Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,

[SkyWriting]

Can you provide Scriptures which support this? What do you mean by "legalism"? This word doesn't exist in the Bible. I really appreciate your addition to this discussion, but I need you clarify a few things please.

Thanks

Legalism means salvation through the law.
The Pharisees and Sadducees were examples of legalism.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Luke 22:20
And likewise, the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7-8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[SkyWriting]

Can you provide Scriptures which support this? What do you mean by "legalism"? This word doesn't exist in the Bible. I really appreciate your addition to this discussion, but I need you clarify a few things please.
Thanks

Paul persecuted and even killed Christians. After conversion, he "converted" to hating a handful of his pet peeve "Sinners" which he often lists. People on this list have been hated and even killed ever since. This is not what Jesus proclaimed.

 

[Studyman]

I do not understand your point. Thus far, I have (a) asserted an obvious fact - there is this thing called the Law of Moses; and (b) asserted that Paul believes it has a dark side - the Law energizes and empowers the sinful nature in man. I know that seems bizarre, but, to be frank, you will have to dig up old Paul and take the matter up with him. In Romans 7 (and actually elsewhere in his writings), Paul clearly places the Law of Moses in this odd and disturbing role.

I was really just trying to have an honest discussion here. You are asserting that God placed an enormous burden, 610 Laws, on the necks of His People. This is simply untrue. It is not a fact at all. God did no such thing. To say HE did is to speak a falsehood about HIM. Did He give Israel and Abraham His Laws, Commandments, Judgments and Laws? Certainly HE did. But not the burden you are implying here. I truly do want to establish Biblical Facts here, in fact that is the very reason for the OP in the first place. But this assertion that God placed such a burden on HIS People is untrue, if the Holy Scriptures is our source.

I can not find where Paul implies that God's Laws have a "dark side". Man has a dark side that God's Law exposes. But neither God, nor HIS Word's have a dark side, at least according to the Bible. If you can provide some specific Biblical examples where Paul implied God's Words, or instructions have a dark side, please include them in the discussion. If that is truly the message of the Gospel, then maybe Jesus did expose HIS Father's Dark side, and triumph over God in them. Maybe it was the God of the Bible that Jesus came to save us from. But I find no evidence of this inside the Scriptures, only from the religious philosophies of men Paul said to "beware of".

But given what the scriptures actually say, I'm inclined to disagree with your assertion here. It was never God's Word's that caused men to go astray, it was their rebellion, stubbornness, and unbelief in God and HIS Word's that caused them their problems. Isn't this why this same God promised to write HIS Laws on our hearts, so that we would remember them?

It seems that nailing the entire Law of God to HIS Cross would have been a pretty big deal. Can you find one Prophesy in the Law and Prophets which foretell of the Messiah eliminating God's Laws? I think if you look, you will find just the opposite is true.

Please try to provide scriptures to support your assertions, and keep in mind that Jesus Himself said; "Man shall live by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God."

Thank you for the discussion.

 

[Studyman]

Paul persecuted and even killed Christians. After conversion, he "converted" to hating a handful of his pet peeve "Sinners" which he often lists. People on this list have been hated and even killed ever since. This is not what Jesus proclaimed.

Thank you for your addition. I was actually hoping for some scriptures which support your teaching here. The Jews had been killing true believers for centuries, long before Jesus came on the scene.

It would be great if you could show in Scriptures what you are asserting here.

Thanks

 

[Studyman]

Legalism means salvation through the law.
The Pharisees and Sadducees were examples of legalism.

Are you saying the Pharisees and Sadducees were obeying God's Laws? And that is why God rejected them? What was the difference between Zacharias and the Pharisees?

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Why did they need "grace and Truth? Was it not because they didn't believe Moses?

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

How were sins forgiven in the "First Covenant"?

