LDS Blood Atonement

ViaCrucis

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You do not know who sins and who doesn't. You are making assumptions.

Might as well say that I'm making assumptions about who breathes and who doesn't. Everyone sins. Full stop.

The only human being in the history of the universe who was without sin is Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Rescued One

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I don't mind if you disagree with me or not, but it is your crass way of disagreeing.

Your answer was NO, this is how it is, followed by JS is always a liar. It just gets tiresome and a bit unChristian like.

The FACT that Joseph Smith taught lies is evident.

And I responded to this:
In the bible it says:
Matthew 12:31-33 King James Version (KJV)
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

So, now we know there are some grievous sins that are not covered by Jesus's atoning sacrifice.

There is only ONE sin that will not be forgiven: Matthew 12:31.

JS says that some forms of murder are in fact sins committed against the Holy Ghost.
BY said the same thing.
Their solution was that a person in that position, without grace, may sacrifice himself and spill his own blood in the right mind, in order to receive some grace from Jesus, in the next world.

Murder is still murder. Which verse tells us that it can't be forgiven? BTW, if we belong to Jesus we are walking in the Light. Murder is definitely not following the Good Shepherd.

John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

I'm very sorry that my post offended you. Will you forgive me?
 
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CharismaticLady

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If that's what you got out of what I said then either I wasn't being clear enough or you misunderstood what I was saying.

1 John 1:8 is absolutely talking about Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

In a nutshell, what do you think I believe, because you don't seem to respect me personally. But, I can see what you mean. This is the first time I've seen you post anything I can agree with, and I give credit where credit is due.
 
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He is the way

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Might as well say that I'm making assumptions about who breathes and who doesn't. Everyone sins. Full stop.

The only human being in the history of the universe who was without sin is Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
Everyone has sinned. that does not mean people have to continue to sin. After Jesus forgave someone of their sins He said sin no more, and He meant it. Paul said that once we know the way of righteousness we should not sin:
(New Testament | Romans 6:12 - 16)

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(New Testament | Hebrews 10:26)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

(New Testament | 1 John 5:3)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 
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mmksparbud

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You know, you are not a good person. I tell you why I think we at one time were pretty high on blood atonement. And you again, spit in my face. Hope Jesus doesn't disagree with you.

The rules state top address the post, not the poster---Nobody has said you are not a good person, delusional, mislead, brainwashed, maybe---but nobody said a bad person---that description is reserved for JS and BY. And I do not see where anyone has spit in your face---again, that's reserved for JS and BY.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Not according to God.

We can wax philosophical about the temporal consequences of different sins, and how determining intentionally to sin compounds sin with sin. But at the end of the day all sin is a death-wound. And without grace it absolutely will destroy us.

In a nutshell, what do you think I believe, because you don't seem to respect me personally. But, I can see what you mean. This is the first time I've seen you post anything I can agree with, and I give credit where credit is due.

Based on your statements I've read, and your designation of Charismatic, I assume you subscribe to the false teaching of Christian impeccability and are part of the broader Charismatic tradition.

I have no ill-will toward you, as such nothing here is personal. As far as the beliefs and doctrines you are promoting, no I don't respect those. I think the things you believe are immensely dangerous and are the path toward destruction. Dangerous doctrines aren't just a matter of being wrong, but about damaging and hurting the faith of the faithful, as St. Paul said to Timothy, that we are to hold onto "faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith," (1 Timothy 1:19).

You, the person, I respect you. I try to make an effort to respect all persons. But I can respect you and believe in your human dignity and worth without agreeing with you.

The things I'm saying to you I'm not saying to be mean. My goal isn't to hurt you, shame you, or attack you. But I absolutely will attack those beliefs and ideas which I regard as not just wrong, but dangerous. If I see you steering your ship into sharp rocks, it would be abhorrent of me not to warn you that there are rocks ahead.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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CharismaticLady

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We can wax philosophical about the temporal consequences of different sins, and how determining intentionally to sin compounds sin with sin. But at the end of the day all sin is a death-wound. And without grace it absolutely will destroy us.



Based on your statements I've read, and your designation of Charismatic, I assume you subscribe to the false teaching of Christian impeccability and are part of the broader Charismatic tradition.

