Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,

Robert Williams

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You’re welcome. Just thought i’d share my two cents worth since i’ve studied this chapter pretty carefully. We both definitely agree at least that it was not the law that was nailed to the cross and blotted out. How Satan wishes that would be the case! If there is no law, then there is no sin, for sin is the transgression of the law, and if no sin, then no need of a Savior from sin, and it no Saviour, that leaves us all lost and shut out of heaven.
 
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expos4ever

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Whoever wanted to be a part of God's people in those times had to keep all of God's laws. True or False.
True for the very small number of Gentiles who got integrated into the Jewish community.

False for the vast majority of Gentiles throughout the world.

Biblically, the evidence is this: the Law of Moses applied to all Jews as well as to those Gentiles who were integrated into the physical community - there is no evidence that some Gentile, say, 1000 miles away, is required to follow the Law. In fact, as I have already demonstrated through one text from Leviticus, one of the functions of the Law was to set the Jew apart from the nations:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

Do you believe that God did not want to save people outside of the Jewish Race?
Of course I believe this God wants to save non-Jews. Nothing I have posted suggests otherwise.

Why was Israel called out? What was the purpose of God having a chosen people?
That would require a long answer. Since I don't really understand why this is relevant, I will await an explanation from you as to why you are asking me this question.
 
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expos4ever

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If there is no law, then there is no sin, for sin is the transgression of the law,....
Not so fast. If you look at the literal translation of the verse you are thinking of, it says that sin is lawlessness; there is no specificity to the Law of Moses. Clearly, it would be impossible for sin to really be transgression of "the Law", as in the Law of Moses, since millions and millions of people never even heard of the Law of Moses.

And yet they are surely guilty of "lawlessness", and are thereby deemed to be sinners.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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True for the very small number of Gentiles who got integrated into the Jewish community.

False for the vast majority of Gentiles throughout the world.

Biblically, the evidence is this: the Law of Moses applied to all Jews as well as to those Gentiles who were integrated into the physical community - there is no evidence that some Gentile, say, 1000 miles away, is required to follow the Law. In fact, as I have already demonstrated through one text from Leviticus, one of the functions of the Law was to set the Jew apart from the nations:

Doesn't matter. Once we can see examples of non-jews who had to keep the laws then it means it was not made strictly for Jews. God had his people and he gave his people his laws. They were not commanded to observe them because they were jews, they were commanded to observe them because they were his people, and not heathens.

God's intent was to use the nation of israel to evangelize the world so that non-jews could be saved. Through Abraham, all nations of the world were supposed to be blessed. God had to raise up a people to represent him and then to reach the world but Israel had been in rebellion so much over the centuries that they were never effective at doing this.

If you believe God wanted Israel to follow a particular set of laws just because they were Jews then what do you think about God? God has a good reason for every law he has every given and its not just because of your nationality. So you believe that God commanded them to abstain from unclean foods (which modern science has shown are the worst foods for health) just to distinguish them from the gentiles? No my friend. It is because they were his people, and already distinct from all other people that he wanted them to be healthier than everybody else.

So you claimed God wanted to save non-jews. Do you agree that he intended to use Israel as the vehicle to do this?
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Not so fast. If you look at the literal translation of the verse you are thinking of, it says that sin is lawlessness; there is no specificity to the Law of Moses. Clearly, it would be impossible for sin to really be transgression of "the Law", as in the Law of Moses, since millions and millions of people never even heard of the Law of Moses.

And yet they are surely guilty of "lawlessness", and are thereby deemed to be sinners.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

What this verse says is that even people who do not know the written law, have a conscience and have the law in their hearts. Therefore, their conscious becomes a witness to the law in their hearts and therefore, they can be held accountable for sin once they violate what they know is right. Again, these verses in the Easy to Read version.

Rom 2:14 Those who are not Jews don't have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don't have the written law.
Rom 2:15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.
 
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pasifika

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No. I am saying that Paul is saying the Law is good in itself, but when a person with a sin nature try to obeys it, the power of that sin nature is thereby amplified.

Let's be clear: nothing I am saying should be taken as a claim that the Law is bad; what I am saying that human nature is bad, and when the Law acts on human nature, it makes things worse. But God has a plan: he is using the Law to concentrate sin in Israel so that it (sin) can later be lured into Jesus.

And then defeated on the Cross.

What a marvelous God we have.
Hello, yes that is what Paul is trying to put across, that the law itself is good, righteous, holy... BUT the problem is His people who are follow a righteous, holy and good law are Slave to His enemy ("Sin"), so the law cannot make anyone to walk according to God, because Sin has always go against the law which also makes us go against God...Eg Paul 7:14, 17...We Know that the law is spiritual BUT I am unspiritual sold as a slave to Sin...
So, here we can see the problem, sin is whom we are being enslave to in our nature...
Romans 7:15,16...I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, BUT what I hate I do..
Verse 17...As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it BUT it is sin living in me....
 
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Soyeong

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First, I trust you realize that you have avoided explain what you think Paul meant in the texts I cited. Perhaps I did not ask you to do this, but I am doing so now. If I am mistaken what, exactly, is Paul is saying in these particular texts?

