of love, but also of justice and it is just to punish those who do not obey Him and who attack His Land. Isaiah 34:5
    ‘destruction is decreed’. The entire Middle East will be burnt and devastated. Ezekiel 30:3-5, Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1:3-15
    ‘fire reserved for the Lord’s enemies will consume them, His anger poured out as fire’. A massive sunstrike CME will fulfill all these prophesied effects. Deut. 32:22, Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1
    ‘My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath’. This will be the third ‘swing of the sword’ Ezekiel 21:14, the final judgement of the Jewish people. Jeremiah 2:9, Eze.24:14
    ‘now, many nations are massed against Israel’. This perfectly describes the situation today and they want to ‘gloat over her demise’. Psalm 83:1-18
    ‘The House of Esau, burnt up – no survivors’. Those attacking Israel will be totally wiped out. Zephaniah 3:8, Zephaniah 2:4-5
    ‘those who lead My people’. Another proof that this all happens before the Return of Jesus. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
     
  8. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    To show the wrong headed reading of these passages by Keras, I’ll demonstrate he's not allowing scripture to do the interpreting of what's really happening in these passages:

    Obadiah is prophesying right in step with Jeremiah in his prophecy. Jeremiah and Obadiah overlap in prophesying. Obadiah was in Israel. In 1 Kings 18 Ahab calls for Obadiah. Obadiah had hid the Lord’s prophets from Jezebel. This is where Elijah does his great "call to decision" to Israel. This is definite proof that this is not a future prophecy to us in this day! It was a future prophecy to Edom for attacking Judah. Elijah sends Obadiah to Ahab, and Obadiah is afraid that Ahab will kill him.

    Israel is still a nation at this time. They are as apostate as ever. One can see that Obadiah's prophesy has NO BEARING on today. This was a prophecy to to Edom of their coming judgement. Compare this to Jeremiah 49:7-22

    Judah did not suffer as Israel did, but God will judge them also. Obadiah verses 15-21 is making this clear. "The nations" ARE NOT the nations of today, but the nations of that day. Note Obadiah 15, 16:
    15 “For the day of the Lord draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head.
    16 “Because just as you drank on My holy mountain, All the nations will drink continually. They will drink and swallow And become as if they had never existed.


    This would occur at the hands of Assyria as they came to power! If one allows the bible to tell the story it is clear that major prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel ALL prophesy of this time. Isaiah prophesied well before Jeremiah and Ezekiel, but this judgment is told by all of them:

    *In Isaiah 10 as Assyria is being used by God to judge the nations.

    *Jeremiah weighs in at Jeremiah 3, as he prophesies of Israel's judgment, and in Jeremiah 4:3 he begins to prophesy Judah's judgment! However, note Jeremiah 3:6, another indicator telling the reader why this is happening:
    6 Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.

    This is the time of the prophecy, these prophets were not speaking to us today! However it's obvious that there are portions of these prophesies where God spoke further ahead in time to the New Covenant, and THIS IS WHERE WE MUST ALLOW THE APOSTLES to interpret those passages.

    Now...back to Obadiah. Obadiah is prophesying the destruction of Edom for their attack on Judah, which is recorded in 2 Chronicles 28. This would occur at the hands of Babylon!!

    Jeremiah 49 prophesies this destruction just as Obadiah did, only Jeremiah speaks to the whole region! This was "A DAY OF THE LORD JUDGMENT"...and people get confused to thinking this is the day of the Lord we look for...IT IS NOT!!!

    I admit these prophecies can get confusing..but when they do, the best hing we can do is PUT OURSELVES in the time of the prophecy...and understand the situation given us by the prophets!!!

    These prophecies that Keras thinks are future prophecies, have been fulfilled. The problem Keras has, is he won't let the bible tell him this, he'd rather ignore the facts given in scripture, and allege these prophecies have a double fulfillment, or something along that line!
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Exactly when, Ebed, did the Lords people possess all of the area given to Abraham?
    All the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Genesis 15:18

    Your ideas and opinions do not hold up, the Apostles confirmed the OT prophesies as being still future. Making the OT to be just historical is simply wrong and makes God's plans for all of time, to be of no effect.
     
