Blood clotting

Dorothy Mae

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Behe's ignorance is amply demonstrated by his testimony in the Dover intelligent design trial. From the judge's decision:

"Professor Behe has applied the concept of irreducible complexity to only a few select systems: (1) the bacterial flagellum; (2) the blood-clotting cascade; and (3) the immune system. Contrary to Professor Behe's assertions with respect to these few biochemical systems among the myriad existing in nature, however, Dr. Miller presented evidence, based upon peer-reviewed studies, that they are not in fact irreducibly complex."

"In fact, on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty-eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not "good enough."

Kitzmiller v. Dover Decision
Sounds good until one reads the publications that supposedly do this. I have read a few and the necessary components for the evolution of a complex living micromachine are ignored. It simply "happened" is more often the answer.
 
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They are only separated artifically because darwinists cannot answer the question as to origins. So they arbitrarily start with a living cell and do not allow that question to be asked in many places. It is only one of many times where Darwinism stifles science. Some questions are not allowed to be asked.
Some questions aren't allowed to be asked? Is that why there are literally thousands of biologists and chemists working on that very question right now?

By the way, do you know what a species is? Can you define it without using relative terms?
Why? The definition of species has nothing to do with the difference between evolution and abiogenesis.
 
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Sounds good until one reads the publications that supposedly do this. I have read a few and the necessary components for the evolution of a complex living micromachine are ignored. It simply "happened" is more often the answer.
Can you provide a quote, or better a link, to a publication that says it just "happened"?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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This reasoning is not correct. One cannot simply assune that a mind can understand ALL possible mindless processes.
Depends upon the mind. But what is absolutely true is the mindless process understandings nothing whatsoever. Hence the mind is superior. It might understand the mindless process but the mindless process cannot even understand the simpliest fact.
An ant has a mind. Does it follow that an ant can understand general relativity? Of course not.
Ah, are you a materialist? Do you think the brain and the mind are the same thing? That is what a materialist thinks, that the mind is just the physical brain.

Of course you can find minds that do not understand some matters. But you cannot any mindless process at all that understands the simplest matter.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Some questions aren't allowed to be asked? Is that why there are literally thousands of biologists and chemists working on that very question right now?
Double standard? Now you say the origins of life are not a part of the evolutionary theory and now you admit that some scientists are assuming it is and are working on answers after what, 100 years?
Why? The definition of species has nothing to do with the difference between evolution and abiogenesis.
If you embrace the "origin of species" surely you know what species means? How can you know its origin if you do not know what it is, which is the easier question.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Can you provide a quote, or better a link, to a publication that says it just "happened"?
Scientific articles are more than three words long. Would take a lot of work to do so and even so, unless you have access to Pub Med you would not be able to read the articles. They are not on the net for free.
 
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Double standard? Now you say the origins of life are not a part of the evolutionary theory and now you admit that some scientists are assuming it is and are working on answers after what, 100 years?
I don't even understand what this is supposed to mean. Are you claiming that scientists who work on abiogenesis must also work on evolution at the same time? Even if it isn't their field of study? Chemists must also work on the differences between various species of cats?

If you embrace the "origin of species" surely you know what species means?
I do have a decent understanding of what species means. For the most part it is a group of individuals who can only mate and produce fertile offspring with individuals like themselves. It is a difficult concept to put a precise definition on.

Can you define "kind"?

How can you know its origin if you do not know what it is, which is the easier question.
I know that giraffes and bats are different species so I can study them to determine how they have developed over time. I don't have to know the origin of the first cellular life to study bats or giraffes.
 
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Depends upon the mind. But what is absolutely true is the mindless process understandings nothing whatsoever. Hence the mind is superior. It might understand the mindless process but the mindless process cannot even understand the simpliest fact.
Why would a mindless process need to understand facts? My car's engine doesn't need to know where gas comes from to perform at optimal capability.
 