Hebrews 8:13

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

So are you teaching that "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and Love your neighbor as thyself", has become obsolete? Can you provide the Scriptures which tell us this? It is my understanding that it was the Levitical Priesthood with their "works of the law" for atonement that became obsolete. Heb. 7-10 specifically speaks to the
Priesthood, not the two greatest commandments in the Law and all that hangs on them..

Luke 22:20
And likewise, the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

What Blood was required in the Old Covenant?

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

What are the promises? Did the Creator of the New Covenant define them for us?

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

OK, here is the creator of the New Covenant telling what HIS New Covenant is.

After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Before these days how did men receive God's Laws? Was it not exclusively by the Levite Priests? Was there any other way to receive God's Law than through the Levitical Priesthood?

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

So according to God what changed was the manner in which men receive His Laws? No more Levite Priests, in fact, God's Laws can be found in every motel, in every book store, on the internet. Where is the implication that Jesus was to "take God's Laws out of the way? It's just the opposite according to the Creator of the New Covenant.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How were sins forgiven in the first covenant? Were we not required by Law to take an animal as a sin offering to the Levite Priest who would then perform "Works or Deeds" of the Levitical Priesthood Law for atonement? But now, according to the Creator of the New Covenant, God forgives our sins Himself. No more "works of the Law" for justification. But the Pharisees didn't believe in Jesus did they? So they were still bewitching converts with these "works of the law" for forgiveness of sins.

So according to the Creator of the New Covenant of the Bible, 2 things changed.

#1. How God's Laws are administered.

#2. How transgressions of God's Laws are atoned for.

An New Ministry, a new and better way.

Hebrews 8:7-8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Who did God find fault with?

Mal. 2:4And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them (Levite Priests who corrupted God's Laws) when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Shall I not also believe these Word's of God?

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

A New and Better way for atonement and receiving the instructions of God. The Priesthood changed, not the Good, Just, and Holy Laws of God, at least not according to the Holy scriptures.

Jeremiah 31:33

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

YES, THIS IS THE NEW Covenant.

 

[expos4ever]

I was really just trying to have an honest discussion here. You are asserting that God placed an enormous burden, 610 Laws, on the necks of His People. This is simply untrue. It is not a fact at all. God did no such thing. To say HE did is to speak a falsehood about HIM. Did He give Israel and Abraham His Laws, Commandments, Judgments and Laws? Certainly HE did. But not the burden you are implying here. I truly do want to establish Biblical Facts here, in fact that is the very reason for the OP in the first place. But this assertion that God placed such a burden on HIS People is untrue, if the Holy Scriptures is our source.

All you are doing here is denying what I am claiming, without addressing the arguments that I provided. I posted a number of extracts from Romans 7 that, if read at face value, certainly do seem to show that Paul sees the Law of Moses as having the effect of energizing or empowering sin.

Here they are again:

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead

for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me

Please address these texts, and show how they are not implying that sin is empowered and or enabled by the Law of Moses.

You say you want to determine Biblical facts? Well, I am challenging you with Biblical texts.

 

[expos4ever]

I can not find where Paul implies that God's Laws have a "dark side". Man has a dark side that God's Law exposes.

I have not, and certainly would not, deny that man has a dark side. But consider the exact words that Paul uses in the following texts. Is he saying that the Law merely exposes sin? Or than sin is somehow empowered and or enabled by the Law.

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead

for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me

The answer is really quite clear.

If you can provide some specific Biblical examples where Paul implied God's Words, or instructions have a dark side, please include them in the discussion.

Please see immediately above for two such texts.

 

[Soyeong]

I think this is a great question. I believe that Paul is, in fact, referring to the Law of Moses (the 613 element code presented in the Old Testament). It is understandably confusing to grapple with the notion that these laws were "against" the Jew. But there is evidence that Paul does indeed believe that Law of Moses had a "dark" side. Please read Romans 7 with an open mind. Is Paul not quite clearly proclaiming that the Law of Moses empowers (rather than merely "exposing") our internal tendency to sin?