  10. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Try Joshua 23:1-5:
    Now it came about after many days, when the Lord had given rest to Israel from all their enemies on every side, and Joshua was old, advanced in years,
    2 that Joshua called for all Israel, for their elders and their heads and their judges and their officers, and said to them, “I am old, advanced in years.
    3 And you have seen all that the Lord your God has done to all these nations because of you, for the Lord your God is He who has been fighting for you.
    4 See, I have apportioned to you these nations which remain as an inheritance for your tribes, with all the nations which I have cut off, from the Jordan even to the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun.
    5 The Lord your God, He will thrust them out from before you and drive them from before you; and you will possess their land, just as the Lord your God promised you.


    Are you going to argue with Joshua Keras???

    Now... Joshua 23:14:
    14 “Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.

    :thumbsup:
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Your failure to properly read the Bible is exposed again, Ebed.

    Judges 1:19 Judah failed to drive out the inhabitants of the plain....
    Judges 1:21 Benjamin failed to drive out the Jebusites in Jerusalem....
    Judges 1:27 Manasseh failed to drive out the Canaanites of Beth-Shean....
    Judges 1:29 Ephraim failed to drive out the Canaanites of Gezer....
    Judges 1:30 Zebulon failed to drive out the Canaanites of Kitron....
    Judges 1:31 Asher failed to drive out the people of Acco.....
    Judges 1:33 Naphtali failed to drive out the people of Beth-Shemesh....
    Judges 1:34 The Amorites pressed the Danites back into the hill country....
    The Israelites forsook the Lord and served the baalim... Judges 2:13

    Joshua's prophecy of God's promises HAVE NOT YET BEEN FULFILLED. Time to get a real understanding of God's plans for His people.
     
  12. vinsight4u

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    Last edited: Dec 13, 2014
  13. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    No Keras, what's exposed is YOUR failure to read scripture properly! Notice what Joshua said in Joshua 23:5:
    5 The Lord your God, He will thrust them out from before you and drive them from before you; and you will possess their land, just as the Lord your God promised you.

    Are you noticing God PROMISED Keras? SO...when God's promises, you can believe OR NOT believe God.

    Now look at your passages above again, and please notice each statement says THAT PARTICULAR TRIBE "FAILED" TO DRIVE THEM OUT...NOT THAT GOD FAILED!

    This shows how poorly you read scripture Keras!

    They didn't believe God, just as we often fail to do. Don't use Israel's lack of faith prop up your argument because you're showing your inability to discern what the passage is saying.

    GOD GAVE THE LAND...THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE GOD, and go take it. Does that ring a bell? It's the same thing that happened when Israel failed to enter the land the first time when the spies came pack with a false report and the people didn't go into the land! The only difference is they have most of the land but they didn't persevere in faith and take it all!
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2014
  14. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    Thanks for pointing that out, Keras. The Lord said that he would destroy Israel if they FAILED to drive out the inhabitants of the land:

    "But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." -- Num 33:55-56

    And, what did the Lord plan to do those inhabitants? He planned to destroy them . . .

    "I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee." -- Exo 23:27

    "And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." -- Deu 8:19-20

    And the Lord kept his promise. He destroyed Israel in AD70.

    :)
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    You two are a laugh a minute! So determined to maintain the false premise of all prophecy being fulfilled, you simply make yourselves look foolish.

    My point: God's people have not yet taken possession of all the Land promised to Abraham. But they will, as is so comprehensively prophesied in the Bible. Psalm 105:7-11

    Israel destroyed? Do you mean wiped out, if so who are the Israelis? Let alone the historical fact of the ten Northern tribes, 'still scattered around the world'. Anyway, as we know from the NT, the true Israel is the Christian people, be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in. Romans 9:8
    Read these prophesies that tell how the Lord's righteous people will go to live in all of the Holy Land; Ezekiel 20:34-38, Eze 11:17, Eze 36:13, Hosea 11:10-11, Zech 10:8-10, Isa 49:1-10, Psalm 107:103, Psalm 50:5
    This is what all who love the Lord look forward to, it will be an amazing time! Amos 9:13-15
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2014
  16. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    You cannot be talking to me, because I do NOT believe all prophecy has been fulfilled.