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead

for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me


Please address these texts, and show how they are not implying that sin is empowered and or enabled by the Law of Moses.

In Romans 7:7, it says that God's law is not sinful and that Paul would not have known what sin is if it weren't for God's law, so when it reveals our sin, it leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, while the law of sin stirs up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and caused sin to increase, so it is the opposite of the Mosaic Law. The law of sin is not such much a list of rules as it is a principle or an evil inclination. In other words, there is something inside of us that wants to do the opposite of what we are told. So when we are commanded to do something that is that is good, the problem is not that there is something inherently wrong with that command, but rather then problem was that there is a law of sin that was working within our members to cause us not to do the good that we want to do. So sin taking the opportunity through the commandment is acting upon the commandment to produce sin, and the problem is with sin taking the opportunity and not with the commandments being acted upon. This is why Paul said that in Romans 7:13 that what was good did not bring death to him. If Paul had been saying that what was good empowered or enabled sin, then it would be saying that it was what was good that brought death to him, but he said emphatically the opposite.

To use an analogy, it is like a virus hijacking our system in order to reproduce more of itself. The blame is not with our system, but with the virus acting upon it to take the opportunity to use our system to reproduce more of itself.

Now to answer your question: Paul believes that the unredeemed person struggles with an inner tendency to sin - a "law", or fact of his nature that inclines him to sin. This, of course, is basic Christian doctrine - we have an inner sin nature. Paul also recognizes the Law of Moses that his mind, in his unredeemed state, sees as a good thing. So there is no real mystery here: to Paul, the Jew (who has not accepted Jesus) sees the Law as a good and wonderful thing, but also finds that he is fighting against his sin nature.

None of this is inconsistent with Paul's growing awareness that God have the Law to Israel to cause sin to be concentrated in her so that it (sin) can then be concentrated further onto Jesus and then condemned. And so we get this climactic verse at the very beginning of Chapter 8 (remember: the chapter boundaries were added later):

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

In other words, Jesus is not "punished" at the cross like so many believe, it sin that is condemned. Jesus, sadly, dies in the cross-fire, as it were.

In Deuteronomy 6:24 and 10:12-13, it says that God's law was given for our own good, so it is good. The Psalms contain extremely high praise for God's law, such as repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, as did Paul (Romans 7:22), so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will share it. Sin is the transgression of God's law and the problem is with the sin, not with God's law.

While it is true that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and he walked in obedience to God's law, so Jesus receiving our condemnation does not remove our obligation to obey God's law. On the contrary, the fact that he gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins should make us want to go and sin no more by living in obedience to God's law. In Romans 8:3-4, Jesus set us free from sin so that we might be free to obey God's law and meet its righteous requirement. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who refuse to submit to God's law.


Your real disagreement is with Paul; it is Paul, not me who clearly states that sin is aroused by, yes, the Law:

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law

Now, you may well ask this: why would God give Israel a Law that would arouse and energize sin? Precisely because, per earlier posts, God is "tricking" sin into being concentrated in Israel, and then in Jesus. With sin thus "localized" in one place, it is vulnerable to being destroyed on the Cross. This, I suggest, is Paul's argument - the Law sets a trap for sin.

My disagreement is not with Paul, but with your misinterpretation of what he said. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul delighted in obeying God's law, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive. In Romans 7:5-6 were referring to God's law, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive, so it is also the law of sin that arouses sinful passions. You need to give support for your concept of God "tricking" sin into being concentrated in Israel, then in Jesus.

This is not correct logic. It is possible, of course, that the Law could "produce" sin if God is using this tactic as part of a larger plan to "lure" sin into Israel, and then into Jesus, with the goal of cornering it one place so that it can be defeated on the cross.

I don't see how you can deny that something that procedures sin is sinful. God can use what was sinful for good, but that doesn't make any any less sinful. Paul said nothing about setting a trap for sin.
 
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pinacled

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You also make some good evaluations, and yes we are pretty close in our understanding. I certainly agree that the religious leaders and false shepherds definitely stood in the way of new believers coming to faith, however i think we must still consider the context of this verse. You wrote:

“What is against us, are the Philosophies and religious traditions of men.”

However, our scripture states that those things that stood “in the way” were “nailed to the cross”. The opinions of men with their “vain philosophies and traditions of men” were not nailed to the cross or done away with. To the contrary, they are as strong as ever and continue with us to this day!

In the following verse (15) we see the results of the “blotting out” of these ordinances that were against us, which is Jesus “having spoiled principalities and powers...”

  • Referring to the Devil, Jesus said:

“And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and SPOIL his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will SPOIL his house.” Matthew 12:27-29

Going back to our text in Colossians 2:15, the result of “nailing the handwriting of ordinances that was against us” is that “principalities and powers” were “spoiled”.

Therefore, i maintain that it was the record of our sins, which stood as a record against us that Jesus nailed to the cross and “blotted out”, thereby completely disarming the great Accuser of the brethren!