Whenever someone was crucified, the people would write out a sign that listed the charges that were against them and nail it to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed (Matthew 27:37). This served as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to the cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of God's laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160). Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's nature can't be ended without first ending God. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawless, so interpreting Colossians 2:14 as referring to ending the Mosaic undermines everything that Jesus accomplished both through his ministry and through his death.

In Romans 7:12-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, which caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do, and which he served with his flesh, so it is not God's law that empowers our internal tendency to sin, but the law of sin. In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that God's law is good and that he did not blame what was good for bringing death to him.

Within the apparently negative effect of Torah, stated in Romans 5:20 and amplified in Romans 7:7-20, there lies the extraordinary positive purpose explained in Romans 8:3. God has deliberately given the Torah to be the means of concentrating the sin of humankind in one place, namely, in his people, Israel - in order that it might then be concentrated yet further, drawn together on to Israel's representative, the Messiah - in order that it might there be dealt with once and for all.

In Romans 7:7, Paul said that God's law is not sinful, but was given to reveal what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and cause sin to decrease. However, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase, so it is the opposite of God's law. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful or that causes sin to increase are referring to the law of sin, not to the Mosaic Law, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, 1 Corinthians 15:56, and Galatians 5:16-18.

 

[SkyWriting]

Are you saying the Pharisees and Sadducees were obeying God's Laws? And that is why God rejected them?

They were followers of the law and did not love people as a priority over law.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why did they need "grace and Truth? Was it not because they didn't believe Moses?

Grace and Truth is that God forgives and Loves people more than religious rule and law.

 

[SkyWriting]

How were sins forgiven in the "First Covenant"?

Through sacrifice.

 

[SkyWriting]

So are you teaching that "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and Love your neighbor as thyself", has become obsolete? Can you provide the Scriptures which tell us this? It is my understanding that it was the Levitical Priesthood with their "works of the law" for atonement that became obsolete. Heb. 7-10 specifically speaks to the
Priesthood, not the two greatest commandments in the Law and all that hangs on them.

"Why" must and will proceed any "How" in one's mind.
We love God with all our heart and that is why we treat others as we would wish to be treated ourself.

 

[SkyWriting]

What are the promises? Did the Creator of the New Covenant define them for us?
Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
OK, here is the creator of the New Covenant telling what HIS New Covenant is.
After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Before these days how did men receive God's Laws? Was it not exclusively by the Levite Priests? Was there any other way to receive God's Law than through the Levitical Priesthood?
Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
So according to God what changed was the manner in which men receive His Laws? No more Levite Priests, in fact, God's Laws can be found in every motel, in every book store, on the internet. Where is the implication that Jesus was to "take God's Laws out of the way? It's just the opposite according to the Creator of the New Covenant.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
How were sins forgiven in the first covenant? Were we not required by Law to take an animal as a sin offering to the Levite Priest who would then perform "Works or Deeds" of the Levitical Priesthood Law for atonement? But now, according to the Creator of the New Covenant, God forgives our sins Himself. No more "works of the Law" for justification. But the Pharisees didn't believe in Jesus did they? So they were still bewitching converts with these "works of the law" for the forgiveness of sins.
So according to the Creator of the New Covenant of the Bible, 2 things changed.
#1. How God's Laws are administered.
#2. How transgressions of God's Laws are atoned for.
An New Ministry, a new and better way.
Who did God find fault with?
Mal. 2:4And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law."For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them (Levite Priests who corrupted God's Laws) when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.Shall I not also believe these Word's of God?Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
A New and Better way for atonement and receiving the instructions of God. The Priesthood changed, not the Good, Just, and Holy Laws of God, at least not according to the Holy scriptures.
YES, THIS IS THE NEW Covenant.

This all seems correct.