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Scientific articles are more than three words long.
So is my Master's Thesis. What's you point?

Would take a lot of work to do so and even so, unless you have access to Pub Med you would not be able to read the articles. They are not on the net for free.
I have access to PubMed through my university. Feel free to post any article that says that "the necessary components for the evolution of a complex living micromachine" just "happened".
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I don't even understand what this is supposed to mean. Are you claiming that scientists who work on abiogenesis must also work on evolution at the same time? Even if it isn't their field of study? Chemists must also work on the differences between various species of cats?
Evolution is a philosophy, a world view. Cats are not. And evolution clams to be science. Cats do not.
I do have a decent understanding of what species means. For the most part it is a group of individuals who can only mate and produce fertile offspring with individuals like themselves.
Wrong. Different Genus can mate as well as some classes. You don’t know at all.

It is a difficult concept to put a precise definition on.


I know that giraffes and bats are different species so I can study them to determine how they have developed over time. I don't have to know the origin of the first cellular life to study bats or giraffes.
No you can’t because you have no examples of this in the fossil record of this. You have to make up story about it. It’s history not science at best.
 
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I have access to PubMed through my university. Feel free to post any article that says that "the necessary components for the evolution of a complex living micromachine" just "happened".
I'd like to see this, too. For that matter, I'd like to any of the scientific papers on the subject @Dorothy Mae read.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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So is my Master's Thesis. What's you point?

I have access to PubMed through my university. Feel free to post any article that says that "the necessary components for the evolution of a complex living micromachine" just "happened".
If they don’t explain their origin, it’s assumed they just happened. A priori.
 
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Evolution is a philosophy, a world view. Cats are not. And evolution clams to be science. Cats do not.
Ridiculous. Evolution is no more a philosophy than gravity is. Not to mention there is more evidence for how evolution happens than there is for how gravity happens.

Wrong. Different Genus can mate as well as some classes. You don’t know at all.
Then you won't have any trouble giving a couple of examples of different genus' that can mate together and different classes that can mate together.

I'm extremely interested in seeing examples of different classes that can interbreed. Since a biological class is mammals, reptiles, birds, fish, etc., I can't wait to read the ground breaking reports on how say how cats mate with sparrows. Or maybe sharks mating with spiders.

No you can’t because you have no examples of this in the fossil record of this. You have to make up story about it. It’s history not science at best.
Are you seriously claiming there are no fossil records of bats or giraffes?
 
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Pub med won’t tell you what I read.
You stated (important part in bold):

Scientific articles are more than three words long. Would take a lot of work to do so and even so, unless you have access to Pub Med you would not be able to read the articles. They are not on the net for free.
Why would you say that if having access to PubMed wouldn't allow us to read what you did?
 
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If they don’t explain their origin, it’s assumed they just happened. A priori.
:doh:That's like claiming that if an architect doesn't explain where cinder blocks come from when designing a house, she assumes that cinder blocks just happen. That's one of the more ridiculous things I've ever read.
 
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Define species? Sure! Define red. Is red-orange red ? How about plum or other red-purples? Some species overlap slightly into others ( humans and Neanderthals come to mind here) Reality is just not as cut and dried as we’d like it to be and we use a set vocabulary to describe some things that aren’t set; that are a little wavy around the borders
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Define species? Sure! Define red. Is red-orange red ? How about plum or other red-purples? Some species overlap slightly into others ( humans and Neanderthals come to mind here) Reality is just not as cut and dried as we’d like it to be and we use a set vocabulary to describe some things that aren’t set; that are a little wavy around the borders
Examples are not a definition.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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:doh:That's like claiming that if an architect doesn't explain where cinder blocks come from when designing a house, she assumes that cinder blocks just happen. That's one of the more ridiculous things I've ever read.
The difference is an architect CAN explain where the blocks came from. They don’t pretend isn’t not a part of building a facility and belittle anyone who asks where.
 
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