I have no ill-will toward you, as such nothing here is personal. As far as the beliefs and doctrines you are promoting, no I don't respect those. I think the things you believe are immensely dangerous and are the path toward destruction. Dangerous doctrines aren't just a matter of being wrong, but about damaging and hurting the faith of the faithful, as St. Paul said to Timothy, that we are to hold onto "faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith," (1 Timothy 1:19).

You, the person, I respect you. I try to make an effort to respect all persons. But I can respect you and believe in your human dignity and worth without agreeing with you.

The things I'm saying to you I'm not saying to be mean. My goal isn't to hurt you, shame you, or attack you. But I absolutely will attack those beliefs and ideas which I regard as not just wrong, but dangerous. If I see you steering your ship into sharp rocks, it would be abhorrent of me not to warn you that there are rocks ahead.

-CryptoLutheran

As far as dangerous teachings, there are none so dangerous as Martin Luther's. I'm thankful mine are the opposite of his.
 
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ViaCrucis

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As far as dangerous teachings, there are none so dangerous as Martin Luther's. I'm thankful mine are the opposite of his.

There are plenty of things Dr. Luther said and believed that one should rightly reject and condemn. But without actually knowing which things you are talking about it's literally impossible to respond.

And if you want to debate Luther's positions, that is probably best elsewhere on the forum.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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CharismaticLady

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There are plenty of things Dr. Luther said and believed that one should rightly reject and condemn. But without actually knowing which things you are talking about it's literally impossible to respond.

And if you want to debate Luther's positions, that is probably best elsewhere on the forum.

-CryptoLutheran

Luther was a doctor? I thought he had been a monk.
 
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Rescued One

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As far as dangerous teachings, there are none so dangerous as Martin Luther's. I'm thankful mine are the opposite of his.

False prophets of Mormonism are more dangerous.
 
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CharismaticLady

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False prophets of Mormonism are more dangerous.

Do you happen to know what secret thing happens when a couple goes to the temple to be married. I had a neighbor who got married in the temple and she said part of the ceremony was secret. (She hinted that it was supernatural)
 
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Ironhold

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Do you happen to know what secret thing happens when a couple goes to the temple to be married. I had a neighbor who got married in the temple and she said part of the ceremony was secret. (She hinted that it was supernatural)

Not even close.

As to why it isn't talked about, look to Jesus' warnings about "pearls before swine" and then look at the way critics of the church openly mock and degrade what does come out.

This actually culminated in an incident a few years ago where a street preacher went up to Temple Square in Salt Lake City and proceeded to cleanse his posterior with a set of temple garments.

There's a reason why most non-LDS ministers in Salt Lake City practically hide under their desks when the street preachers roll into town...
 
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Peter1000

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The FACT that Joseph Smith taught lies is evident.

And I responded to this:


There is only ONE sin that will not be forgiven: Matthew 12:31.



Murder is still murder. Which verse tells us that it can't be forgiven? BTW, if we belong to Jesus we are walking in the Light. Murder is definitely not following the Good Shepherd.

John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

I'm very sorry that my post offended you. Will you forgive me?
Of course I will, thank you for asking. Civility is truly the way of God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Not even close.

As to why it isn't talked about, look to Jesus' warnings about "pearls before swine" and then look at the way critics of the church openly mock and degrade what does come out.

This actually culminated in an incident a few years ago where a street preacher went up to Temple Square in Salt Lake City and proceeded to cleanse his posterior with a set of temple garments.

There's a reason why most non-LDS ministers in Salt Lake City practically hide under their desks when the street preachers roll into town...

In antiquity Christians were accused of engaging in cannibalistic orgies by many in the Roman Empire. Mocked, ridiculed, and accused of all sorts of false accusations and rumors because of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

The thing is, instead of making it a secret, early Christians clearly explained exactly what they did and what they believed.

And so, sometime shortly before 150 AD St. Justin Martyr wrote a detailed apology and addressed it to the Emperor and Roman Senate personally. And in it this is what he wrote,

"But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to 'so be it'. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

And this food is called among us Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. ...

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
" - St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 65-67

Rather than hiding, instead the precise details of what goes on in those sacred meetings were clearly expressed and described.

Did that stop the Romans from making their false accusations? Of course not. And Justin was rounded up along with several other prominent Christians and martyred, for which he received his honorific, ο Μάρτυρας, "The Martyr".

The world is going to ridicule. That doesn't mean keeping things secret and in the dark.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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