As David wrote after his great sin with Bathsheba had been exposed and stood “against” him:

“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions... Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.” Psalms 51:1,9
Consider for a moment what The Royal Torah declares.

Then consider by whose 'law Yeshua was convicted to death by
 
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ralliann

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Consider for a moment what The Royal Torah declares.
Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Then consider by whose 'law Yeshua was convicted to death by

What law were the people judged by? He didn't die for his own sins.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
 
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pinacled

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Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


What law were the people judged by? He didn't die for his own sins.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Yes,
The Holy Word of The Lord is very clear.

Yet
I've noticed there are quite the talkative persons that ignore The Royal Torah ...
And let their unbridled tongues carry on with an accursed gospel warned about by both ole sh'aul and kefa(peter

Bless those that curse
 
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ralliann

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Yes,
The Holy Word of The Lord is very clear.

Yet
I've noticed there are quite the talkative persons that ignore The Royal Torah ...
And let their unbridled tongues carry on with an accursed gospel warned about by both ole sh'aul and kefa(peter

Bless those that curse
By whose law was Yeshua condememed?
I already answered that. He was condemned by the law of Moses. He did not die for his own sins, but he bore the judgement instead of the people.
The false accusations of sin is how the rulers went about it.
 
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pinacled

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I already answered that. He was condemned by the law of Moses. He did not die for his own sins, but he bore the judgement instead of the people.
The false accusations of sin is how the rulers went about it.
Incorrect..
It was a Roman praetorium that convicted a man to death without due cause
 
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Studyman

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I already answered that. He was condemned by the law of Moses. He did not die for his own sins, but he bore the judgement instead of the people.
The false accusations of sin is how the rulers went about it.

The Law of Moses did not condemn Jesus. He Himself said the Pharisees were "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men." It was their own Law that condemned Jesus, Not God's.

If you can find a Law of God, given to Moses for the good of His People, which condemned Jesus to death, please provide it.
 
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Studyman

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Hello, yes that is what Paul is trying to put across, that the law itself is good, righteous, holy... BUT the problem is His people who are follow a righteous, holy and good law are Slave to His enemy ("Sin"), so the law cannot make anyone to walk according to God, because Sin has always go against the law which also makes us go against God...Eg Paul 7:14, 17...We Know that the law is spiritual BUT I am unspiritual sold as a slave to Sin...
So, here we can see the problem, sin is whom we are being enslave to in our nature...
Romans 7:15,16...I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, BUT what I hate I do..
Verse 17...As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it BUT it is sin living in me....

Yes, very good. As it is written in the very beginning;

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And how did Paul conclude a man should "rule over sin"?

Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the (Spiritual, Just, Good and Holy) law of God; but with the flesh (That I no longer walk in) the law of sin.
 
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pasifika

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Yes, but as we see in the next verse Genesis 4:8 the evil desire of Cain had the better of him and he committed sin...he murder his brother..So Cain will always going to fall into to sin..and so is any other humans apart from Christ...
Romans 5:12..Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned...

The only way that we can be able to rule over sin is to clothed ourselves in Christ through His Spirit, and it His Spirit that enables us to overcome sin, and it’s a GIFT from God...if we don’t have His Spirit lives in us then there is No chance of us being sinless and holy...

The law (written code) point to Christ in whom the very nature of God is been revealed to us...so we can have the written law to follow BUT if we don’t have the Spirit of Christ then we still sinning and remains in our sins...we are powerless against sin on our own...
 
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pasifika

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The Law of Moses did not condemn Jesus. He Himself said the Pharisees were "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men." It was their own Law that condemned Jesus, Not God's.

If you can find a Law of God, given to Moses for the good of His People, which condemned Jesus to death, please provide it.
Galatians 3:13...Christ redeem us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written “ cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole” Deuteronomy 21:23
 
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ralliann

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Incorrect..
It was a Roman praetorium that convicted a man to death without due cause
1.He was put to death for our sins.
2. He was brought to trial by Jewish leadership.
You want to point fingers?
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

He withstood it all without a word FOR US or not?
 
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ralliann

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The Law of Moses did not condemn Jesus. He Himself said the Pharisees were "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men." It was their own Law that condemned Jesus, Not God's.

If you can find a Law of God, given to Moses for the good of His People, which condemned Jesus to death, please provide it.
You just said it yourself, teachings and doctrins of men.
Jesus did not bear the penalty of guilt we do not have. He died for our sins that God holds us accountable to. Not for some doctrines of men that we bear no guiltiness.
 
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So its not the indwelling of the spirit that 'removes' the law because that wouldn't make much sense.
I politely suggest that you are using "common sense" reasoning that, although it has a feel of reasonableness, does not align with what scripture teaches. Consider this from Romans 7:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

I suggest that a careful writer - and I think it is clear that Paul is indeed such a writer - would never say we have been "released" from a law when he really believes that we are "now enabled to follow the law".

Or to put it another way: what Biblical case do you have for the Law of Moses being still in force. Here is a case for it having been set aside:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 [m]by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Surely this "law" has been abolished is the Law of Moses which functioned to mark the Jew out from the Gentile.
 
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