 

[SkyWriting]

I was really just trying to have an honest discussion here. You are asserting that God placed an enormous burden, 610 Laws, on the necks of His People. This is simply untrue. It is not a fact at all. God did no such thing. To say HE did is to speak a falsehood about HIM. Did He give Israel and Abraham His Laws, Commandments, Judgments and Laws? Certainly HE did. But not the burden you are implying here. I truly do want to establish Biblical Facts here, in fact that is the very reason for the OP in the first place.

But this assertion that God placed such a burden on HIS People is untrue, if the Holy Scriptures is our source.

It seems like a burden.
James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
Psalm 55:22
Cast your burden on the Lord, and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved.
Galatians 6:2
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Matthew 11:28-30
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Matthew 23:4
They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
Luke 11:46
And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.


It sounds like it was not the right solution:
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

It sounds like it was not working well:
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Acts 7:53
You who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”

That Jesus was the correct solution:
Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

 

[SkyWriting]

SkyWriting said: ↑
Paul persecuted and even killed Christians. After conversion, he "converted" to hating a handful of his pet peeve "Sinners" which he often lists. People on this list have been hated and even killed ever since. This is not what Jesus proclaimed.

The Jews had been killing true believers for centuries, long before Jesus came on the scene.

That has nothing to do with Pauls teachings after Jesus died.

 

[Studyman]

They were followers of the law and did not love people as a priority over law.

This is what religious men of this world preach, that the Pharisees were following God's Laws, some of which expressly commanded to Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Aside from the obvious errors in your assertion that they were "followers of God's Law", we also have the Word's of the Jesus of the Bible Himself that you seem to have overlooked.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God (Not Follow them) by your tradition?

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God)

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

And then there are the Spirit filled Disciples;

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

I haven't even posted one scripture from the Law and Prophets which also say the same thing over and over and over and over. The Pharisees were not "Following God's Laws".

Zecharias was, Simeon was, Anna was, the Wise Men were, but the Pharisees were not.

Why do you preach to others that the Pharisees were following God's Laws, when the Bible clearly teaches they were not?

 

[Studyman]

Grace and Truth is that God forgives and Loves people more than religious rule and law.

Forgives them for what? What did they do that needs forgiveness?

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These folks claimed to know Jesus, they gave HIM credit for everything they did. But Jesus didn't forgive them. What is the reason, given by Jesus HIMSELF, for not forgiving them? Shall I reject and ignore HIS Word's when they don't align with the popular religious doctrines of the land?

 

[Studyman]

"Why" must and will proceed any "How" in one's mind.
We love God with all our heart and that is why we treat others as we would wish to be treated ourself.

I'm not directing this towards you, but it is an important question that I hope you will answer. "Is telling others falsehoods about God and HIS Word, Loving God with all our heart?" Is teaching falsehoods about the Word of God "treating others as you would want to be treated?"

How did Jesus Love us? By telling us His Father's Truth for our own good, even though we may be offended by it? Or did HE simply follow the religious doctrines and traditions of the land HE was born into?

 

[Studyman]

This all seems correct.

Then why do religious men teach the Commandments of God which define sin, became obsolete?

 

[expos4ever]

In Romans 7:12-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, which caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do, and which he served with his flesh, so it is not God's law that empowers our internal tendency to sin, but the law of sin.

No, you are simply disrespecting what Paul actually wrote. And is incorrect logic to assume that just because Paul delighted in the Law, this does not mean that the Law did not cause problems. I delight in cheeseburgers, but they cause problems (not the best analogy, but I hope you get my point).

Again:

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind;

You guys are bending what Paul actually is saying. Here, Paul is saying that something he calls "sin" has produced coveting. Not "revealed" coveting, but produced coveting. How did it do this? It was enabled to do so through the Law! This is simply how reading works! Please stop denying the obvious just because it does not fit with your theological pre-conceptions.

And again here:

for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved to result in death for me

You guys more or less all do the same violence to this passage. Instead of what Paul actually writes:

I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive

....you take it upon yourselves to get out your editing pen and turn the above into this:

I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin was revealed