    That is dispensational silliness, based on a Jewish fable, and on a total and complete misinterpretation of the Holy Scripture.

    Keras, the ten northern tribes joined with Judah under the decree of Cyrus, who was the anointed of the Lord.

    :)
     
  17. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Keras, you're "saving face" now! Let your pride go and examine the scriptures for what they say...NOT what you want to make them say.

    You posted the statements from Judges in scripture LOOK at what they say:

    Judges 1:19 Judah failed to drive out the inhabitants of the plain....
    Judges 1:21 Benjamin failed to drive out the Jebusites in Jerusalem....
    Judges 1:27 Manasseh failed to drive out the Canaanites of Beth-Shean....
    Judges 1:29 Ephraim failed to drive out the Canaanites of Gezer....
    Judges 1:30 Zebulon failed to drive out the Canaanites of Kitron....
    Judges 1:31 Asher failed to drive out the people of Acco.....
    Judges 1:33 Naphtali failed to drive out the people of Beth-Shemesh....


    This is why your view is erroneous...NOTHING SAYS GOD FAILED! These tribes FAILED because they didn't believe God!

    Now...let's go back ad look at what happens when you have FAITH:

    Caleb had no problem believing God, as Joshua 14:6-12 says:
    6 Then the sons of Judah drew near to Joshua in Gilgal, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, “You know the word which the Lord spoke to Moses the man of God concerning you and me in Kadesh-barnea.
    7 I was forty years old when Moses the servant of the Lord sent me from Kadesh-barnea to spy out the land, and I brought word back to him as it was in my heart.
    8 Nevertheless my brethren who went up with me made the heart of the people melt with fear; but I followed the Lord my God fully.
    9 So Moses swore on that day, saying, ‘Surely the land on which your foot has trodden will be an inheritance to you and to your children forever, because you have followed the Lord my God fully.’
    10 Now behold, the Lord has let me live, just as He spoke, these forty-five years, from the time that the Lord spoke this word to Moses, when Israel walked in the wilderness; and now behold, I am eighty-five years old today.
    11 I am still as strong today as I was in the day Moses sent me; as my strength was then, so my strength is now, for war and for going out and coming in.
    12 Now then, give me this hill country about which the Lord spoke on that day, for you heard on that day that Anakim were there, with great fortified cities; perhaps the Lord will be with me, and I will drive them out as the Lord has spoken.”


    Caleb didn't fail Keras! Now try and figure out why.
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Rev20, did you check the verses I posted about the Lord's people living in all of the Holy Land. Are they all 'silly'?
    When I say 'all prophecy', I do know you partial preterists at least believe Jesus will Return in glory.
    The Northern tribes had mostly already moved Westward by the time Judah came back in 536 BCE. A few thousand had joined Judah at the first split and more during the Assyrian attacks, but by making allegiance to the King of Judah, they became Jews. There is plenty of proof of the House of Israel; the Caucasian peoples, populating the Western nations.

    Ebed; 'Caleb didn't fail'. Really? He took Hebron, Joshua 14:13, that's way short of all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates. And who occupies Hebron today?
    The ancient Israelites failed because they apostasied, and God hasn't failed, His timing will perfectly come to pass, all will be fulfilled exactly as prophesied.
     
  19. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    You're missing the point Keras. The point is that Caleb had faith in God and God's promise! He went forward and took the land he requested from Joshua. Look at what he said again...Joshua 14:12:
    12 Now then, give me this hill country about which the Lord spoke on that day, for you heard on that day that Anakim were there, with great fortified cities; perhaps the Lord will be with me, and I will drive them out as the Lord has spoken.”

    Notice Caleb is going forth on what GOD HAD ALREADY SAID!

    This is unlike those you mention in Judges! The reason THEY FAILED, is they did NOT believe God's promise that He had given their enemies into their hand. Had they continued to war God would MOST CERTAINLY have given them ALL OF THE LAND HE PROMISED!

    How hard is that to understand??? So now...the logical fallacy is in your question of post #29:
    They didn't possess it because they didn't obey the Lord and TAKE IT. God had given it to them.
     
  20. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    Keras, the Lord and His disciples, during their ministries, gathered the remaining part of the remnant to Him.

    :)
     
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